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Subject: Gurupies 32 team keeper league discussion

Posted by: rockafellerskank - Sustainer [456181014] Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 01:11

In keeping with Guru's request to keep recruitment out of the main forum, I'm going to direct those that replied to my e-mail here to post questions/comments for open discussion. I'll try to respond as often as I can.

As I stated in my e-mail, I sent out 84 invitations. If we can get 20-25 "tentative" yes responses in 1 week, we can do some additional recruiting. I'm not planning to be a jerk out who can/can't play, but I want people with solid reputations for playing to the end. I'd rather have owners trying hard than owners that quit if they don't get off to a good start.

Please post any questions comment you may have about my original e-mail. I have already set up the CBS site. It's free until 8/19/02 (at which time I have to pay the $120.00), but we should know where we stand by then.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 01:27

Here are some changes that I have re-thought since the original e-mail:

1QB, 2RB, 2WR, 1TE, 1D/ST, 1K, 1 Flex, + 7 Bench = 16 This cust the original draft to 16 picks which will be 8+ hours if everyone uses the 60 seconds alotted to them! I have some concerns about the time the draft will take. After 60 seconds, you will be auto-picked by the computer. Absent owners will be auto-picked too.

Expansion after week 2 = add 1 bench = 17 via slow draft (reverse standings)
Expansion after week 3 = add 1 bench = 18 via slow draft (reverse standings) This will get the rosters up to 17, then 18 players as I originally wanted plus the weekest teams will ge to chosse first to get some parity. Besides, there are always rookies emerging or sleepers that will be intersting. his will NOT be part if the 6 ree agenst moves each team is allowed. But, you can make free aent picks ups in weeks 1,2,3 based on a waiver system before the "supplemental draft" The suplementsal draft(s) will be via posting picks on this forum. Supplemental picks will begin at the end of week 3 and 4 respectively.

Change D to D + ST only Since there are only 32 teams, once you choose your "D" you will live withit forever (unless you trade). This will force owners to put much though into when to take it. You "d" will also serve as your Special Teams (IE kickoffs and punt returns) too. So If you take the Rams, you get BOTH "D" and "ST" for them.

12 keepers + D/ST (manditory) Tis means 13 of your 18 will be on your team next year

Team Name = NFL team
Schedule follows NFL schedule. This serves 2 purposes. 1) To model the NFL as realistically as possible. 2) Our schedule will folow the NFL schedule year after year. Bye teams will simply play each other as we now have 32 NFL teams. I put AFC teams in either east/west division and NFC teams in North/South divisions as we have 4 divisions of 8 teams each. (4 is all the webiste will allow). NFL team names will be given out first come/first serve vie e-mail request to me. I already have the Steelers!

Draft Time / draft robot I set it up for 8/31/02 to be as close to the NFL season as possible, yet still on the weekend. I don't have much flexibility here. It's hard to pick any time that works for 32 people, so please try to clear your calendar. Keep in mind, you will only be picking once every 30-60 minutes as the draft "snakes" So, you don't have to sit by your computer all day. If yo are not logged on or not at your computer, the website will select the highest ranked player for you automatically after 60 seconds. I also think it must be on a weekend as opposed to a weekeday. I set it to start at 1P EST, but this couod be changed

FG = 3 + bonus for distance / not .10 per yard. This is jsut to simplfy

Pass 2-point conversions = only +1 2 points for this is too close to a TD of 3 points

Add sack = 1 point each Just forgot ths category.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 01:29

Just FYI- I have 7 "yes" responses so far (in 2 hours).

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 01:55

cut/paste from the website. I did some tweaking on the "D" points allowed scoring. .....

Offensive Scoring
Stat Name Value Action
PaTD Passing TDs 3 points each Edit · Delete
PaInt Passing Interceptions -3 points each Edit · Delete
Pa2P Passing Two-point Conversion 1 point each Edit · Delete
RuTD Rushing TDs 6 points each Edit · Delete
Ru2P Rushing Two-point Conversion 2 points each Edit · Delete
ReTD Receiving TDs 6 points each Edit · Delete
Re2P Receiving Two-point Conversion 2 points each Edit · Delete
FL Fumbles Lost, Including ST plays -3 points each Edit · Delete
RuReYd Rushing and Receiving Yards 1 - 999 yards = .1 points for every 1 yard
Edit · Delete
FG Field Goals 3 points each
Plus .5 points for FG between 35 and 40 yards
Plus 1 point for FG between 41 and 45 yards
Plus 1.5 points for FG between 46 and 50 yards
Plus 2 points for FG between 51 and 999 yards Edit · Delete
XP Extra Points 1 point each Edit · Delete

Add a new Offensive Stat Category

Defensive Scoring
Stat Name Value Action
DTD Total Defensive and Special Teams TDs 6 points each Edit · Delete
SACK Sack 1 point each Edit · Delete
STY Safety 2 points each Edit · Delete
Int Interceptions 2 points each Edit · Delete
PA Points Against, Total Points Scored 0 - 0 points = 21 points
1 - 1 point = 20 points
2 - 2 points = 19 points
3 - 3 points = 18 points
4 - 4 points = 17 points
5 - 5 points = 16 points
6 - 6 points = 15 points
7 - 7 points = 14 points
8 - 8 points = 13 points
9 - 9 points = 12 points
10 - 10 points = 11 points
11 - 11 points = 10 points
12 - 12 points = 9 points
13 - 13 points = 8 points
14 - 14 points = 7 points
15 - 15 points = 6 points
16 - 16 points = 5 points
17 - 17 points = 4 points
18 - 18 points = 3 points
19 - 19 points = 2 points
20 - 20 points = 1 point
21 - 21 points = 0 points
22 - 28 points = 0 points
29 - 35 points = -3 points
36 - 42 points = -5 points
43 - 999 points = -7 points
E

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 02:30

Answers to a few question that have come up:

The site does allow you to pre-rank players and use a queue if you can't make the draft or you are away when your turn comes up. It is HIGHLY suggested that you do this!

Draft order will be determined at random (the site does this) once all 32 teams are in place.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 12:12

first 10 possible participants (along with team affiliations if given to me):

rockafellerskank (Steelers)
Perm Dude
APerfect10 (Ravens)
Ref
Azdbacker (Packers)
coldwater coyotes
wazuup_guy (NY Giants)
Craig Turley
Brad Taylor
Baldwin

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 12:18

suggestions that have been made:

$10.00 to play ($3.75 covers the website cost) I'm OK with adding some extra money so there is a prize, but from previous experience, I think it may be difficult to get 31 others to agree to it and actually pay it. If we can pull it off, I'm OK with it, but don't want to make it manditory yet.

Only have 24 teams as opposed to 32. I'd really prefer to get to 32 QUALITY owners if possible. It's early in the process, so if we die off on participation, I'd rather have 24 good owners than expand and have some (8?) duds. The whole premise behind the 32 is to parallel how thin/tough talent is to get in the NFL. I'd prefer to stay at 32, but let's see how it goes.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 13:06

Blue Balls &
CCRider (Chicago Bears)

We are at 12 and counting.....

rfs ®

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 13:57

Why is it only 3 pts to a TD in PASSING? QB's are that valuable, if they do happen to get a little more TD's than say an RB (Faulk isn't an RB, he's SUPERMAN ;)

(If this thread isn't made for such suggestions, I will self-edit, and maybe create another thread ?)

BB

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 14:08

#9) BB - This thread is for suggestions.

I have been mulling over the QB passing TDs.... While it's routine for a QB to pass for 2,3,4 TDs per game, a RB gets 0,1,2. I wanted to "equate" the star RB with the star QB. My initial though is to raise QB passing TDs to 4.5 that way a 3TD (13.5) game for a QB is close to equal= to a 2TD (12.0) game for a RB. I think part of the strategy in drafting will be deciding between a top flight QB or a top flight RB. If the QB is too valuable, it will make the decision a no brainer in favor of the QB.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 14:19

Passing TDs has been changed to 4.5 points. I think this better reflects a QBs value.

rfs ®

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 21693013
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 14:23

I think touchdowns should be of equal value for each position. The balance of scoring comes about when you add X pts per Y yds for each position.

ie) 1 pt per 50 yds passing, 1 pt per 25 yds rushing, 1 pt per 25 yds receiving, etc.

