Posted by: Species
- Leader [07724916] Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 11:51
ECW
Tonight's Total
Al Snow
0
Ariel
15
15
Balls Mahoney
0
Big Show
25
15
10
Bobby Lashley
52
30
10
12
CM Punk
25
25
Daivari
20
15
5
Danny Doring
0
Elijah Burke
0
Great Khali
5
5
Hardcore Holly
12
12
Jazz
0
Joey Styles
2
2
Justin Roberts
0
Kelly Kelly
35
30
5
Kevin Thorn
0
Little Guido
0
Matt Striker
0
Mike Knox
5
5
Paul Heyman
0
Rebecca
0
Rene Dupree
0
Rob Van Dam
28
3
25
Sabu
0
Sandman
0
Shannon Moore
0
Sylvester Terkay
0
Stevie Richards
0
Tazz
7
2
5
Terry Funk
0
Test
12
12
Tommy Dreamer
0
Tony Mamaluke
0
Trinity
0
Tonight's Total Points
243
1
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 11:55
Notes:
- Oooops. Forgot Dreamer. 30 points for Dreamer
- Gave Kelly Kelly 5 points for a promo after her match
- Khali gets 5 for post match beatdown but the match participants (Daivari/Dreamer) did not - which I believe it consistent with post-match beatdowns(?)
- Gave Daivari 5 for pre-match rant/promo though
- Gave Tazz 5 for running off Knox - not that it matters
- Scored from recap
Interpretations up for debate as always.
2
Great One
ID: 539581613 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 12:25
Thanks Species.
The only other note I had written down was that RVD grabbed the mic and he and Punk agreed to dedicate their match to Sabu so I had +5 for both.
Curious if we want to start scoring the two guys with the masks on. They don't really have identities (and actually different people have played their role, though I think currently one of them is a Basham). Do we consider them on air talent yet? Perhaps with Heyman gone they will disappear anyway.
3
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 13:15
Did you see the show? I gave RVD "jerker" points but nothing else.
Can't see a way to fairly score the security guys. It's not like one of them is 6'8" and the other is 5'11" where you can tell them apart.
I could see you and Rude in a 'battle royal':
Rude: "My security guy should get 5 for interference"
GO: "No, that was MY guy!"
Rude: "No it wasn't, you putz!"
GO: "Yes it was, I'll kick your ass!"
Rude: "Bring it on, punk ass beoytch!"
;-)
4
Great One
ID: 539581613 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 13:21
"Did he just call me a punk as$...." :)
Yeah I caught most of it - RVD was curtain jerker. Then Punk came out. They then grabbed a mic and dedicated the match to Sabu and pointed to the sky ala Sabu.
That reminds me though, cause Sabu came out after that match with a chair and one arm in a sling to fight off the security guys and did an Arabian FaceBuster on Holly.
so in summation... for a pre-match promo RVD +5 CM Punk +5 and interference Sabu +5
5
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 13:24
That's right.....I read a spoiler recap that said that same thing - I must've skimmed over it when scoring this morning (or read a crappy recap).
I concur with GO's additions.
6
Greg Rude
ID: 91126518 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 18:44
My security guy is the Basham brother and I want reparation points for all that he has accomplished!!! (maybe 9 pts haha)
7
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 23:34
Punk didnt do anything in the RVD interview except point at the ceiling, I dont think he get points for that.
8
Tree
ID: 31119618 Wed, Dec 06, 2006, 23:56
My security guy is the Basham brother
only one of the Bashams is a security guy. you sure you got the right one? ;o)
9
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 01:10
Punk can not get points for the pre match interview he did nothing but point to the sky when RVD said this is for sabu.
10
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 09:26
Sounds good, take the 5 points back from Punk if thats the precedent.
Going forward for scoring purposes - if a guy with the mic looks at the guy without the mic and they talk and interact, will this not count?
In this scenario - in the middle of the ring RVD looks at Punk and says something like "you wanna do this for Sabu?" and Punk says something back (without mic) like "absolutely", then they both nod in agreement and point to the sky. This doesn't count as being part of a promo? Would it be different if RVD had just leaned the mic 3 inches to the left and we could have heard Punks response?
Did Batista get backstage vignette points at the PPV when all he did was sit there in silence as Grisham asked him questions? Actually, that was pre-taped earlier in the day so that may not apply... but if it were not pre-taped, would we have counted it as a backstage vignette?
I'm pretty sure this is supposed to be about being the focal part of a promo/vignette, whether its your body doing the talking or your mouth.
And now that Wiggs brings this to light... I'm pretty sure I should be scoring promo points everytime DX does their promo before a match - I don't see that added at Survivor Series Points (cause Punk was part of the DX promo when HHH had him do the "are you ready?". I'll have to look at some others.
11
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 11:01
GO, please dont take that as a personal attack on you about the punk points. I just think we need to change a rule. Terkey was out at ring side for an entire show, they must have shown him 10 times when burke did the announcing that night, and he got nothing because he never actually did anything on the mic or made any interference in the match, but we give points to guys walking in the back stage area out to the ring.
12
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 11:13
Punk and RVD were side by side, facing the camera, middle of the ring, music turned off, spotlight on them... discussing how they were dedicating the match to Sabu. It just so happened RVD had a mic and Punk didn't. But they spoke to each other in the promo. Two guys in the back don't have mic's on them do the same we score it - why? because there is better audio and we can hear them clearer?
Terkay was just standing there like a statue in the background though, he didn't interact with anything or with anyone. Thats another story though, cause personally, I think he "saying" something just by being there as a bodyguard essentially.
