Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 10:54
- Jericho was already in the ring when Raw started so Big Show got the jerker points.
- Snoop's interview was taped so Santino didn't get points for that promo.
- JBL had a promo before his match and then again after so 2 seperate 5 pointers for him.
- JR mentioned it many times and HHH mentioned it when he made the match: The main event was not over until Orton and Cena could no longer physically continue or until they had beaten everyone. So technically it didn't end until HHH hit his 2 pedigrees. Looking at it that way the 18 who took on Orton and Cena were the winners and would get 25 each and Orton and Cena get 12 each. All 18 appeared in the match and are listed below. Oh, and all 20 in the match get main event points.
Raw Roster Main Event Participants Umaga Hardcore Holly Cody Rhodes Kendrick Venis Snitsky Carlito Santino JBL Robbie Super Crazy Cade Murdoch Hacksaw DH Smith Paul Birchill Haas HHH
2
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 10:54
Top 4
Farn 149 Species 95 Great One 25 Wiggs 24
(Thanks HHH for a great main event idea.)
3
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 11:43
I think we need a ruling on this decision.
From Wrestlingbio.com
Thanks to Triple Threat Takeover rules, Triple H pitted his WrestleMania opponents, John Cena & Randy Orton, against the entire Raw roster. During the match, the two adversaries were forced to work together to eliminate Paul Burchill, Snitsky and Trevor Murdoch among others, before the rest of the roster charged over the ropes, disqualifying themselves and handing Cena & Orton the match. It didn’t end there, though. Triple H had his say, too, when he entered the ring and Pedigreed his WrestleMania competition, standing over their spent bodies with a look of satisfaction.
Cena and Orton won by DQ-
HHH wasnt part of the match but came out after the match ended.
4
Great One
ID: 1122611 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 11:53
Its a tough one, cause HHH did come out after the bell was called for and there was a DQ... but he did look he was there for competition (in full gear) as though he was part of the match and was just late to arrive. Perhaps it was just for a post-RAW darkmatch or something, but its certainly open to interpretation.
5
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 11:57
We have had situations before when there was a tag match an a partner didnt show up and IIRC they do not get the points for the match.
6
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:04
Yeah, after posting this I looked at sites to see what they did.
This is tricky. The bell rang. Sites are calling it a DQ. But JR kept yelling how the match doesn't end until those 2 can't stand or they win. Well that didn't happen until HHH arrived.
We may actually need a vote on this from everyone.
7
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:26
Very tough call. I think we have two "issues":
1 - Was there a DQ?
2 - Was HHH a participant?
If there was a bell called for by the ref, I think it turns into a DQ win for Cena and Orton. While true the announcers are noting the stipulations, the announcers aren't "officials" and the ref in the match called for the bell when 'the roster' jumped the ropes, thus breaking the rules of a tag match.
If HHH didn't show up until after the bell, wrestling gear or not, it would seem to me that he wasn't a participant. You can't hang your hat on the stip of "the entire RAW roster", because there were guys that did NOT appear in the main event (i.e. HBK).
I think they all get Main Event points, but I think it's a DQ win for Cena/Orton and HHH just getting 5.
8
Great One
ID: 1122611 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:31
This would have been a useful time for the wweDOTcom game to still be around cause we would have seen if they considered him part of the match.
9
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:35
Yea species, That is exactly what I was thinking.
Kennedy decided not to show up either, What the heck.
10
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 12:45
Agreed GO.
I'm certainly ok with anything. I would say we should get everyone to weigh in (well, everyone who actually still checks in) before we make any adjustments.
11
Greg Rude
ID: 152231618 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 17:34
I like Species input/idea in post # 7.
12
Great One
ID: 2241519 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 22:51
Like Sherlock Holmes (actually more like Matlock or Columbo) I've stumbled upon some evidence.
In the backstage promo HHH says "I'm rooting for you guys" to Cena/Orton. A rooting interest indicates someone that is watching the event and not a participant. Thoughts?
13
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Tue, Mar 18, 2008, 23:23
I just watched ECW. The bell clearly rings when they all hit the ring.
I vote for species ruling in post 7
14
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:21
I'd still like to hear from a few others... While waiting here's more info...
During the Raw Rebound on ECW last night, they showed the highlights. You hear JR say "There's no one left on the Raw Roster." Immediately they hit HHH's music and show him coming to the ring and you hear Lawler say "THERE IS SOMEONE LEFT ON THE RAW ROSTER!".
Am I crazy in thinking that means they are counting him as a member of that match?