If you are set on not using a scoring system, as I've mentioned above, then you will need to have TD's be of unequal value for each position.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 14:38

IF there are less than 32 teams--say 24 then you can always dump a DEF or ST.

My favorite scoring system I've used playing the last several years in a CBS League was 1 pt per 10 yds ruching or receiving. 10 pts for a TD. Bonus of 3 pts for every 100 yds rush/rec or 300 yds passing. FG was 3 under 40 4 up to 49 and 5 for over 50. 1 pt PAT. (2 for 2 pt conversion).

Also will this be H2H or Roto? I must have missed that.

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 14:44

H2H

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 15:10

AP10 #12) I'm worried about having passing touchdowns = 6 (same as running / receiving) in a league this deep. If we do, don't you think the first X picks are going to be QBs? (Faulk excepted) and the guy who picks 27, 28, 29th has no chance to really compete VS a Jeff Garcia or Culpepper. My goal is to try to tempt some first round picks towards strategy (IE medium ranked QB or good RB? // IE bad QB or good WR?) It's easier to throw for TDs than to catch or run for one, therefore they are more common, therefore, shouldn't they be worth slightly less? I just don't want round 1 to be atotal QB lottery or those that draft last will be at a disadvantage.

As far as X points for Y yards. I want to use the .05/.10 system (ratio negotiable) as it will cut down on ties, thus your player actually gets a fraction of a point for each yard gained. Do you think it's fair a passer of 201 yards gets the same as a passer of 249 yards. In my system, he who passes/rushes/receives more gets more -- even if it is slight.

Ref #13) I know 32 teams might be biting off more than i can chew, but one of the premesis of the league is to have to mirror what real NFL teams do. IE is Dallas D sucks, Jerry Jones can't just toss them and pick upa new "D" from the free agent wire. Thsi will force owners to put some longterm thought into how early to draft a "D" or how late to put it off before getting screwed. I'll admit, I love the idea of no wiggle room, but thismight be a problem.

#14) Yes, H2H just like the real NFL.

Glad to see we ae getting a lot of input. We are at about 14 teams in the first 18 hours since I e-mailed. I'm going to let te discussion rage here for a while before I respond too much as I don't want to dictate all the rules or discourage those with good ideas from posting.

rfs ®

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 21693013
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 15:34

A decimal based system works well...Are we going to use such a system? I didnt see it outlined in the scoring summary, that is why I suggested a performance or decimal based scoring system for offensive yardage.

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 15:55

I'm not a big fan of your yards ratio, and the QB's have it too easy. (Passing for 200 yards is much more simple/common than rushing for 100 - both ending up with the same number of points.) If you take in your TD numbers however, it may not be that bad:

250 YdP, 2 TD, 1 INT, 20 YdR = 20.5 pts
100 YdR, 1 TD, 30 YdRec, 1 Fumble = 16 pts

Are these fair numbers? It would be a disaster if one of the categories outweighed another by a large margin, so we should really try to determine what numbers would make it fair.

I also don't quite understand what it means to have an "Illegal Roster". For instance, Yahoo won't let you play with an "illegal" roster. I've never played Sportsline, so can somebody please explain this to me? Thanks in advance.

Also, is CBS Sportsline the best place to host such a league? I personally don't have any other suggestions, but others might. (Yahoo won't let you hold a 32 team league?)

BB

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 15:57

Also... I checked the scoring statistics in the league page, and some of them don't seem to be updated to what you (rfs) proposed earlier. (I didn't see "Passing Yards" on there, but I may be blind ;)

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:00

AP10: Yes. It's about 1/2 way down in post #3.

.10 for each yard rushing/receiving and
.05 for each yard passing (I just added this as I forgot it on the initial set up. )

This means a QB that gets 300 yds / 3 TDs = 28.5 points and a RB/WR that gets 125 yards / 2 TDs = 24.5 (pretty even) I consider both "good" performances that I would be happy with in a game. Of course a QB has a high probability to get an INT (-3) with a high pass yard day, so he is still rated 'slightly' ahead of a 125/2 RB/WR! so they will really equal out. That was my goal.. each "good" performance should score the same whether is comes from a WR or RB or TE or QB. Each "great" performance and each "poor" performance should also score the same numerically.

EVERY QB is capable of 300/3TD days, even bums like Kerry Collins and Jay Fiedler. That's why I don't want to make passing TDs any more than 4.5 so those guys don't get rated/drafted higher than guys like Holt / Joe Horn / Curtis Martin. Do you really think it reflects the NFL accurately to see Collins drafted before Curtis Martin?

I'll shut up now (like I promised) and listen more!

:)

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:03

BB #17: CBS will let you start too many or too few WRs (for example) but it gives you a warning if your roster doesn't comply with the format. If you ignore the warning your roster is illegal and you get 0.00 and a loss for the week. It's just how the website functions.

rfs ®

(still listening)

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 16:59

rfs, I think the commissioner can fix those problems though. I have played teh CBS league in football and basketball the last 3 years I believe. We have our system and that's all I've ever done (besides some web stuff like sandbox, cnn, sw, tsn etc.). I was never a big fan of them. I played baseball for the first time and didn't know I could prerate them. I thought the computer would give out a pretty even team and you could make it better from there. I was the only one not to pre-rate--yet I'm all the way up to 4th and should have 3rd soon. But that's the best I'll be able to do. I have always finished in the money and all but once won my roto league I play locally with 12 people. But it is so boring that I'm not going to play that anymore.

So basically, what I'm saying is that I'll be learning a new system no matter what you go to. I do agree that the more yards you get--the more points you get. So that decimal pt system works for me. If we're snaking, it shouldn't matter how good your qb is because if you choose a QB then have to wait 63 picks to get back to you, you better have a dominating player. I'd rather have two very good players than one dominating and one decent player. My feeling is that they should be equal but will defer to those of you who have played in this particular system being proposed first.

Football is a crapshoot. The season is so incredibly short that you need to be lucky as well as having the foresight to take a flyer on a player or two that pans out. That is my reasoning for needing more than 6 transactions--especially with such a thin talent pool that we will def. have with 32 teams. IF we can only have one QB and their backup--what about star running backs? That may help strategy. Say you get two NY Giants RBs automatically with one pick--that may be better than getting a Faulk in case he gets hurt--just a thought. I personally would rather you get anyone you want but if your QB or RB get injured you get first right of refusal--like a 2 day waiver period that the commissioner controls. All thoughts that come to the top of my head.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 17:18

Also, as much as I"d love to select my own players...32 teams would be a hellafied draft and take many many hours to complete. May need to do the autodraft.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 17:40

FYI- 32 teams @ 15 rounds @ 60 seconds per pick = 8 hours online. "yikes" !!! Of course, you will only pick once every 30-60 minutes depending on your draft position.

BlueBalls
ID: 36592323
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 19:37

Can we have the draft take place between the 19th - 23rd ? I'd rather have it start in the morning, and end around 5 or 6 (my work day). I don't really want to spend my saturday or sunday on this. Like rfs said, you'd only have to check back every 30-60 minutes, giving you enough time to get your work done in between. (And by work I mean sorting through your cheat sheets ;)

I might have to prerank if the draft is at another time. But 1 vs 32 holds no voice, so we should probably vote on the draft day/time.

APerfect10
Leader
ID: 39143521
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 19:37

I agree that QB are overated. I think 0.04 pts/yd (approx 1 pt per 25 yds) is better suitd.

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 1710123
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 19:45

I'm interested in the league.

However, I would want to keep the original draft date of 8/31/02. I will be in school starting 8/12/02 and won't have internet access during the day on weekdays.

Also, I have no problem paying $10 to get in. I like the idea of imitating a true NFL league.

