Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:04
- Cody Rhodes: very tricky. He was a champion. He changed teams but didn't really lose his belt to win it back. I scored it as a tag win for him and a title defense. I don't think he gets 25 for winning a belt that was his. Feel free to debate
- Gave JBL 10 points because his promo was in the arena and broadcast over the loudspeaker.
Alica Fox +5 (Vickie's wedding assistant; real name Victoria Crawford)
2
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:04
Season
Week
PPV
Farn
2428
211
211
Mike D
2022
206
206
Tree
1307
136
136
Species
2318
131
131
Zyre
1994
116
116
Wiggs
1647
92
92
Great One
981
72
72
Goatlocker
878
62
62
Rude
1488
39
39
Bobo
1654
5
5
4
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:09
Please get a debate going on the Rhodes situation. Probably going to require a vote unless its unanimous.
I guess the real debate is:
1. Did he forfeit his belt and win it back on a new team? 2. Was he a real member of both teams? a. if so, does he get win and loss points? If so he would get lost tag title bout points plus win tag title belt points. 3. Find some middle ground (like how I scored it) and give him defense points but no loss points.
I would think if you say "Yes" to #2 he'd have to get every point for both teams. So he'd get loss points (12+5) and win points (25+25) plus the 12 for the bout.
My vote is for the way I scored it but its up to everyone else.
From the match description it sounded to me like Cody turned on Holly but was still a member of his team when they effectively lost the belt to TD Jr by himself. Then Cody has basically been awarded his belt by the aforementioned TD Jr, like having someone awarded a vacated title belt.
6
Great One
ID: 56438112 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:37
another point of view from 411 review... this makes it sound like he "walked out" on Holly and then sided with Dibiase and it was announced they were now a team. So that to me says he is on both sides.
411 review World Tag Team Championship: Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes def. Bob Holly and Cody Rhodes (c) via Pinfall (Million Dollar Dream)
DiBiase's music sucks long and hard. Jesus.
Anyway, I think a lot of people saw this one coming too. While I like the angle, I think they could have executed this a lot better. They could have at least given us a few minutes of Holly/DiBiase first before pulling the trigger. And they could have saved the announcement of their alliance until the match had already ended. It came off as anti-climatic to have Rhodes turn, then announce him the official partner, and THEN finish the match, because you knew exactly where it was going as soon as he turned. I dunno, maybe it's just me. I think it could have come off a lot better than it did, plus I was disappointed we didn't really get to see what DiBiase can do yet.
7
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:50
I'm in agreement on the dopey way in which it was carried out.
For those who didn't see it...
Dibiase asked to face Holly to start the bout. When Holly stepped in Rhodes hit him with a finisher. Dibiase then announced Rhodes was his partner and Rhodes tagged in Dibiase. Rhodes went to the apron on the Dibiase side and Dibiase hit his finisher.
This isn't easy. It could be debated you can't be on 2 teams at once. If he chose to tag with Dibiase he couldn't have been Holly's partner. but did he lose the belt and re-win it? Did he just "defend it".
8
Tree
ID: 3533298 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:00
to me, Rhodes gets points for winning and losing the title.
we don't award points to a team. we award them to individuals on that team.
the team of Cody Rhodes and Bob Holly *lost* the tag titles, so they individually get points for that.
the team of Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, Jr., *won* the tag titles, so they individually get points for that.
he does not, however, get double bout points, because the individual wrestler Cody Rhodes was only in one bout.
9
Great One
ID: 56438112 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:11
Yeah, I tend to agree with that. Especially if Cody starts the match in one corner as Holly's partner, and then by the end is standing in the other corner showing that he was on the other team. Its clearly defined he was on two different sides.
I see it as though he walked out on Holly... and a guy that walks out still gets loss points. And I see it as he was part of the other team that won as well.
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Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:18
but how can you be a part of 2 teams in the same bout? You are either on Holly's team or Dibiase's team. By saying he's on both could he have pinned himself? Could he have laid down and let Dibiase pin him and then stood up and declared he'd won? Heck, could he have pinned himself?
Just playing devil's advocate here. Doesn't really affect me either way.
11
Tree
ID: 3533298 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:31
but how can you be a part of 2 teams in the same bout?
by switching teams in the middle, such as what Cody Rhodes did. i could do the research, but i'm sure it's not the first time this has happened.
You are either on Holly's team or Dibiase's team.
he began the team as Bob Holly's partner, but ended it as Ted DiBiase's. He was never on both teams at the same time.
By saying he's on both could he have pinned himself?
no, because he wasn't on both at the same time.
Could he have laid down and let Dibiase pin him and then stood up and declared he'd won?
absolutely. but it would have been lame and less dramatic.
Heck, could he have pinned himself?
you already asked this. lol
12
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 14:07
Well how can you get pinned and declare you won? If he got pinned he lost. He then would have had to have been named a champion after a completed bout in which he hadn't been on the winning team.