15
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:33
Someone email Tree, Bobo and Zyre to request that they give their opinions, please. (I'd do it but I don't have Bobo and Zyre's email addys) I agree this is an important ruling with a fairly major effect on the standings.
Cliff is out of pocket most of the day...but if those 3 can opine we'd probably have a pretty decent consensus.
16
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:34
Farn- you are crazy- that i thought was a given.
HHH is clearly a member of the Raw Roster- but the problem is he never made it to the ring during the match. I can remember other times when there has been a tag match where a member of 1 of the teams did not make it to the ring. That wrestler did not get credit for the match.
I would say the bell rang about a minute before HHH music hits.
17
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:39
I would actually disagree wiggs. I think we have always given points to any tag partner who was announced and didn't appear.
Now this is a bit trickier in that guys like Y2J, Big Show, etc never appeared and therefore weren't included. But HHH did appear, albeit after the match was going, but the announcing crew made a point of saying he was a member of the Raw Roster and could jump in to the ring.
18
wiggs Sustainer
ID: 04991311 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 11:57
I think the decision on who won the match is not up for interpretation. The Ref clearly called for the bell
19
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:00
....and IMO, someone who walks to the ring after a bell is rung (ending the match), despite what the announcers are saying for entertainment/hype purposes, gets credit for a beatdown like the thousand other times it's happened.
I stand by my interpretation in Post 7.
20
Tree
ID: 3533298 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:28
i did not watch the match in question.
based on what i'm reading here though, it seems pretty clear to me.
the match ends when the referee calls for it to end, whether it be via pinfall, submission, countout, DQ, or something else.
if the ref called for the match ending before HHH hit the ring, then he wasn't in the match.
(is this the ruling we're looking for?)
21
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:32
that's fine then. I'm not gonna bother waiting for others. If the other 3 contenders for the title feel that way so be it.
Attn Mike D: please use the scoresheet below and ignore the first.
(if anyone sees an error let me know)
22
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:32
Points
Armando Alej. Estrada
0
Ashley
0
Balls Mahoney
0
Batista
0
Beth Phoenix
0
Big Daddy V
0
Big Show
28
3
5
2
18
Bobby Lashley
0
Boogeyman
0
Brian Kendrick
32
12
10
10
Brooke Adams
0
Candice
25
25
Carlito
35
15
10
10
Charlie Haas
20
10
10
Chavo Guerrero
0
Cherry
0
Chris Harris
0
Chris Jericho
25
5
10
10
Chuck Palumbo
0
CM Punk
30
30
Cody Rhodes
20
10
10
Colin Delaney
15
15
Curt Hawkins
0
Dave Taylor
0
Deuce Shade
0
Domino
0
Drew McIntyre
0
Dusty Rhodes
0
Edge
0
Elijah Burke
0
Eve Torres
0
Festus
0
Fit Finlay
0
Funaki
0
Gene Snitsky
20
10
10
Great Khali
0
Gregory Helms
0
Hacksaw Duggan
20
10
10
Hardcore Holly
20
10
10
Harry Smith
20
10
10
Hornswaggle
0
Jamie Knoble
0
JBL
60
5
30
5
10
10
Jeff Hardy
0
Jerry Lawler
2
2
Jesse
0
Jillian Hall
12
12
Jim Ross
2
2
Jimmy Snuka
0
Jimmy Wang Yang
0
Joey Styles
0
John Cena
30
2
18
10
John Morrison
0
Jonathan Coachman
0
Kane
0
Katie Burchill
0
Kelly Kelly
0
Ken Dykstra
0
Ken Kennedy
0
Kevin Thorn
0
Kofi Kingston
0
Lance Cade
20
10
10
Layla
0
Lillian Garcia
0
Maria
25
25
Mark Henry
0
Maryse Ouellet
0
Matt Hardy
0
Matt Striker
0
Melina
0
Michael Cole
0
Michelle McCool
0
Mick Adamle
0
Mick Foley
0
Mickie James
0
Mike Knox
0
Mike Mizanin
0
MVP
0
Nunzio
0
Paul Burchill
20
10
10
Paul London
12
12
Randy Orton
30
2
18
10
Ranjin Singh
0
Rey Mysterio
0
Ric Flair
34
2
2
30
Robbie McAllistor
20
10
10
Roddy Piper
0
Ron Killings
0
Ron Simmons
0
Rory McAllistor
0
Santino Marella
25
5
10
10
Sgt Slaughter
0
Shane McMahon
0
Shannon Moore
0
Shawn Michaels
7
2
5
Shelton Benjamin
0
Stephanie McMahon
0
Stevie Richards
0
Stone Cold
0
Super Crazy
20
10
10
Tazz
0
Theodore Long
0
Todd Grisham
0
Tommy Dreamer
0
Torrie Wilson
0
Trevor Murdoch
20
10
10
Triple H
9
2
2
5
Umaga
50
30
10
10
Undertaker
0
Val Venis
20
10
10
Vickie Guerrero
0
Victoria
12
12
Vince McMahon
17
2
15
William Regal
7
5
2
Zack Ryder
0
0
0
0
Total
764
23
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:36
Updated Top 4
Farn 104 Species 80 Wiggs 30 GO 25
24
Tree
ID: 3533298 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 12:44
oh. and you forgot the part where Tree's wrestlers each get 800 bonus points. and that includes guys on my bench.