As long as the draft date is on a weekend, count me in

And if I get in, I would want the Cowboys

Thanks,
Peter N.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 20:47

Peter N - You should have been on my original e-mail invite list. Sorry if you were not!

You are in! You have the Cowboys! You will receive an "invite" e-mail from CBS sportline shortly.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 20:56

#24) BB and all: It's going to be impossible to organize a time that is good for all 32 people. Many people have expressed to me the weekend is better than weekdays (as people are at work). The idea of waiting until 8/31/02 is to let all possible starters be revealed as I would predict EVERY starting RB, WR, QB, and most fullbacks and 3rd team WRs will be drafted. it will be late in camp before some of those positions are announced.

I put a lot of thought into when to hold the draft. Frankly, it will come down to this.... I hope as many as possible can make it, if some can't they should evaluate whether they want to pre-rank or withdraw. I don't want to force anyone's hand and I realize that their will be some quality owers that just "can't" make it. (Gurupie J had to decline for this very reason today). That's OK. I just don't want to give the wishy-washy impression that the draft is somehow "flexible" People need to make plans now to participate or pre-rank or whatever.

rfs ®

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 1710123
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 21:35

I'm in

Thanks rfs!

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 21:38

and #24) BB, Besides you already have a draft(besides this one) scheduled for 8/31/02 in the afternoon. Political Gurupies has you chained to your PC on that same day anyway. I guess you will be joining me and Baldwin slaving over the keyboard!

;)

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 21:57

We now have 14 owners signed up .... 18 to go.

BlueBalls
ID: 36592323
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 23:41

Very good point rfs, that sort of passed by me earlier.

...about your 6 waiver moves rule, how about we give unlimited moves for the first 24 hrs after the draft, and then set the limit to 6? This way those who weren't able to make the live draft could still filter out some of their lower round queued picks. Just a suggestion.

BlueBalls
ID: 36592323
Tue, Aug 06, 2002, 23:54

As for $10, I'm not in it for the money, thus I would rather just give rfs $5. $1 extra to buy some beer (32 * $1 better be enough to buy good beer) to celebrate a job well done as the manager. If we decide to go with $10, I'm sure I can scrounge up an extra $5, but that would mean I would have to drink one less Coke a day for an entire week! Damn it!

azdbacker
Donor
ID: 1832261
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 00:20

rfs - 24 teams would fix the problem of the QB position. After considering our 'fix' from last night, I don't like it. You are basically picking a team QB for the life of the league with the way it stands. This is poor because it eliminates the ability to scout QBs and see your 3 year backup that you loved make it big. It also eliminates drafting of QBs out of college entirely, as they would automatically be property of whoever had the team QB that a prospect is drafted to. I think 24 teams still makes the league very deep - you will still be starting lots of guys who aren't big-time players and drafting plenty of guys that won't be playing except in mop-up duty. I think you lose way too much by not having individual Qbs.

Doug
ID: 3411223
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 02:27

rfs - I'm interested too... I'm in a league that AP10 just started up and have been very active so far... I can assure you this will continue through the season. Let me know...

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 13:27

azd, if we could choose anyone--including say drew brees--even though flutie may be the starter--that would eliminate that possibility. IF we made the waiver stipulation that if the backup was not already taken and the qb or rb gets injured--that team has until wed to automatically get the backup if they were still a FA. This has worked well in the league I have played in the past.

I understand what rfs is trying to do with 32. I also though 24 would be better--but since this his his idea and he has put a lot of thought into it--I'd like to stick with the 32 as well but modify the stance on QB--but still it can be very difficult as basically you're locked into one qb for life.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:02

Doug, You've got mail!

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:51

In regard to the Divisions, were the groupings done at random as the Redskins, the Seahawks, and the Cardinals don't seem to share many regional similarities. I don't know if this is under your control, but can we create divisions that are relevant to football history, as rivalries are always fun. (Maybe a division with Redskins, Cardinals, Eagles, Giants, Cowboys, Panthers, the Bucks, and Falcons?!?)

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 14:57

#38) Divisions can be altered. I just put NFC teams in South & North and AFC teams in EAST & West without much more thought. We can change them around, but let's wait until after we have all owners signed up (but still before we draft).

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 15:48

THE PROBLEM:

A 32 Team league leaves NO room for wiggling around when it comes to 1) Kickers, 2) Defenses, 3) QBs. There will be no replacements if a QB is hurt unless we force the backups onto rosters team-by-team. Even worse, what happens if a QB retitres next year? Will that owners be forced (allowed) to get the hot new rookie? or the promising young back up that switched teams?

If I leave it at 32, I think I am opening up some potential logistical nightmares that will suck the fun out of the league and potentially discourage a lot of owners.

THE SOLUTION:

I am going to reduce the league to 28 teams. I heard proposals of 24 too, but I'll explain my reasoning shortly. Basically, the league's Free Agent pool will contain at least 4 extra kickers, Defenses, and QBs that can be picked up in the event of injury or if your player stinks and you want to cut him.

THE EFECTS:

The Draft You will be permitted to carry only 1 QB/K/D per team. This includes active and/bench players. That being said, there will be 28 QBs drafted (I assume all sure-fire starters) leaving 4 possible free agent pickups + whatever 2nd teamers emerge as the season progresses (IE Drew Breese type guys). The only way to carry more than 1 QB is in the event of an injury (DL rules will have to be clarified later) you can place a player on DL and get another QB to play. Of course, the pickins will be slim. I fully expect one or more owners to accidently "live" or "auto" draft a 2nd, 3rd QB/K/D by accident. If/when this happens, the draft will just have to procede since I can't stop it or take a player off a roster until the draft is over. There will be a penalty for this (even if it is a mistake). If you end up with more than 1 QB (or K or D), at the end of the draft, I will remove the player from your team and you will have to fill that slot from the slim free agent pool with a RB, WR, TE.... whatever. The removed QB/K/D will be a free agent and subject to normal waiver rules UP FOR GRABS (waiver rules to be discussed later). It is possible that 2,3,4,5,6 + total players will be removed and sent to free agency! So, if you use your 2nd rounbd pick on a 2nd QB, the penalty is that the 2nd QB will be cut and you of course will have basically scrapped your 2nd round pick. This is the only way I can forsee fixing draft problems. Let's hope there are none, but I have no sympathy for owners that don't read the rules of the game.

Strategy If your player gets injured, just like the real NFL, the pick ups will be slim. This was one of my goals with such a deep league. But at least you have a chance to get a replacement. If your "D" or "K" stinks, at least you can cut him and get a relacement that is a starter even though it's a slim market. If your QB gets benched (IE Doug Flutie) at least you can release him and get a player that that is suiting up on Sunday.

Some of this may seem "unfair" but just like the real NFL, if you suffer misfortune (poor draft or injury), you will have a harder time recovering than just trolling a massive FA pool tha most leagues have.

IF ANYONE READS THIS AND WANTS OUT BECAUSE OF THIS RULE CHANGE, PLEASE SAY SO AND NO HARM NO FOUL

I'll post some more on some aspects I am mulling over later today ot tonight.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:00

The effect of limiting 1 QB/K/D will change the draft and rosters accordingly:

Starters:

QB
RB
RB
WR
WR
TE
K
D/Special teams
Flex- can be an extra RB/WR/TE only!
----
9
+ 5 bench players (extra RBs/WRs/TEs in any combination you wish)=
---
14 round draft === (14 x 28 = 392 picks)

This will help with the time. I still want to have a "supplemental 'slow' draft" after week 3 to bolster the rosters by 2 more players (but this may not be necessary) I'm open to thoughts on this topic.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:04

On last thing and I'll be off.....

I know a lot of informed opinions are out there about how to run a league. I, too, have opinions. But, if you have an idea to make a rule better, please support it with "why's" as opposed to just expression an opinion that X is better than Y.

