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Subject: Face vs. Heel Posted by: Bond, James Bond - [331154316] Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 21:19 On a wrestling board site, the subject came up about WWE's best faces and best heels of all-time. Being relatively new to this genre of wrestling entertainment, I'd appreciate ya'll's thoughts regarding this. There are some superstars, no matter what, who play either face or heel extremely well and yet cannot play its counterpart with the same zeal, passion or conviction. For example, Orton's name came up numerous times. Obviously, he's just getting started in the active role of the business and so there should be a little leeway given. However, as of now, it's my feeling that his "destiny" with the company is strictly as a top-notch heel. He is certainly much less entertaining now than he was as the snobbish, arrogant jerk he was before. Let me throw out some other names of some recent superstars and I'll give you a brief recap of my thoughts: HHH? Heel all the way. I love to hate him. Flair? Actually very good in both areas but I think he makes a better heel. HBK? Face. However I wasn't around during his heyday of the mid 90's so I'm not sure how he was as a heel. Angle? While I enjoy him in whatever capacity, he just has that persona that makes a very good heel. Undertaker? I like him either way. The Rock? A great, great face--probably the best ever-- but when he sings those songs with his guitar while playing a heel, he's top notch all the way. Austin? Face. Couldn't stand him as a heel. Batista? Right now he's just getting some real good qualites added to his character. Although he seems like he'd be best at heel, it sounds as if the fans want him to turn face. Don't know if he has that in him or not. Jericho? I'm torn on this one. His back and forth with The Rock a couple of years ago against the Princess were some of the finest comedic moments in WWE history IMHO. He's a great face; he's a great heel. Christian? Just love the guy. Makes a great heel. Big Show? Deep inside his 500+ pounds, I know he's just a gentle giant with a great sense of humor. But as a WWE performer, he's best when he sticks at his heel character. Edge? I loved his run as the cool face. But his heel turn, I think, will bring out the best in him yet. Kane? Ugh. Just leave him as a monster who creates havoc wherever he goes and I'm fine with that. Oh yeah, please put his mask back on! ;) Trish? Absolutely great in both roles. Just don't make her a commentator for a match; she's absolutely horrid at that. Regal? Fans love him, especially with his run as Commissioner (with his sidekick Tajiri) a couple years back but he's meant to be a heel. By the way, just how many former Commissioners (aka General Managers) are now active on Raw nowadays? Not including this 4 week fluke of RKO, Jericho, Benoit and Maven, I think there's three: HBK, Regal and Flair. Strange thought. Continuing.... Benoit--Face. VKM---He may be the best heel in the business. He probably has the best acting skills of anyone in the WWE and certainly knows how to push the right buttons at the right time. Eddie Guerrero---Man, I love this guy. He's a great talent, a great worker and a very good actor. Probably is a better heel than face but I'll take him either way. Those are just a few of the superstars. Certainly, someone can enlighten me on the likes of Hogan, Macho Man, Bret Hart and any others. Also please include your thoughts of today's performers. Thanks guys! | |||||||
| 1 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 21:40 |
Great topic Bond. Before we had this league, Species and I exchanged many an e-mail, sharing these exact thoughts.........it seems we both grew up loving the heels! My brother and I were huge fans of the Honky Tonk Man. He pissed so many fans off that they just had to give him the IC strap! His line to explain that he was better than all the fans was that he could "sing, dance, and he could wrassle!" He carried a guitar, but never really played it. Don't even know if he could. This was well before Jeff Jarret's guitar act. I'll never forget when he won the IC Title on Saturday morning's Wrestling Superstars. I was working at a Fox TV station and we had the tape fot Saturday's show 4-5 days in advance. I popped it in, and was "watching" it on fast forward, where you could still see the images clearly. When they raised his hand, I smacked the button to stop the tape so hard I practically knocked the machine over!! Then I watched it......then I called my brother and said Honky would be wrestling for the title on Saturday's show against Ricky Steamboat. I told him I had a feeling that he might finally have the Dragon's number. I told him to make sure he was watching, and even made a small wager, cuz I said I had a feeling. My brother called me that Saturday and was screaming! He was shocked and excited at the same time! I think I told him the truth at some point......maybe. And so it was that in 1987, HTM was an IC Title Holder that the people hated SO bad! He danced worth crap, and he knew it, while acting like he was "the man." Hilarious! Last thing on HTM......I remember during his title reign, my brother's friend saying his finishing move-----the "shake, rattle and roll"-----was "just a swinging neckbreaker," and nothing special, and shouldn't be finishing guys offs. After all, other people had swinging neckbreakers, and they weren't finishers. You outta see that dude laying on the ground after he let my brother show him why the move was so lethal. LMAO! He never talked down HTM after that! Some great WWF Honky Tonk Man pictures | ||||||
