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Subject: Vote on Scoring for 10/24 Raw
Posted by: Farn
- Sustainer [451044109] Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 15:08
An issue arose in the scoring of Raw's 10/24 Episode.
The match was scheduled to be Hurricane and Rosey against Cade and Murdoch. Cade and Murdoch hit the ring first. Hurricane and Rosey were then announced by Lillian and Rosey came down, continuing to look behind him to see where Hurricane was. He didn't come.
As the match got underway Hurricane appeared on the ramp, dressed in regular clothes. Coach and Lawler said he wants to be known by his real name, Gregory Helms.
As the match continued and Rosey was getting beat down Coach and Lawler continued to say "that's his partner" (referring to Hurricane) and "why doesn't he go down and tag in?" and other such things. He never did and Cade and Murdoch won the tag match by pinning Rosey.
WWE.com scored it as a tag match and gave Hurricane tag points. WWe.com also listed it as a tag match under their results and listed Hurricane as a losing participant.
The question is, how do we score it?
Voting options:
A. It was a tag match and Hurricane gets 12 points.
B. It was a handicap match and Hurricane gets 5 for appearing and Rosey gets 15, not 12, for being a single's wrestler. |
| 1 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 15:09
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From GO
This situation has a grey area and calls for a vote. Majority rules.
I vote that Hurricane was a losing participant of a tag team match - GO
GO votes for Option A
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| 2 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 15:11
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In my opinion Hurricane was a tag partner. He chose not to take a tag. If he could legally have walked down the ramp and been tagged in he is a legal member. If he had jumped in and beaten down Rosey it wouldn't have been a DQ. So it wouldn't have been interferance.
He chose not to tag in. He was announced and was a legal tag partner for the match. Seems open and shut to me.
Farn votes Option A
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| 3 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 15:47
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because Hurricane did not make it to ringside, he wasn't an active participant in the match. period.
B. with a Bullet.
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| 4 | slosh23
ID: 358152712
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 16:01
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I agree that since he was there and could have been tagged in, plus no official annoucement was made to change the stipulations of the match it was a tag match.
slosh23 votes Option A
But then that adds if it was a tag match, shouldn't there be title defense points? I can't seem to find anything that confirms it was/wasn't a title match to start.
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| 5 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 16:23
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(it was a non title bout)
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| 6 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 41831612
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 16:28
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I think the vote is premature because no one has searched through our threads for precedent. I said I'd do it later. However, seeing as how people are already voting.......
Here is a thread where we discussed a similar issue. Please read it.
Looks to me like no participant points.
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| 7 | Great One
ID: 48842511
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:19
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my only question in that scenario is whether or not Big Show actually was out there interacting with those in the ring or he just didn't even come out.
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| 8 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:24
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my issue with that thread is we have no idea what the exact scenario was. Did he never appear at ringside? Was he announced?
I really think this requires a vote as the scenario seems a bit different. He was announced, he did appear. He just didn't wrestle.
I say we vote on this individually and then establish a concrete ruling for future problems.
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| 9 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:27
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Option A
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| 10 | Tree
Sustainer
ID: 599393013
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:53
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from the Lords of Pain website...
Match #4: John Cena & Chris Benoit vs. Brock Lesnar, (w/ Paul Heyman) Rhyno, Matt Morgan, & The Big Show in a Handicap Tag Match
John Cena busts a rap, saying he wants to apologize to Heyman 'cause when fatass was eating soap he should've rubbed some in his eyes, he was chewing soap as he was used to just dropping it, is his favorite Little Rascal Alfalfa or Spanky, Big Show was bobbing for apples in Heyman's bathtub, and his competition is soft. No mic-raising expletives tonight. Chris Benoit joins his partner afterwards, followed by their opponents: Lesnar, Rhyno, and Morgan. Show's music plays... but he's not coming out. They pan to the back, where a forklift is in front of Show's door, and a man is trying to move it. Lesnar is freaking out to Heyman as we cut to commercial.