If you think X is better and I think Y is better and you don't back up your thoughts, I'm probably going to discount your opinion and not put much thought into it. I don't want to do that because I might just disregard a god idea or two.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:07

Scoring Added/Change: Defense will get 3 points for a blocked FG or blocked punt.

rfs ®

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:16

Is there an IR position? ie - Warner gets hurt and will definitely miss 1 or more games, maybe even half the seaon. You certainly don't want to waive him and pick up a QB (limit 1 per team), but you would like to have a QB for the weeks that he is out. And if there is an IR spot, what rules would govern it?

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 16:56

I have IR rules that I haven't posted here yet. I'll give the short version until I can get back to give a more complete explanation.

A player is eligible to go on "IR" if:

1) He is suspended by the team or NFL
2) He is on the PUP list
3) He is on the NFL DL (out for the year)
4) He is listed on Thursday's official NFL "injury report" as OUT or DOUBTFUL
I will provide the link this report each week posted on the website.

Here are the catches:

1) Owners will be able to move players to "IR" on their own. If they place an ineligible player on the "IR" (such as "questionable" or "probable"), I will reverse the move
2) Once a player in on IR, he MUST stay there for that week. So, if you place Warner on IR in week 3 as "questionable" on Friday and wake up and it's announced he is going to play on Sunday morning, you are stuck. You are not allowed to reactivate him. The reason for this is to prevent owners from putting a QB on IR and grabbing up a free agent until the last minute and then swithing out. IE hording players.
3) There is a limit of 2 players MAX on DL. If you get 3 guys hurt, you will have to suffer or cut one to replace him.
4) Obviously, "D's" can't go on the "DL"

rfs ®

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 17:46

I think if I was asked and I had to be the one to choose or vote--I would think that 24 would be better than 28. While 28 may give a little wiggle room. with an expansion team that will basiclaly have little to no value--I think 24 would make the game better so people won't think they are stuck and dropout. From what I've seen, there are some very good managers so far and I don't forsee that as a problem, but I've seen very good managers quit SW in football every single year. In fact I'm not even going to play TSN football this year because it is so restricting and such a crapshoot. I want some strategy involved and an active bunch of people that will make trades. Having unlimited or a much higher ability to pick from free agents and the ability to move around to "fix" something that isn't working is appealing to me. i.e. If I have to trade two great WR to get a solid QB--then I'm all for it--but may have to get another WR from FA pool perhaps.

I will go along with whatever we come up with--that is simply my two cents if asked.

Doug
ID: 21922183
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 18:08

RFS - Regarding the schedule/playoffs, week 17 is a notoriously bad week to include in a playoff scenario, especially as it ends up being the "championship" in a week when some studs are being rested for the playoffs, whereas teams playing to get into the playoffs use their studs the whole game. This can be a rather anti-climatic and frustrating way to end the season, where the champion is determined by "luck of the draw" as to how much playing time their players get that week, not necessarily based on the "strength" of their roster. I would recommend one of the following 3 options.

A 14-game season with 2-week playoff could still involve 6 or more teams in the playoff, such as in each conference the 2 division champs plus a wildcard go up in a 3-way head-to-head match on week 15 to see who gets to go to the week 16 finals.

If you want to keep everything straight head-to-head then a 13-week season with a 3-week playoff format makes sense. The playoff format could be the same as what you have mentioned previously, the season is just a game shorter to avoid having the championship in week 17.

Finally, one other thing I've heard of to deal with the week 17 issue yet maintain a 14-game season and 3-week playoff is to have regular playoff games in weeks 15 and 16, but then for the championship game in week 17 the two teams add their points from weeks 15, 16, and 17 into a combined score to determine the champ, so that the sometimes-skewed week 17 result isn't the sole factor in determining the champ. Something to consider...

azdbacker
Donor
ID: 1832261
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 20:58

rfs - I like your solution, and (like Ref) I'm in no matter what you decide.

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Wed, Aug 07, 2002, 22:26

Look rfs-
I know you didn't send me an invitation in the mail, but I read this entire thread and this you have come up with a great idea. If you don't want me in because I wasn't invited that is perfectly fine and I can handle that, but I thought if you need a committed player that will provide some good competition I am your man. I know my reputation my not precede me, but that is because I am all of you guys just starting out! I am 16 on August 27th, but don't take that into account in your decision because I am always online and I am very competitive. Just let me know, I can handle you saying that you don't won't me in the league.

Just e-mail me at dsw827@aol.com.

Thanks,
THK

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 23730222
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 00:40

I'm interested if you don't fill up from the invitees. deepsnapper, Peter N., CC, and others can vouch for me. I'm not playing TSN baseball this year, so you won't see many posts from me, but I am playing Sandbox leagues. Sounds like fun, but incredibly difficult to field a decent team. Will require lots of research that's for sure.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 01:03

THK: Thanks for your interest. I have about 17-18 owners in already and I am still getting quite a few responses from the original 80+ I sent e-mails too. I'm going to keep your name on a waiting list. I want to give the original group a chance to decline or join first.

I'll let you know in 3-4 days where things stand. If there is an opening, you would be welcome.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 01:13

On the topic on money....

If we end up cutting to 28 teams, the cost will be about $5.00 per person ($140.00 for CBS website). I assume that won't break anyone for a season of fun. Once we get going, I will send out a colelction e-mailand you can pay me back via paypal or smail mail.

In a previous post, I stated the website cost $120, but I only did a quick read. The lower price is for returning teams. I will call them and see if I can get a price break as I have run another league w/ CBS for 3 years now and maybe I can get the $20.00 discount.

Several people have expressed an interest in competing fr a prize.

1) I will purchase some type of trophy and engrave the champion's name on it and it can be passed around year after year (like the Stanley Cup)

2) This part is optional : If a group wants to volunteer an extra $10-$15 payment, we could have a cash prize pool that will be accessable only to the "donors" This will make it elective, so some can play for fun and pride and others who want to can compete for a few buck as a second option. If 15 of the group will put in $15 extra each we will have $225.00. Perhaps $75 to the regular season champ and $150 to the Superbowl champ?

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 01:24

An owner run down so far:

Arizona Cardinals- Craig Turley*
Atlanta Falcons - Action Figures
Baltimore Ravens -APerfect10
Chicago Bears -CCRider
Cincinnati Bengals- Myboyjack
Cleveland Browns -Perm Dude
Dallas Cowboys -Peter N
Denver Broncos -coldwater coyotes
Green Bay Packers - azdbacker
Houston Texans - Brad Taylor*
Indianapolis Colts - Ref
NY Giants - wazaaap_guy
Oakland Raiders - Doug
Pittsburgh Steelers -rockafellerskank**
San Francisco 49ers - StLCards
St Louis Rams -Baldwin's
Washington Redskins -Blue Balls
waiting on team selection - Taxman

** Commssioner
* Non-gurupie personal friends that I have player fantasy football with for 5+ years.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 01:34

Ref #46- I agree about renmoving the restriction on limited FA pickups to 6 during the year, but I still want to find a way to put some strategy in this area (IE some limits) which will force owners to use their pick us wiseley as opposed to the shotgun approach. ... got some thinking to do here.

Doug #48- Valid point about week 17. At this point I'm thinking 14 weeks with 2 week playoffs. I just hate to give away week 17 (5.88235% of the season!!!). I want to give each owner as many weeks of enjoyment/frustration as possible.

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 10:55

rfs, I remember you saying in your original email that we will keep 13 players (including D and K). I think that this may be too many keepers, as basically we end keeping the entire team (13/14), not leaving much room for improvement in the next year's draft. This problem could be eradicated by going with less keepers (all starters, and 1/2 bench for instance), or by expanding the roster size to 16. This would enable managers to draft a couple of incoming rookies to aide their teams. (Next year's draft's order will be reverse to the final standings, correct?)

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 11:01

BB #56) I was basing the figure you reference on 75% on the total roster. In football each year there is a BIG impact from rookies and former scrubs to sign with new teams to become starters. There will be plenty of new players each year to revamp rosters with. This figure is still open to review, but at the moment, I'm planning keepers = 75% = (16 players X .75) = 12 keepers.