| 2 | Great One ID: 551038246 Fri, Dec 03, 2004, 22:12 |
my company block of this forum is the heel that pisses me off the most! Bond, you never saw "the old days"? I am sure these guys will offer some good tapes to rent.. maybe some War Games. I always liked Sting. Probably my favorite as a heel or face or dark or blonde or anything... | ||||||
| 3 | Species ID: 36101300 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 00:59 |
"The Million Dollar Man" Ted DiBiase........just great on the mic and a decent grappler. Ravishing Rick Rude -- just freakin' hilarious. Always loved the Macho Man during his IC title reign. The music, the "Ohhhhh yeah", the flying elbow......classic. Kurt Angle is fantastic. | ||||||
| 4 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 01:51 |
old school Freebirds...Gino Hernandez and Chris Adams as the Dynamic Duo...Gary Hart's Army...Jake Roberts, pre-WWE...Steve Dr. Death Williams, pre WWE...Ric Flair...One Man Gang...Skandor Akbar... man, that's just a few of the heels i loved to hate when i was a kid... | ||||||
| 5 | wiggs Donor ID: 04991311 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 12:14 |
i always liked jim cornettes Midnight Express "every mothers nightmare, every school girls dream, Beautiful Bobby and Sweet Stan, The Midnight Express" | ||||||
| 6 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 13:21 |
i always liked jim cornettes Midnight Express "every mothers nightmare, every school girls dream, Beautiful Bobby and Sweet Stan, The Midnight Express" seeing the midnight express a couple months ago was a dream come true, especially since it was the first time that Corney, Eaton, Lane, and Loverboy Dennis Condrey all worked together. Eaton even did the Rocket Launcher, which was so spectacular, even if he did need some help getting to the top turnbuckle. today, i get to see "The Great Managerial Debate," as Cornette and Bobby The Brain Heenan face off for the first time ever! | ||||||
| 7 | blue hen ID: 353412123 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 13:44 |
I think Ted Dibiase was the greatest heel of all time, although Bobby Heenan sweeps right on through the manager division in that category. Even though those guys didn't always win, you were always scared that they'd come up with some way to beat your hero. Especially Dibiase. JBL would be a much better gimmick if Dibiase hadn't already done it - better. Of current guys, I absolutely hate Orton the face. It was way too early. He was great as a heel, but I have no reason to cheer for him as a face. Kurt Angle can go either way, and that's what makes him so great. He's the best athlete AND the best actor in the company. I prefer Angle the heel, personally, but he's cheered even then, so he's sort of both a face and a heel. Christian is a great heel, or at least a great foil. E&C as the "good guy" heels were much better than the current incarnation, where they're purely bad. Is it harder to be a heel or a face? Outside of Rock, Stone Cold, and Eugene, there are very few "true" faces, that aren't just faces because they're opposing the baddies. Cena, maybe? Not sure about that. | ||||||
| 8 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 14:30 |
in Ring of Honor, they've spent the better part of a year trying to get Homicide over as a heel. The fans love him so much, that's it's proven to be very difficult. even when he "turned", the crowd wouldn't have it. only now is he starting to get heel heat. when Low Ki, also a much beloved face, turned heel and joined Homicide's faction The Rottweilers, it was a much smoother turn, as he pretty much did the old school "rescue the champ, lay out the champ" bit. when he turned, it made it easier to hate Homicide. on the other end of the spectrum is Jimmy Rave. as a face, everyone HATED him. i mean, truly hated him, in the way a lot of fans truly hate Sean Waltman. when he lost a match and the stip was he lost his spot on the roster, many people actually cheered. then he came back as a heel, with Prince Nana having "bought" his contract, and in the process, raising the taxes of all the citizens of Ghana so he could afford Rave's contract. at first, the crowd hated this, well, because they were expected someone bigger because of the teases, and yep, they still hated Jimmy Rave. but then something strange happened. Jimmy Rave actually blossomed into a real good heel. his facial expressions, his mannerisms, his old school tactics, and now, he has a valet who he forces to get on her hands and knees in front of the ring, and steps ON her back, using her as a staircase to the ring, all were right on. and because he's so damned good as a heel? now, the crowd loves him. wrestling. go figure. | ||||||
| 9 | Bond, James Bond ID: 331154316 Sat, Dec 04, 2004, 23:59 |
Wow!...You guys have thrown out some very interesting names. Sorry to show my ignorance but were the Midnight Express rivals of the Rock and Roll Express. I don't remember who were in the latter group so it's hard to place them. However I do remember that Harley Race was my father's most hated wrestler ever. Said he cheated every single match and couldn't stand to see him win. I don't remember much about him. Was he ever a face? | ||||||