~ COMMERCIAL BREAK 5 ~
Back from break, they're still trying to get that forklift out of the way. Heyman is trying to fire up Lesnar in his hometown, but the crowd starts a "You Tapped Out!" chants. Benoit faces Lesnar, but the champ rolls out of the ring. He comes back in, then tags Morgan in. Lockup, Benoit gets pushed into the corner. Benoit with chops and kicks aplenty. Cena in. Clubbing blows to the back of Morgan's head. He picks him up and slams him. Morgan comes back with a gut shot, then grounds Cena. Rhyno in to continue the assault in his corner. Side headlock by Rhyno. Cena pushes Rhyno out of it, but takes a shoulder knockdown. However, Cena gets up and nails the armdrag. Rhyno relentlessly keeps up the assault, and Cena, just as relentless, fights back. Clothesline by Cena gets 2. Benoit in. Benoit with a snap suplex. Cover for 2. Fists and chops by Benoit, but Rhyno whips Benoit hard to the corner, bouncing off it and falling to his face. Lesnar in. Lesnar clubs at Benoit's back, then stomps the hell outta him. Heyman is grinning from ear to ear in his high chair. Lesnar mocks Cena with his own hand gesture. Benoit with a chinbreaker, then tags in Cena. Cena with right hands and an elbow to the chest, but the champ didn't go down. Flying shoulder block does work, but only gets a two count. Lesnar takes control and works on Cena in the corner. Lesnar charges right into Cena's elbow, but Lesnar nails a vicious spinebuster. The champ is reeling, then makes a cover for 2. Another cover gets the same result. Cena stretches for a tag, but is denied. Rhyno gets tagged in as he stomps down Cena in his corner. Crisscross choke by Rhyno with his knee driving into Cena's back. The ref tends to Benoit as Lesnar comes in to assist the attack. Lesnar gets the tag and suplexes Cena. Again, he mocks Cena, but Cena takes exception and nails some right hands. Cena charges into a stiff knee to the gut by Lesnar. Lesnar drives Cena's spine into the turnbuckle, then nails some shoulders to his gut. Cena moves out of a Lesnar charge as he collides with the ring post, and Cena nails a DDT. Both men are down, and Heyman looks worried. Cena tries to reach Benoit... and Benoit's in! HE'S ON FIRE!! Benoit attacks Lesnar, then nails two German Suplexes. The third one fails when Lesnar reverses into a suplex attempt, but as a result, Rhyno accidentally Gores Lesnar!! Benoit hits Lesnar with more Germans, then its cutthroat time. Lesnar gets up and tries the F5, but Benoit reverses it in the Crossface! Rhyno breaks it up, and plants Benoit with a spinebuster. Both legal men are down. Rhyno tags in, but Benoit drop toe holds him into the second rope. Lesnar then grabs his belt and heads up the ramp. Then he gets jumped from behind by Hardcore Holly! Holly applies the Full Nelson as referees try to separate them. Lesnar cheap shots Holly, then runs away. The referees hold back an enraged Holly as we cut again to commercial. Heyman, meanwhile, is beside himself.
~ COMMERCIAL BREAK 6 ~
Back from break, Rhyno bodyslams Benoit as the crowd chants "You Ate Soap!" to Heyman. Rear chinlock by Rhyno. He tags in Morgan, who attacks and taunts the fallen Benoit. Rhyno gets the tag, knocking Benoit down a couple times. He tries again, but Benoit ducks and reverses it into a back suplex. Benoit stretches for the tag... but Rhyno knocks Cena off the apron. Belly-to-belly suplex by Rhyno. Rhyno looks for the Gore... and nails it! 1-2-Breakup by Cena! Morgan gets the tag. Body slam, but misses an elbow drop. Benoit takes Morgan down with an inziguiri. Cena gets the tag... HE'S ON FIRE!! Clothesline, then Throwback on Rhyno. Cena goes up top, then elbows the back of Rhyno's head! 1-2-NO! Cena keeps Morgan off the apron, but Rhyno Belly-to-Bellies him. The Gore misses, and Cena rolls him up for a near fall. Cena lifts Rhyno up for the FU... and nails it! 1-2-3!! Cena scores the pinfall! Lots of back and forth action... plenty of near falls... good story telling... This match was off the charts.
Winners: Chris Benoit & John Cena
Show did not make it to the ring.
and neither did Hurricane. coming to the ramp is not the same thing as coming to the ring.
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| 11 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:56
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Well done.
Now, was he announced? Or did his music just play.
I would like to note that I didn't score that show. And if you notice I wanted him to get points for being a legal participant.
I say we have this vote, then we finalize a rule to deal with this issue. We probably need to draw the line on a guy who is announced versus a guy who isn't. Or we can choose to have it just be somebody who stands on the apron. But this really should require a vote for now and future rulings.