Since I've lightened the load from 32 to 28 teams at this point, QBs/Ks/Ds are no longer manditory keepers. If you have a stinky "D" and you wish to toss them bums, go ahead and take your chances redrafting next year. I doubt many QBs will be released though.

rfs ®

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 12:09

I assume that the draft order will be randomized (is that a word?) before the draft ... ?

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 13:23

BB #58) Next year's draft will be in reverse order of finish-- just like the real NFL (but still snake from round to round)

There is a "randomizer" to set draft order that I will use just as soon as we have all owners signed on and the divisions reset.

rfs ®

Doug
ID: 3411223
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 17:30

Just a thought... 2 conferences of 14 teams each (even if split into divisions of 7) really lends itself to a 13-game season (play each conference opponent once) for schedule parity purposes. You can then maintain a 3- week playoff with wildcards, etc.

I don't personally have a problem with going based on true NFL schedule (rather than play each opponent once), as long as we all realize that certain teams will have a distinct advantage based on strength of schedule (a pair of weak fantasy teams in your "true NFL division" = 3-4 wins over the season since you probably will play them twice). Just something to think about... what's more important to us in setting up this league... parity or realism? I'm cool with it either way.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 20:17

Doug #61) Good idea. I think I'm going to try to modify it a bit to keep 4 divisions and increase the intensity in the divisions.

4 divisions (2 AFC + 2 NFC) x 7 teams

13 weeks regular season

3 weeks playoffs

each division winner will make the playoffs + 2 top 2 AFC wildcards + top 2 NFC wild cards. All playoff teams will be seeded 1-4 per conference with 1,2 seeds gong to division winners and 3,4 seeds based on records.

The schedule will be 8 games VS own division 3 games VS other conference division and 2 games VS other conference.

Week 17 will be null.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 20:22

I need some input on the next part. ..

After the draft, 1) do we want all undrafted players to be instant free agents up for grabs until the season starts or 2) do we want them to become "on waivers" for 2 days to give eveyone a chance to claim who they want.

If "on waivers" are choosen, the first waiver order will be set as reverse of draft order.

If it's a free agent scramble, the first week's standings will determine waiver claim order.

This is how the CBS site is set to deal with the waiver proicess. I can override it player by player but I want to keep this automated because of the great deal of work that would be involved with 28 owners!

I'm leaning towards choice #2
rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 20:37

I'll explain the CBS website waiver process the best I can for those that are unfamiliar with it:

**SORRY IN ADVANCE FOR THE LENGTH OF THIS POST**

There is a difference between a "free agent" and a player on "waivers"

At the end of each NFL week (Tuesday mornings), all players not ona roster go "on waivers" for 2 days to allow each owner a chance to submit a waiver claim. This prevents a scramble to a hot new player going to he who is fastest to his PC.

If you want a player during this period, you will put in a waiver claim. When players are released from waivers, the player will go to whomever claimed him. If more than one owner cliams the same player, the owner with the lowest waiver position (IE #4 better than #13) get the player. If you get a player via waiver claim, your waiver position is reset to #28 (end f te line). If you put in a waiver claim and get aced out, yuo keep your original position.

A player drpped in the course of a week also goes onto waiver" status for a clearing period before becomng a free agent.

After all waiver claims are processed, the remaining free agent pool becomes a free-for-all right up to roster freeze for the next NFL week.

Once waiver order is established, it resets week after week in reverse order of standings. In otehr words, the worse teams always get the preferential waiver choices. NOTE: I don't like this method, but that is what is pre-built into the website. I can override it, but with 28 teams it would be a pain in the Arse)

Now that I have tried to explain it, here is a cut/paste from tjhe website that explains it officially.....

Help on Waivers

Overview
In order to provide an equal opportunity for all owners to add players to their roster that are new to the free agent pool, a Waiver process can be implemented. Owners' requests to add players on waivers to their roster are not executed immediately, but are put in a pending status. This allows multiple teams to request the same players. Late Monday night, after standings are updated, Commissioner.COM will generate a Waiver Ranking based on league standings. The team with the worst record will have the highest waiver rank. Late Tuesday night the first Waiver Process of the week will be run, executing the pending requests in Waiver Rank order. When a transaction is made during the Waiver Process, the team's rank is set to last and everyone elses rank moves up one.

Waiver Schedule
Late Monday night, standings will be updated and the initial waiver ranking for the week is determined. Starting Tuesday night, the waiver process will run each night of the week until a game is played. For the majority of weeks, where the first game is Sunday, waivers will run Tuesday night through Saturday night. If there is a Saturday game, waivers will run Tuesday night through Friday night. If there is a Thursday game, waivers will only run Tuesday night and Wednesday night for that week.

Conditions for Waivers
NFL Players are placed on waivers under the following circumstances:

A player is released during a waiver process: A player released during a waiver process is on waivers until the next waiver process. Example: An owner requests Player A on waivers and drops Player B. This request is pended until the waiver process runs. During the waiver process, the owner is awarded Player A, and Player B is released from the roster and placed on waivers until the next waiver process.

A player is released during a free agent acquisition: Requests for players not on waivers are not pended. The player dropped in a free-agent transaction (i.e., non-waiver) is placed on waivers for at least 24 hours. If a waiver process runs prior to 24 hours the player will remain on waivers until the following waivers process. Example: An owner drops a player on Wednesday afternoon in order to pick up a free agent. The player dropped remains on waivers until Thursday night's waiver process.

All Free Agents as of Monday night: When the standings are updated after Monday Night Football, the initial waiver ranking for the week is determined and all free agents are put on waivers for the first day of waiver claims.

Waiver Rank
On Monday night, the initial waiver rank for each team is determined based on standings.The team lowest in the standings receives the highest waiver rank. The criteria for determining the team lowest in the standings varies based on the type of league.

Points-based
1. Lowest in YTD standings
2. Commissioner Discretion (see Special Note below for Commissioner users)

Head-to-head
1. Worst Won/Lost Record
2. Least Points Scored YTD
3. Most Points Scored Against YTD

During a waiver process, pending transactions are processed in an order determined by each team's waiver rank. The team with the highest waiver rank will get its first requested player. If that team's highest pending transaction can't be executed because another team has the requested player, the transaction gets deleted and the team's next transaction, if one exists, is then executed. When a team gets a requested player, the team's waiver rank is dropped to the end and every other team moves up one and the process is continued. If a team doesn't have any pending transactions because all players requested were taken by other teams, or the owner simply didn't request any players, the team's turn is skipped but the waiver rank is not dropped. If a team has the highest waiver rank after Monday night and doesn't request any players for Tuesday night's waiver process, that team will still have the highest rank for the next process. The waiver rank for all teams at the end of one waiver process will be the starting rank for the next process, excluding the Tuesday night process when the waiver rank is reset based on standings.

Pre-Season
The CBS SportsLine.com Fantasy Football game and Commissioner product both support a pre-season waiver's process. For Fantasy Football game players, the first waiver process will be run the second night after your draft, time permitting, and the initial waiver rank will be based on reverse draft order. For the Commissioner product, once the automated waivers process is activated, waivers will run nightly until the first week of the season.

Making a Waivers Claim
If you want to drop a player and pick up a player off of waivers follow these steps:

Lets say you have a player that you want to drop (player A) and several players that you would like to add (players A and B), depending on their availability when your turn comes up. If player B is not available you would like to pick up player C. In order to accomplish this you would submit two Add/Drop requests:

Drop player A, Add player B, and
Drop player A, Add player C.

Lets say your turn comes up and player B has already been picked up off waivers by another team. A request can not be executed if either the add or drop player is not available. Requests will be skipped until the first valid roster move is found. In this case, your second request would be executed and you would get player C (provided he is not also already picked up off waivers).

The same is true in the reverse. If you dropped player A and added player B, then during your next round of waiver selections it will skip over the second waiver request involving Player A and go down your list to see if you have any other waiver requests.