| 10 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sun, Dec 05, 2004, 03:12 |
Bond - Obsessed with Wrestling is a decent site to go to see photos and profiles of a large list of wrestlers. a good site for ordering tapes, and just learning some history, is Wrestling Classics... Kayfabe Memories is solid as well... | ||||||
| 11 | Bond, James Bond ID: 331154316 Sun, Dec 05, 2004, 17:36 | Kewl Tree...Thanks! | ||||||
| 12 | Tree ID: 510231619 Sun, Dec 05, 2004, 19:18 |
Sorry to show my ignorance but were the Midnight Express rivals of the Rock and Roll Express. forgot to answer this. yes. the MXE that most people know were first Condrey and Eaton (although there was a MXE with Condrey, Randy Rose, and Norvell Austin prior to this, but they weren't on the national stage). they were World Title contenders, and feuding with the Rock n Rolls and many others. then, suddenly, Condrey legit disappeared. i mean, flat out vanished. Eaton and Cornette had no idea where he was. so they brought in Stan Lane, who had a good deal of regional success with Steve Keirn (aka Skinner of the WWF) as the Fabulous Ones, to replace Condrey. the switch was nearly seamless. definitely an impressive example of a tag team with different members creating different, successful legacies... | ||||||
| 13 | TB ID: 59933268 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 14:13 |
 Road Warriors were my favorite heels back in the Hulkamania days. | ||||||
| 14 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 15:22 | "What a rush!" | ||||||
| 15 | wiggs Donor ID: 04991311 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 15:57 | LOD has always been my favorite tag team. | ||||||
| 16 | TB ID: 59933268 Mon, Dec 06, 2004, 16:05 |
When you click on Road Warriors at http://www.obsessedwithwrestling.com/ you get a picture of them when they were LOD. 
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| 17 | TB Leader ID: 031811922 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 00:16 |
I hope I didn't kill this thread by putting pics in it cuz it's a cool thread. "Hacksaw" Jim Duggan was a fun face to watch, and I loved it when he jumped in the ring with his 2x4. I have been trying all day to remember what he used to say to get the crowd motivated. I keep hearing a donkey noise, but that wasn't it....lol I hated the Iron Sheik. That must mean he was a good heel. I couldn't stand Arn Anderson either and that's because he always acted like a sissy until his opponents back was turned. Must be another sign of a great heel to get me to dislike him so much. Someone should start a thread on worst finishing moves. I hated Baron Von Raschke solely because of his stupid Iron Claw move. | ||||||
| 18 | slosh23 ID: 317242216 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 00:35 |
Great thread Bond... What about those heels that got cheered like faces? Can't believe I'm going to say it, but I was watching WCW for most of DX. Wasn't DX a heel team, but I would say they were cheered like faces. Another that I know of was the Horseman. I think to play the face requires so much more then to get over as a heel. And that is why my vote, at least for current wrestlers, has to go to Kurt Angle. He has to be the best, cause he actually got over as a face and he can still play the heel unbelievably. (Besides Flair...cause for my dollar it doesn't matter, he WINS...) | ||||||
| 19 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 041831612 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 06:55 |
I hated Baron Von Raschke too TB----in his entirety! Can't see the picture......... slosh-----nWo was in WCW (DX was in WWE). Same difference though. | ||||||
| 20 | Great One ID: 1113978 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 09:48 |
Mike - I think slosh is saying he didn't watch WWE so he isn't exactly sure how DX was recieved but I thought it was kind of like that. He knew they were the bad guys but he still saw 12 year olds on the playground doing crotch chops lol! | ||||||
| 21 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 09:51 | If so, my bad. That's the new breed of heels-----the HHHs, nWo, DX.......cheered even as heels. NOT like it was in the old days for the most part. When I stood up and cheered Greg "the Hammer" Valentine, he looked right at me and nodded his head.......because I was the only one cheering him. | ||||||
| 22 | blue hen ID: 372102211 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 10:57 |
Actually, I think HHH is booed more these days because of his relationship with the McMahon family than any actual heel actions. Honestly, I've yet to be impressed by Triple H the face. He's a great heel for a good number of reasons, but he doesn't have Kurt's versatility. I don't know that John Cena could get over as a heel... | ||||||
| 23 | Tree ID: 76471215 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 14:02 |
come on!?!?! how can you not like Baron Von Raschke. he's got the greatest selection of merchandise available on his website. here are the top three:   and of course, the one item no one can live without - the Baron Von Rasche fishin' lure:  | ||||||
| 24 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Tue, Dec 07, 2004, 14:51 | I sit corrected, after reading such a compelling post. ;) | ||||||
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