I personally think that everyone should have get something for being out there (just like managers who come out and don't interfere) but thats always been shot down when I bring it up. (I even proposed "manager" points which would be all inclusive with the interference so we wouldn't have to try and decipher if there was intference or not).
13
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 11:14
No worries on the personal attack - this is always just discussion cause there are such grey areas in this strange "game" we try and score.
14
Mike D Leader
ID: 41831612 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 11:55
Well said by both. I think we need to take time and look back over prior discussions to see where we are supposed to be currently on this issue. I know it was a topic previously. Then, if warranted, we can discuss future changes.
15
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:01
I think part of the problem is that I've always scored every show so in my head I know how I score things. The whole thingi s always subjective. Its just been easier because it's been on person.
The way I always try to score it is that if the person in the promo is involved in anything that happens they get points. Obviously speaking is a given. But if they interact in such a manner that without them the promo wouldn't be going in the same direction then they should get points.
For example, we all know Umaga doesn't speak. But if he appears in the ring with Alejandra who speaks about him and points at him then he should get points.
So if Punk was addressed,pointed at, reacted, etc then he should get the points.
16
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:04
Defining what garners promo points could use some refreshing. From GO's description, personally I would have included Punk in the promo points if I had seen the show. I think our intent in regards to promo points has always been something to the effect of - are the wrestlers involved forwarding some storyline/have a point?
Khali might be a great example of precedence. We saw a dozen promos where Daivari came out and talked on the mic while all they did was show Khali from a low angle to show how huge he is - he didn't even grunt. Yet, obviously this was advancing a storyline of how huge/unstoppable he is, etc, and I believe points were given and warranted.
wiggs - a separate argument about "appearance points" makes sense. For example, wwe.com - while never definitive as to how we make OUR rules, but often cited as a secondary comparative source - gives points for any wrestler who just shows up on TV. Like GO said, valets have never received anything unless they interfered. In Terkay's case, as you point out he is in some way advancing a storyline (bodyguard, or his being the teammate of Burke for example) by standing there while Burke announced, so in concept it seems worthy of something.
We give 2 points for back stage interview/vignette. What about 3 points for an "at-ring appearance"? Something at the ring would hold a slight bit more significance than something backstage, yet if all you do is stand there it should be worth less than a promo/run-in/interference.
Thoughts?
17
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:30
i guess my point is, Terkey did the same thing as punk, but everyone that posted said Terkey just stood there, no points. Punk did the same thing, except he pointed. I am sure if we went back and watched the show with terkey as the body guard he did something that could warrent the same points. I feel if 1 gets points then they both should. Thats all.
18
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:43
Regarding Species "at-ring" point idea - the 3 would certainly be reasonable for manager/valet/bodyguard, but I also think if we decided in favor of it, then the caveat would be that interference could NOT be added as well.. it would be all inclusive as its "their job".
19
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:47
I don't think Terkay did the same as Punk cause he just stood there (from my memory, and I was paying close attention, sitting there with a clipboard scoring it - BUT you are absolutely right, we could probably go through and find something that warranted points.
I think thats what the above point tweak would clear up.
But I still think Punk did a lot more, and was the focal point of the scene along with RVD.
20
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 12:50
ohhhhh......was it in the ring? Sorry when you said "Burke announced" I interpreted that to mean Burke was guest announcing (duh) and Terkey was just standing there.....lol
What GO has described seems as though Punk interacted with RVD who was on the mic. I think that interaction - meaning affirming that they (acting as a tag team that night) would dedicate the match to Sabu - is sufficient to garner promo points.
If Burke was there promo-ing how he and Terkey were the best thing since sliced bread and they are going to dominate, that their new team would rise to the top, etc and he is standing there, he would get thrown into the promo and earn points if I was scoring.
If Burke was promoting *himself only* and Terkey is just standing there, that wouldn't do it for me. Again, going back to my original point in post 16 - I think our intent for promo points was that those doing the promo were advancing a storyline/having a point. If Burke was promoting their TEAM, then Terkey being there has a point to a storyline.
21
Great One Sustainer
ID: 053272014 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 13:00
Thats a very good point, I could see how the content of the promo could change the perception of how its scored.
But I think you were right the first time Species - Burke was "guest announcing" specficially he was sitting at the table with Joey Styles for the night replacing Tazz who was having a surgery of some sort. Terkay was standing there behind Burke in kind of a bodyguard role.
Now to further confuse this, Burke was announcing the matches - but also was discussing how and Terkay were gonna take over ECW - so a promo within the announcing. Such confusion! lol...
22
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 13:34
wiggs raises a fair point, and dude I want to be fair, but again at least my interpretation as a part-time (but becoming more full time! lol) scorer is that there is no precedence for Terkey earning points for standing there while Burke guest announces.
A good example might be King Booker and Sharmell. Booker guest announced many matches - if Sharmell didn't get a headset on and be included, she would get diddly squat. Additionally, per GO's point in Post #21, Booker (in my example) would be commenting on the match and promo-ing how he was going to be his opponent in the next PPV - he would only early announcing points and no additional "promo" points. But of course if he interferes in the match or does a post-match beatdown, then he gets separate points for that.
If Terkey getting nothing for standing there, despite being shown on camera many times, is a 'loophole' in our scoring rules, so be it. I'm forced to come to the conclusion that Terkey doesn't get anything for that. If you would like to concur with my "at ring appearance" suggestion (and I agree with GO's suggestion that you EITHER get interference points or "at ring" points, no both) we can take a vote and close that loophole.
23
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Fri, Dec 15, 2006, 17:03
2nd paragraph above should read:
"...how he was going to beat his opponent...."
and
"....he would only earn announcing points...."
When in the hell is Guru gonna get spelling and grammatical checks on this thing! ;-)