Note: Free agents are available on a first-come, first-served basis; they can be picked up at any time. If a player is dropped from a roster and he clears the waiver process without being picked up, he then becomes a free agent, and can be picked up at any time.

Special note for users of the Commissioner product: The commissioner of a league can, prior to the waiver process running, over-ride the generated waiver rankings. This is useful for leagues that give special consideration to teams that lost a player due to inter-league trade or injury. [Commissioners, please see the Front Office Transactions, Waivers Order page for more information].

Additional Help
More help is available using the links below.

Topics
If you're looking for help on a particular subject, select this link to search for help by subject.

Stat Categories
This page will display a list of all the scoring category abbreviations and names.

League Rules
Scoring, Roster, Transaction and other league rules are described here.

Contact Us
Review frequently asked questions. If your question is not listed, contact our support staff.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 21:44

Trading:

Since it is a "live" draft, you can't trade draft picks. But, you can work out deals ahead of time and submit them to the commissioner after the draft for approval. (or ahead of time for preliminary approval)

Example:

Team X wants to trade his 2nd and 8th round pick for Team Y's 3rd and 4th round pick. Work out the details ahead of time. Team Y tells Team X to take Terry Bradshaw at #2, then Team X tells team Y to draft Lynne Swann at #3. Team X then tells Team Y to draft Franco Harris @ #4. Team Y then tells Team X to draft John Stallworth at #8.

After the draft, submit the trade:

Bradshaw and Stallworth for Swann & Harris and they trade will go through. Simple.

I want to encourage trading as a form of improving teams. I plan to exrecise pretty liberal trading rules. 2 for 1's or 3 for 2's ....etc... are accecptable too. He who is on the short end will just need to supplement his draft via free agency / waivers.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 08, 2002, 23:02

rfs: Hey, rfs, It's not cool to talk to yourself in this forum.

rockafellerskank : Can't we all just get along?

rfs: Sure, just stop pretending to be rockafelerskank

rockafellerskank Should be invite YOUNGBUCK?

rfs: No, he would just draft Jeff Lewis and piss "kev" off.

[inside joke]

BlueBalls
ID: 36592323
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 00:34

BlueBalls : Stop talking to rfs. This isn't "instant messaging."

BB : No. We have to beat out the rules. Ok, I want to ensure that our league will be as fun as can be, and sway all the rules in the favor of BB. Maybe also BlueBalls.

rfs : Yes master BlueBalls, I will accept your 6th and 7th round picks for my 1st and 2nd. All hail BlueBalls!

I'm fine with TSN's default waiver status. Not all of us can get to the computer in time on Sundays, especially if our teams are losing and we must drink a couple more beers to compensate for that unfortunate sight.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 2601630
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 09:43

rfs,
Just got back into town.
Haven't had a chance to digest all of this yet, but you have mail.
I'd love to be in and take San Diego Chargers.

Cliff

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 10:14

21 owners signed up

Blueballs
ID: 45614114
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 11:25

That's odd, I count 22.

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 11:27

The problem I see with the waiver rule is that it only covers newly added (by cbssportsline) or recently waived players. Having so many teams it is hard to imagine any player waived is worth picking up. Very few new additions will likely be made by cbs. Therefore, the real key to improving your team will be to grab the unknown player or rookie that starts off playing well, or suddenly finds himself starting due to injury. What will happens is the first player to the keyboard gets the player. For example, if I am watching the game and see Marshall go limping out of the game with a torn ACL, I can only get Canidate if I am fast enough at the keyboard. He wouldn't have been recently waived or newly added, so it would be a first come first serve basis. I would rather see a priority based system used each week for the entire free agent pool to help level the playing field between the haves and the have-nots. I think I am interpreting that right.

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 11:42

I am betting on Canidate already being taken in the draft. With such a deep league of 28 you are looking at 2.25 rounds in a regular draft is 1 round in our draft, which means when we get to round 5 we will already be at round 11+...and so on.

THK

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 11:45

I agree, but that was just an example. Substitute Canidate with player X that has not been taken yet. Free agent pool will certainly be very thin.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 11:58

#70 StLCards:

Each week all players not on rosters will be changed to waiver status automatically. So in yor example if Trung was unsigned and Faulk gets hurt, Trung would be on waivers until approximately Tuesday night. Each week players transit from waivers (at freeze time) --> free agents (24 hours after Monday night football) --> waivers (at freeze time) ... etc.. etc.... Everyone intersetd will get a chance to put in a waiver claim on Trung and the lowest priority wins. The entire available free agent pool gets protested for waiver claims week after week.

So, it will never be a race to the computer. Well, possibly in Faulk gets hurt on Friday practice and is announced out, it could happen.

I hope I did a better job of explaining it.

rfs ®

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 12:19

Thanks RFS. I like the automated method. I agree that option 2 #62, is also best for immediately after the draft.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 12:54

If this hasn't been discussed...If anyone drafts someone that is hurt. I would suggest that they are unable to be put on DL until after the first week. Here's why...I've seen this abused as people are selecting good players that are out say 4 weeks or so with an injury (sometimes more)...owners pick them up--immediately put them on DL and get free pickups for them. Basically they get to put people on the shelf for free and have them stored for when they come off IR w/o penalty as they get to pick up players for free. If you want to do that and use a pick--then IMO you're gonna have to suffer that first week.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 15:05

Input please:

Trading Deadline - None after week 12 freeze, assuming playoffs begin week 13.

Free Agent/waivers pickups freeze: None once the playoffs begin (week 13). Keep in mind, if we do this and you get an injured player, you pay with what you got left. OR free agent pickups OK only for active teams (eliminated teams become dormant).

Offseason moves: Trades OK after Superbowl untilnext year at "keeper announcement day"

This is the way I am leaning on these issues unless I hear compelling reasons not to.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 15:07

Scoring change/add: missed XP = -1 point
(no penalty for missed FGs)

I am also eliminating the silly rule that I had about a maximum of 6 free agent moves per team per year. Dumb. Dunb, Dumb.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 15:22

rule change: The status if a player (IE starter/bench) may be chaned up to 5 minutes before the player's game.

I had previously set freeze to be 1 hour before kickoff of the first game of the week, but I like the new way better.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 16:07

I'm also eliminating the "supplemental" draft idea and changing the total rounds of the draft to 15. (instead of 14 + 2 rounds of supplemental).

This is part due to logistics of trying to get 28 people to complete a slow round draft in week 2 & week 3. It only takes in no-show. this just seems too much trouble. YIKES!

Secondly, since I have removed that dumb rule about limit 6 FA pickups, owners can manipulate their rosters at will as new, hot players emerge via free agnecy and waiver claims.

The original idea was to give everyone a fair shot at upcoming players and expand rosters, but i think we have accomplished that anyway by 4 less owners and unlimted pickups.

rfs ®

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 49749111
Fri, Aug 09, 2002, 16:30

Ref #75) Agreed. Already worked it into the rules.

Doug
ID: 3411223
Sat, Aug 10, 2002, 00:01

rfs - I'd recommend putting up a web page with the league rules that we can refer to, even though they are "in progress"... here's one I did for another league... the italics denote items that are still being decided upon, etc.

Hardcore Rules

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 2601630
Sat, Aug 10, 2002, 09:38

rfs,
I'm still reading away, but do have one question.
Looking at 82, Whichever Defense I take, will also be the Special Team that I have?
Am I reading that right?
Just want to make sure, since it will have minor changes on rankings.

Looks good so far.

Cliff

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Sat, Aug 10, 2002, 09:55

Yes. D/ST is one in the same, so if you take StLouis D, you get StLouis Special teams.

And, good point, it does make a difference.

rfs ®

LANman
Donor
ID: 527198
Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 02:58

If there's still a slot available, I'd like a team. No problem with the money, and staying active 'til the end, even if it's a bitter one. If I do get in, and since the Cowboys are taken... could I get Tennessee? If taken, Miami or New Orleans would do. Thanks, Doug

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 18:36

LANman - Thanks for your interest. Currently, I have tentative responses out from the original invite list. I have started a "waiting list" so sit tight and I'll see where we stand by Tuesday or Weds and contact you.

rfs ®

LANman
Donor
ID: 527198
Sun, Aug 11, 2002, 22:32

That's fine. Use the e-mail address with this post, it's checked more frequently. Thanks...

