Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Mon, Oct 24, 2005, 23:07
I'm looking at the points and wondering if I slept through half the show. Nobody scoring, few total points.
This was the most boring Raw in months. Too many long winded promos, including the worst promo in history: Dr. McMahon operating on JR. God that was awful.
2
kev Donor
ID: 043111845 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 02:46
Does Hurricane actually get points for that? From what the announcers said, because Hurricane...err, Helms was not in the match, it was non title...so wouldn't Rosey be the only one getting points?
3
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:00
no.
WWE.com scored it as a tag match, to the point of actually putting "Hurricane gets wrestling points even though he never stepped in the ring". (They list all their fantasy points in their WWE Unlimited video.)
GO sent an email saying he thinks Foley was on TV 3x. Can anybody remember a backstage promo with Bischoff? That what he says he saw.
4
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:12
When did we start basing scoring on how WWE.com scores this stuff? Whenever part of a tag team failed to make it out to the ring the wrestler who stayed out of the match didn't get points. Its not my business anymore so I apologize for sticking my nose in but if I were still in the league I'd insist that we've established in similar cases that Hurricane shouldn't get points.
There have been a number of times when wrestlers backstage were jumped and couldn't make it out to their tag match. One was when Kane won the tag belts by himself b/c his partner Hurricane was jacked backstage. Without looking it up, I'd bet that we gave Hurricane the 25 points for winning the title but not the 25 points for winning the match. I'm sure there were a couple of others to dig up for precedent.
5
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:17
I was watching and agree with MITH. However, one thing I can't recall is if Hurricane was announced or not. But either way, I agree with MITH.
6
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:38
Hurricane was indeed announced. The announcers mentioned numerous times he was Rosey's tag partner. They kept saying "why isn't he helping his partner?". If he was allowed to go down and get involved in the match why would he not also get the points for the match?
I know he's mine but I've always scored like this. If a guy is announced as part of a tag team, and either doesn't come to the ring or stands on the apron before leaving he still gets tag points.
Oh, and I know I've used WWE.com to determine how a match finished (ie DQ, Count Out, No Contest). They list Hurricane as part of the match. So I really don't see why he wouldn't get the 12 if he was announced and could have walked to the ring and taken a tag.
7
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:42
From GO via email
Mick Foley was choking in the back and was approached by Eric Bischoff who told him to suck it up. He said no matter how badly his pride has been injured, he’d still be the referee for tonight’s main event and told him to "have a nice... night"
I will keep hunting around for Hurricane precedent and let you guys know if I spot anything. This one is tricky. I think the wwe official game is a useful second opinion for sure so I don't agree with disparaging how they score it.
What if Helms was a several steps closer to the ring and just stood there and wouldn't let himself get tagged in? Its not like he left the arena or was unconscious in the locker room - he was actually out there. He just didn't tag in, in a way - street clothes or not. Did we award Eddie points when he just stood there and didn't tag in when he was teamed with Rey? I think it was similar. But yeah, if he was announced (or not) that would sway things for sure...
GO
Mick Foley +2
8
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:54
Wasn't there a battle royale in which Nunzio was slammed on his way out to the ring by one of the exiting eliminated wrestlers? I think he just got 5 points for an appearance.
9
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:56
I do recall Foley and Bischoff in the back.
Hurricane being announced matters. The point about someone being laid out in the back and not making it to ringside----I can't imagine we gave them points. But how to distinguish? As has been pointed out, being on the apron and not accepting a tag is one thing. Being up on stage area----is that the same? Different? He didn't even have wrestling gear on.....if that matters (lol).
10
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 12:59
my feeling is if a guy is announced for a match and can legally enter he should get points. If he is attacked in the back and is never announced then he doesn't get points.
Him standing on the ramp shouldn't matter. The announcers kept saying "why isn't he coming to the ring? Why isn't he helping his partner?" If he considered Rosey's partner and was announced wouldn't that mean he's part of the match, clothes or not?
11
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:04
"clothes or not?" LMAO!
12
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:10
well, that rule works better for say Trish or Mickie James, but whatever. :)
13
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:23
If he is attacked in the back and is never announced then he doesn't get points.
I don't think that works. I believe both teamates are always announced. Its not like Lilian Garcia waits to make sure that both guys come out and are present before announcing them. I'm sure that when a guy is attacked in the back and can't get out to the ring he is still announced.
14
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:28
Let me ask this: If Hurricane had walked down the ramp near the end of the match in his street clothes and attacked Rosey, giving Cade and Murdoch a victory via pin, would Hurricane have gotten interferance points? No. He would have gotten match points. If he can get match points that way wouldn't that mean he was part of the match? He would have been seen as a tag partner, thus making it legal to attack his own partner. Wouldn't all that mean he was a legal tag partner and therefore gets 5?
15
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:29
errr, therefore gets 12.
16
Tree Sustainer
ID: 599393013 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:34
i didn't watch. from what i understand about the show, i thank god i didn't watch.
that being said, it seems to me that if a guy doesn't make it down to the ring for his match, he doesn't get points for being in that match.
17
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 13:44
Obviously I'm not in the league so my opinion shouldn't count for very much and to be honest I'm not sure that it was right for me to involve myself in this discussion at all. So I'll say this and leave it to you guys:
In an effort to establish a hard rule that deals with these gray areas I would suggest that an announced wrestler needs to make it to ringside to be considered a part of the match. So re the example in post 14, I would say that if Hurricane's attack happend during the match and at ringside or in the ring, give him points for a tag loss. If it happened further up the ramp or in the stands or elsewhere or after the match had officially ended, it was just a run-in.
In the interest of integrity I really suggest you guys try to dig up instances in which similar things happened and see how they were scored at the time.
18
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 14:00
Hmmmmmmmmmmm.
I agree that WWE.com scoring is NOT the end-all, be-all or OUR scoring -- but at the same time I think it is a good secondary source that can be considered.
Being announced, I would lean on the side that says he gets points for a tag team loss. I'm sure there's been a precedent set for this - i.e. face/heel teams thrown together where the heel jumps off the apron when the face needs a tag, never gets tagged in, but still gets tag loss points.
I'd like it to be known that, on a 'real time' scoring basis, I had the league lead when HBK came out as the 'curtain jerker'! ;-) And after winning that first match too - but when he came out, that was what I thought (I'm winning, I'm winning!).
19
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 14:23
LMAO! "Real-time scoring!"
MITH is right that we need to search this site and find examples.
I'm 99% sure when someone was jumped and never made it out at all they got nothing. I'm 99% sure if someone was on the ring apron and left without participating they did get points. But there is a huge difference there. And last night we had something in between both of those scenarios---Hurrican stand at the top of the ramp. Don't have time to search now.
20
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 14:27
The most helpful resource that I know of is the Lords of Pain Results page. They have detailed (some detailed better than others) reports archived from every show dating back for years.
21
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 14:46
I just don't get it. Hurricane was an official tag partner. The company that runs the business, WWE, has listed him as an official loser in the match at their very own website. And on top of they gave him losing points in their own fantasy game.
Wouldn't all that indicate he was a member of the tag team and a participant in the match?
I guess we are going to need a vote since there is definately some difference in opinion. And I'm not going through 5 seasons of results to see if there is a prior scoring situation.
22
Tree Sustainer
ID: 599393013 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 15:46
i just dont see the WWE fantasy game being something that we should base our opinions on. it sets a bad precedent.
to me, the bottom line is that he never made it to ringside, thusly was not an active participant.
23
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 16:26
Here is a thread where we discussed something similar to this. Please read it.