There is no way you can say he could have been pinned and called a "winner". He would have to be on on one team or the other, thus making it hard to say he should get both sets of points.
13
Great One
ID: 56438112 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 14:45
How did we score it when Hogan was Savage's mystery partner swerve! and started the NWO whohoo!!! ok... it was close.
14
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:13
he began the team as Bob Holly's partner, but ended it as Ted DiBiase's. He was never on both teams at the same time.
Actually, if you see it as such, then he wasn't on the losing team. He was on the winning team and isn't eligible for points for a loss.
I guess in that respect he wouldn't get the 12+7 you are advocating for losing but he would get the 25 for winning.
15
Great One
ID: 56438112 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:29
So with that thought, its as though he never showed up on the side of Holly in the first place? thats a different perspective. If you no-show and you leave your parnter hanging... still get match points? still get title-match points?
16
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:37
this scoring is a disaster. there is no right answer.
We are gonna need a full vote on this is my guess.
17
Great One
ID: 56438112 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:15
Here's how I see it - He definitely won a title... cause he was in Dibiasie's corner and they were a team defeating the other team of Holly and the partner who ran out on him (regardless of who it was).
So thats 1 PPV match + 1 tag win + 1 tag title win. The question becomes, does he get anything for walking out with Holly and then subsequently leaving him high and dry? And based on our previous scoring I believe its a yes, tag team loss. Going with the whole "abandoned partner scoring" precedent... so on that side all he should get is tag loss points. He doesn't get the title match points on that side, and PPV appearance is only 1 per PPV anyway.
18
Tree
ID: 3533298 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:20
Well how can you get pinned and declare you won? If he got pinned he lost. He then would have had to have been named a champion after a completed bout in which he hadn't been on the winning team.
he didn't get pinned.
we judge the results by what happened to the team. we score the results by the individual, however.
if we were to award points to "Bob Holly and Cody Rhodes", instead of "Bob Holly" and "Cody Rhodes", then things might be different.
but we score the individual based on the outcome of the team.
There is no way you can say he could have been pinned and called a "winner". He would have to be on on one team or the other, thus making it hard to say he should get both sets of points.
he wasn't pinned.
and he was on both teams. that is an indisputable fact. he began the match as holly's partner, and ended it as dibiase's partner.
this scoring is a disaster. there is no right answer.
only because you're not seeing it clearly. i mean, it's obvious that Rhodes was on both teams.
he was announced as Bob Holly's partner to start the match, but he was announced as DiBiase's partner when the match ended. those are both undeniable facts.
it reminds me of the time when Barry Windham and Lex Luger were defending the NWA World Tag Team titles against Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard of the Four Horsemen. Toward the end of the match, Windham turned on Luger, attacked him, joined the Horsemen, and allowed Arn and Tully to win the titles.
granted, Windham was not a part of both teams, but he did begin the match fighting against the Horsemen, but ended it as part of the Horsemen, so in that way, it's similar.
You've had baseball players play for both teams in a double header. you can't have a wrestler be on both teams for a match?
19
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:26
doubleheaders = two seperate games Windham = wasn't on both sides legally.
I can't be the only one seeing it like this. You can't be on both teams. I asked guys not in this league and they unanimously agree you can't be on both teams and get both sets of points. So its not just me not "seeing it clearly."
20
Species Dude
ID: 07724916 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 17:08
I would not have given Rhodes credit for two matches or being on two teams.
If you want to 'split the difference', give Rhodes credit for Tag Title win and nothing else.
21
Farn Leader
ID: 451044109 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 17:08
WWE.com, usually the last word when we have no idea or need reassurance, can't decide.
The main NOC page says Rhodes/Dibiase beat Rhodes/Holly. But the title history page has only Holly listed as the loser.
22
Mike D Leader
ID: 041831612 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 23:29
This is unreal. I can see both sides of it. I think I'm leaning toward Rhodes not losing at all, based on Tree's individual argument. He entered the match and won, and actually retained his title. One match and one outcome for him. Holly loses his title. Dibiase wins his title.
That seems to make the most sense to me. Normally----if there is such a thing----we'd have a 4th guy in here somewhere, not just 3! I guess the 4th guy----like Dibiase's initial partner who didn't win the match/title, hypothetically---would just get a match loss.
23
Greg Rude
ID: 465292723 Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 23:41
I kinda agree with Farn on this one ... you can't give him both tag loss and tag win points. That's like saying there are 2 Cody Rhodes ... a clone. WWE PPV: ATTACK OF THE CLONES
24
Tree
ID: 3533298 Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 09:03
I kinda agree with Farn on this one ... you can't give him both tag loss and tag win points.
but i'm going to maintain that you can - because he did, win, and lose the title.
he lost it with one partner, but won it with another.
25
Great One
ID: 56438112 Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 09:05
FYI - Cody cut a promo after his PPV match too, so don't forget to tack those points on.