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 426351415
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 09:21

If you are looking to fill the league I'd be interested. I'm not in a football league yet, so I'm looking to get in on something. Let me know.

pgeary27@yahoo.com

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 426351415
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 09:29

Also RFS, I sent you a WPFB trade deadline proposal. Let me know what you think and hopefully we can hammer something out before the 15th.

***Sorry for disrupting the flow of the thread but I just wanted to bring it to your attention****

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 127171211
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 13:49

OK, Ref and I have worked out the last few rules.

I'll e-mail them to everyone shortly (and post them here). They are in MS Word format.

Major Changes (and pretty colors too)....

CBS only has 381 players in their database (including 32 D's). So, obviously, 28 teams X 15 rounds = 420 players won't work.

I have decided to make the following changes to accomodate the ability to leave a realistic free agent pool, encourage trading, and eliminate the 1QB, K, D rule.

1) Owners are reduced from 28 to 24
2) Draft is reduced from 15 rounds to 13 rounds.

This means that 312 players will be drafted, leaving a free agent pool of 70+/- or about 20% of all avaialable players. Thsi also cuts the total drafttime down to (60 seconds per pick) 5 to 5 /12 hours.

3) Starting lineps will be 1QB, 1RB, 1WR, 1TE, 1K, 1D, and 2 flex players (any extra RB, WR, or TE) Your bench will be 5 players deep

You still will only be able to start 1 QB, 1K, 1D each week, but now you can draft as many as you wish. From a strategy point of view, if you draft too many QB's(k's or D's) and you can only start one, of course you are thinning your own bench.

It is still mathematically possible (unlikely) for an owner to end up with NO QB, K or D, so plan accordingly! If this happens you will either have to work a trade or suck it up and play 1 position short until you can swing adeal down the road. I have little sympathy for an owner at this level who forgets to draft a QB.

Divisions will change to 4 divisions of 6 teams each.

We have 22 signed up owners. I have 2 spots "promised" that will fill in the next 1-2 days. At that time, I'll re-work the divisions and "randomize" the draft order. This assuming no one drops out!

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 426351415
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 14:24

I'm wondering if there is any way that the draft could possibly be held over a 2 or 3 day period? Where we would maybe break after 2 hours on the first day and restart at a specified time the next. Just an idea I thought I'd throw out and get some feedback on. This would allow more people to actually be present for the later rounds.

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 127171211
Mon, Aug 12, 2002, 14:32

CP #91) Can't do it, although I'd be up for it, the draft has to be conducted 1 of 2 ways

1) Live (and there is no stop/start feature)
2) Slow (can you imagine the hassle to get 24 people to post?) Only 1 bad apple spoils a slow draft!

The advantage of the live draft is that it guarantees a finish. 8/31/02 is just 5 days before week 1 kickoff. No way we can take a chance of having partial rosters that late in the month.

As I've said before, if anyone can't make the draft or has an issue, it's best to bow out now with no hard feelings. There have been several Gurupies (such as "J")that have had to decline or withdraw due to the draft date. It's understandable.

FWIW, although I plan to be present for the entire draft, but I think a quality pre-rank and/or a predisigned queue and/or a check in about every 30-60 minutes should keep most owners aprised of the avaialable players at any given point. The owners that will suffer are those that don't pre-rank or prepare. I don't think any accomodations will help those type anyway.

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 11:43

I've been working with rfs intently the last dozen days or so and you guys ahve no clue the time and effort rfs has put into this. He deserves MAJOR props for designing a league that is unique yet also very playable and enjoyable. We've been tweaking the scoring and the rules just a smidge to try and create fairness at all positions and the draft. I think you will find this to be a terrific league and rfs deserves the credit. Make sure you remember that during the season while you're having a blast!

Doug
ID: 37291216
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 14:57

Just an FYI, I will be out of touch until sometime around the 27th or 28th probably... however, I WILL be around and participating on draft day. Just wanted to give you that confirmation now since you will not hear from me for the next two weeks. Thanks, Doug - Oakland Raiders

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 15:48

Only having 1 RB and 1 WR starting mandatory will make the draft very interesting in my opinion. Of course most people will have 2 RB and WR most likely. But anyway...thanks rfs for putting so much effort into this league. It will be a lot of fun, especially when I see my name engraved on the trophy! ;-)

THK

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 127171211
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 16:01

Doug: n.p.

THK: Being a former "Buckeye", I'm not sure I could bring myself to send a trophy to a "Tar Hill"

Perhaps a Gurupie handle change will give you a better fate. Might I suggest "Woody Hayes" or "Art Schlister"? Yes, I know, both before your time!

rfs ®

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 16:23

rfs, not sure that those guys are the model of professionalism that you want to headline a tribute to THE ohio state university. Everyone knows that if anyone is going to carry that model, it has to br Mr. Robert Montgomery Knight.

Perm Dude
Leader
ID: 2065918
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 16:42

Small point: How about upping the shutout to 25 points? It is a big psychological boost to a defense to shut out another team.

pd

100

Ref
ID: 28045169
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 18:02

PD, The points for defenses compared to other positions are big as it is--but I'll take a look at it as well as rfs. I agree that a shutout is HUGE!!! rfs, I have sent a reply to your email and will be available for a little while tonight so we can try and hammer out the final rules details.

101

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 27561120
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 20:21

I know I haven't expressed it yet, but I've been thinking about it as I read the rules, draft, etc. of the league. The only thing I can say is WOW This is extremely impressive! rfs, a big thanks goes out to you for putting the time and effort into this league.

Are you ready for some football!?!? I sure as hell am! :-)

102

Ref
ID: 121135289
Tue, Aug 13, 2002, 23:35

Agreed, Peter N., this is the most time I've ever seen anyone put into this thing. It kind of has to be with what we are trying (and succeeding to get done). We have the rules done but are evaluating every area to make sure they are inline with what rfs originally had in mind. Another spreadsheet should help us get an idea of where we are at. Again, rfs is doing all of the work--I couldn't begin to make those spreadsheets like he can. I really think you will like what we submit to you in the coming days.

We've got some very good fantasy players in this league and would have had it filled earlier if not for some date/time conflicts. It's imperative that everyone get back to us in a timely fashion if called upon/e-mailed.

103

Ref
ID: 28045169
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 17:14

All spots are filled. If someone doesn't fulfill their obligation, there may be a way to get in by taking their spot. Hope to present final rules to you soon. Again, the rules on our site are still tentative--although 99% of them are final already--we just haven't told you what 1% we are still looking at ;)

104

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 19:46

# 93)
When I click on it the page tells me that it belongs to skankboy and it asks for his password. So I can't access the league's rules even though I can see them on this forum.

THK

105

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 127171211
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 20:03

THK- oops. I guess the link doesn't work as I am "skankboy" and I'm not sharing my password!

Go to the website and click on "help" / "rules" from the main page. ( we are still under consruction for maybe 24-36 more hours?)

rfs ®

106

Ref
ID: 121135289
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 20:55

The mandatory entry fee will be $6. Money can be sent to rfs' pay pal account or to his address by US Mail. We will post email these options to you individually.

I need to figure out how many of you are interested in an additional prize money as an option to those that want it. I need to know who will and will not be interested and how much they are willing to put in for that. My suggestion is $10 but we can do slightly more than that if enough want to do that. We can then spread that out so several win a little or make it so few win a lot. Need feedback asap. rfs will be paying the bill himself tomorrow so as soon as he does he needs to be reimbursed by the league asap.