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| 12 | Great One
ID: 48842511
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 17:59
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but it is a lot different than never appearing at all which is why there is a grey area.
would it have been different if he was 10 steps closer? he was still interacting directly with Rosey and saying "I am right here, but I am not going to help your big, about to be part of the next roster cut after our little fued is over a$$..."
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| 13 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 18:07
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Remember when people not involved in the match have come out onto the ramp-------we've not given them points UNLESS they've interfered or actually distracted someone in the ring. Different, I know, but an analogy of someone "on the ramp."
I'm almost sorry I brought up the issue of being announced because in every sceanrio I've thought of or has been raised, the wrestler has been announced as they were expected to be part of the match. This includes a bloody Ric Flair laying in a hallway in the arena somewhere. All night he was announced as being in the match, including by Lillian.
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| 14 | blue hen
ID: 349532121
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 18:27
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My vote, if I had one, would be for Option A. Hurricane was "on the outside" and could have tagged in. It was a tag match, and not a handicap match.
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| 15 | slosh23
ID: 358152712
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 18:43
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This doesn't really support how I voted earlier but here is the recap from Lords of Pain for the match last night...
Non Title Match
Referee: Jack Doan
Rosey vs. Lance Cade and Trevor Murdoch (c)
The music of the World Tag Team Champions is playing in the arena, and they are set for action against Rosey and the Hurricane, but Rosey made his way to the ring by himself after what happened last week on RAW with Hurricane slapping Rosey during the commercial.
The start:
Rosey knocked Murdoch off the apron and then Cade took over on him with right hands. Hurricane then made his way out to the stage wearing a shirt and sunglasses, and has stubble. Coach said he now wants to be known as Gregory Helms, his real name. Cade and Murdoch sent Rosey to the outside and then Cade took over with an elbow drop. Murdoch nailed a knee lift as Helms looked on shaking his head.
The Finish:
Murdoch acted as Rosey’s partner and Rosey actually tagged him and Murdoch nailed right hands and then tagged in Cade. Cade nailed an elbow from the top on Rosey but then Rosey fought back with right hands but then got knocked down by a flying shoulder. Murdoch and Cade gave Rosey a suplex and then hit the Sweet and Sour for the win.
Added to that from watching the match is that several times Rosey gestures to Helms to tag in, even holding up the tag rope and pleading for him to come to the ring.
Interesting addition as I was trying to dig in to this occuring before, I was looking for a good listing of when belts were won, etc...
Wikipedia actually has what seems to be a pretty thorough entry on the WWE, the superstars and the belt histories.
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| 16 | kev
Donor
ID: 043111845
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 19:55
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Option B
Hurricane wasn't even in ring attire. He wasn't near the ring- it was obvious he was having no part with the match...
It's not a big deal to me either way, I just thought it was weird he got as many points as Rosey.
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| 17 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Oct 25, 2005, 20:11
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WWE.com 'official' results - Read: NOT wwe.com fantasy game, but official results - list him as a tag team loser. He was announced. His entrance music hit, he appeared on the ramp, the bell rang, and his "team" lost. I think it counts at this point for a tag team loss.
I say we give him the 12 points and if we want to clarify the rule to account for this, we can.
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| 18 | Bond, James Bond
ID: 509592521
Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 00:45
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In my view, it would be highly presumptuous to anticipate that Hurricane, er, Helms would come down and assist Rosey as his partner after what transpired between the two last week.
However, in the interest of all that is fair and legal, Hurricane/Helms/The Hamburgaler or whatever moniker he chose to use at that time, was the legal, albeit inactive, tag team member of Rosey. And the only legal one at that! No other member of the WWE roster could have come down and filled in for him. He, and he alone, was the legal tag-team member of Rosey.
He could have chose to come down and legally entered into the match at any time of his choosing. Just because he so happened not to be dressed in his usual outfit and didn't look like he would participate and chose not to participate is totally irrelevant IMHO.
As such, give the man his 12 points. I select option A.
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| 19 | Great One
ID: 48842511
Wed, Oct 26, 2005, 07:28
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and as I kiddingly mentioned to Mike yesterday regarding ring attire - for all we know this could actually be his new ring attire - a dress shirt and dress pants (ala Izzy and Deranged of ROH!!!). We don't know. So thats irrelevant.
I think Species sums it up best on #17.
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