and guys i haven't drafted yet.
25
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 17:17
Farn - I know this interpretation hurts you the most, but with all sincerity I feel it was consistent with our rules and previous interpretations, no matter what effect it has on the standings. I hope you don't really feel as if the other contenders ganged up on you in particular.
26
GoatLocker Leader
ID: 060151121 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 19:03
When I watched it I thought it would have to either be a DQ or since no one ever pinned Randy or Cena a no contest. I thought the ref was dq'ing some of the individual wrestlers like you might see in a weird gauntlet or elimination match. Umaga for instance actually played by the rules.
I also never felt like HHH was in the match and he was simply taking advantage at the match's end.
I would have to vote DQ/no contest and HHH was interfering and not an actual legal participant.
28
Mike D Leader
ID: 041831612 Wed, Mar 19, 2008, 22:01
First let me say I just read this for the first time. No one e-mailed me (the forgotten scorer, lol).
How were Cena and Orton supposed to win? I don't get that. If the bell rang, wouldn't they "win?" Hadn't they beaten "everyone?" I'm not clear on how it could be a DQ or a no contest.
Maybe I can view it somewhere on the web.
29
Greg Rude
ID: 152231618 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 01:14
Correct Maddog Michael Diamond, I believe the final scoring verdict was that they won by DQ - 18 pts.
30
Great One
ID: 1122611 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 10:04
Yeah, thats correct - Cena/Orton win by DQ
31
Mike D Leader
ID: 041831612 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 17:43
Yeah, but.....I wrote:
"How were Cena and Orton supposed to win? I don't get that. If the bell rang, wouldn't they "win?" Hadn't they beaten "everyone?" I'm not clear on how it could be a DQ or a no contest."
32
Greg Rude
ID: 152231618 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:15
Yes sir you are correct, DQ scoring.
33
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:15
Mike D - it was still a tag team match, requiring only 1 legal man in the ring at all times. On one side it was Cena and Orton, and the other was "The whole RAW roster".
Thus, when multiple wrestlers from one tag team rushed the ring to attack their opponents, the referee disqualified "the RAW roster" team on that basis.
Were you envisioning a handicap match instead? Or am I totally missing the point of your question?
34
Great One
ID: 2241519 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:16
It was eliminatin style, they needed to pin the 20 guys standing on the ring apron. After defeating about 10 of them... the remaining 10 jumped in and just attacked the Orton/Cena. This resulted in the referee ruling it a DQ in Orton/Cena's favor.
35
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 18:35
Put mine and GO's together and you have a great explanation. lol
36
Greg Rude
ID: 152231618 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 22:09
and me too.
37
Mike D Leader
ID: 041831612 Thu, Mar 20, 2008, 22:45
Ah, I get it now. Rude cleared it all up for me.
Not!
Thanks guys. I was thinking more of a battle royal/Texas Tornado situation.
It sounds to me like the scoring in post 7 makes the most sense if that is how it went down.
This was the official explanation from their own site
Army of Two
Thanks to Triple Threat Takeover rules, Triple H pitted his WrestleMania opponents, John Cena & Randy Orton, against the entire Raw roster. During the match, the two adversaries were forced to work together to eliminate Paul Burchill, Snitsky and Trevor Murdoch among others, before the rest of the roster charged over the ropes, disqualifying themselves and handing Cena & Orton the match. It didn’t end there, though. Triple H had his say, too, when he entered the ring and Pedigreed his WrestleMania competition, standing over their spent bodies with a look of satisfaction.
Sounds exactly like how Rude so eloquently described it, not!
40
Greg Rude
ID: 152231618 Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 05:24
Thats what I have been saying!
*does rude dance*
41
Mike D Leader
ID: 041831612 Sat, Mar 22, 2008, 11:13
I shoulda listened to Rude all along. Summarizes things so concisely, one could argue it isn't even there. He's brilliant.