107

Ref
ID: 121135289
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 21:05

Here is the much anticipated draft order:
1 Houston Texans
2 Arizona Cardinals
3 Baltimore Ravens
4 Pittsburgh Steelers
5 Chicago Bears
6 Green Bay Packers
7 Atlanta Falcons
8 Cincinnati Bengals
9 Dallas Cowboys
10 Cleveland Browns
11 Jacksonville Jaguars
12 Indianapolis Colts
13 NY Giants
14 Oakland Raiders
15 St Louis Rams
16 Kansas City Chiefs
17 Seattle Seahawks
18 San Diego Chargers
19 Buffalo Bills
20 San Francisco 49ers
21 Minnesota Vikings
22 Denver Broncos
23 Tampa Bay Bucs
24 Washington Redskins

108

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 21:17

As a means of comparison, here is who own waht team ina crude cut/paste;

Promize --Seattle Seahawks
Craig Turley --Arizona Cardinals
CCRider --Chicago Bears
StLCards --San Francisco 49ers
APerfect10 --Baltimore Ravens
Peter N --Dallas Cowboys
Taxman Kansas --City Chiefs
azdbacker Green --Bay Packers
TaRhEElKiD --Minnesota Vikings
ksoze --Tampa Bay Bucs
Brad Taylor --Houston Texans
Baldwin's Berserekers --St Louis Rams
Twarpy --NY Giants
GoatLocker --San Diego Chargers
Blue Balls --Washington Redskins
Dan Buffalo --Bills
CanEHdian Pride --Jacksonville Jaguars
Myboyjack --Cincinnati Bengals
Perm Dude --Cleveland Browns
Doug --Oakland Raiders
Ref --Indianapolis Colts
coldwater coyotes --Denver Broncos
rockafellerskank --Pittsburgh Steelers
Action Figures --Atlanta Falcons

109

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Wed, Aug 14, 2002, 22:53

CCRider or azdbacker-
I would be interested in having a deal of if you pick this guy at such and such and I will pick this guy and such and such...please e-mail me at dsw827@aol.com to inquire.

Thanks,
THK

110

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 16:16

Final rules are pretty much done.

Last hance to get your $0.02 worth heard on ANY topic that has been posted above. Once rules are finalized, there won't be any changes. Speak now or .....

Two quick notes. 1) I will send an e-mail out in the next 24 hours telling everyone how they can pay me back for the website cost ($6/each). I will accept Pay Pal or US Mail.

That same e-mail will include an optional "prize pool" as well for those that want to play for cash prizes. THIS WILL BE OPTIONAL. Right now, CCRider, Ref and myself are thinking $15.00 each. Those taht participate will be eligibe to win cash, those that don't will ust be eligible to winthe trophy. Don't feel pressure to paticipate if it's not financially feasible for you.

I'd like to hear anyone's $0.02 (pun intended) on this topic. Interested? Bad idea? Amount? Don't trust me to hold the cash? *evil grin*

I have even set up a poll on the website if you wish to opine there.

rfs ®

111

Ref
ID: 28045169
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 17:18

A few of you have made contact directly to rfs on this subject via AIM. While that's great and we appreciate your communication, we need more people to communicate and preferably on here unless it is a privacy concern. I am working on setting up the prize money distribution and need to get a feel for people's thoughts and how many will be particiapting. I need to finalize that by today or tomorrow as when we request payment those that will be participating in the prize money part can simply make one payment. If you post your thoughts--there can be discussion.

Also, as rfs mentioned look at the rules on the site. rfs and I are still discussing one particular scoring aspect--but we expect to come to an agreement tonight on that. Once we do, if there has been no objections or problems then we will make them final. We owe it to the players to make the rules final to offer you the product before requesting payment.

Again, this is your chance to have a voice and be heard regarding anything in the rules or scoring system. If you don't speak up now...don't speak up later ;) Give it some thought and take a peek what we're trying to do.

112

ksoze
Sustainer
ID: 50643419
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 23:45

rfs and ref,
I'm in for the prize pool, $15 is fine with me.

113

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 23:50

I am in on it as well, I don't care the entry fee. How will the prize $ be divided between season winners and playoff winners?

THK

114

Peter N.
Donor
ID: 1710123
Thu, Aug 15, 2002, 23:56

I'm good for the $15 as well. It's going to have to be snail mail though. Just send me an address to send it to and it will be on it's way....

115

Ref
ID: 121135289
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 00:15

It will be easier to tell you how it's going to be devided when I get a better idea of how many people are in. I have a plan worked out for 16 and a more limited one for 12. I'd like to spread it out so more than just a couple people get something. Could be 4 plus reg. season winner get it--actually could be as many as 8 get something though 5-8 may only be entry fee back--again all depends on how many are in.

116

CanEHdian Pride
Donor
ID: 426351415
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 00:36

I'm thinking more along the lines OF.......1 MILLION DOLLARS!

On second thought, $15 is cool. Count me in.

117

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 257481214
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 11:08

I'm in for the prize pool and $15 is just fine with me.

Cliff

118

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:11

I'll be adding the fees on the site of the people I know are in for the prize money. Remember, it is totally optional chip in the extra $15. The $6 is required and that entites you to play and be eligible for the trophy. So it will be either $6 or $21. RFS and I talk contstantly. Although I will be administering this part of the game for the most part--we still want all money to be sent to rfs and ideally at the same time. I think we have gotten all the final details worked out. RFS will be emailing out the info and we will be presenting the final rules any time now.

119

Myboyjack
Leader
ID: 4443038
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:18

In for $15

120

Ref
ID: 28045169
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:21

I left my list at home and tried to remember who all said they were in for the prize money besides the ones that have posted here. So if I wasn't sure, I put that you owed $6. About 10 or 11 have down as $21. If there is $6 and you want in let me know asap. Check your team finance report for info.

121

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:43

RFS or Ref-
You haven't sent an e-mail about how to send the $ yet have you? I thought I remember you saying it would be about a day or close to. Because if you have I haven't gotten one. Just asking...

THK

122

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Fri, Aug 16, 2002, 15:52

Nevermind...

123

BlueBalls
ID: 36592323
Sat, Aug 17, 2002, 18:43

How will we pay for the trophy? How will we pay for the S&H of the trophy? ... ahh, whatever - count me for $21. I would probably waste the $15 on something stupid anyway.

124

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Sun, Aug 18, 2002, 13:51

BB - I'll take care to the trophy purchase and shipping (I don't think there will be a "handling" charge).

It's probbaly not relevant as I doubt the trophy will leave sunny AZ!

:)

rfs ®

125

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 17:36

Is there a possibilty of a mock draft of a few rounds just to test the site, for stability, how it handles time-outs, etc? Last year the java draft page was not that stable, but has a much better interface than the html one.

I'm also wondering if you know how the computer drafts for a team that is not present? If I prerank 20 TE's and 20 K as my first 40 picks could I conceivably get 2 or 3 of each and not get a QB or RB? or would the computer try to select one for each position? Not that I'm going to prerank like that, but I think you see where I am going with it.

126

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 127171211
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 17:46

StL Cards- Good question(s). I am going to send an e-mail to CBScommissioner.com to see if I can get an explanation. I'll post here when I get a reply.

I believe we can "mock" draft and then erase rosters and reset the draft to the proper time, but I want to be sure first.

rfs ®

127

TaRhEElKiD
ID: 42109719
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 18:50

I think a mock draft is a bad idea...I think we should draft random players if we do it. Don't need to give away an stategy or anything. If we did a mock the other players will know how high you are willing to take so and so...sorry if that sounds odd...

THK

128

StLCards
Sustainer
ID: 4431816
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 19:03

I agree TaRhEElKiD that you don't want to give away strategy, but there is no reason too. TD could even be a #1 pick, who cares. Last year we did one and it was a learning experience. With this many teams I think it would be very helpful to find any problems now rather than have problems on draft day. It will be very helpful for people that haven't played this site before to learn the interface and frustrations it may or may not have for them.

129

rockafellerskank
Sustainer
ID: 456181014
Mon, Aug 19, 2002, 23:53

NEW LINK for continued discussion.......

RotoGuru Football Standings

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