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0 Subject: Week 13 Night of Champions Points

Posted by: Farn
- Leader [451044109] Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:04

  Points          
Armando Alej. Estrada 0          
Ashley 0          
Balls Mahoney 0          
Bam Neely 20 10 10      
Batista 39 5 12 15 7  
Beth Phoenix 0          
Big Daddy V 0          
Big Show 34 12 15 7    
Bobby Lashley 0          
Boogeyman 0          
Brian Kendrick 0          
Brooke Adams 0          
Candice 0          
Carlito 0          
Charlie Haas 0          
Chavo Guerrero 39 12 12 5 10  
Cherry 0          
Chris Harris 0          
Chris Jericho 42 10 12 15 5  
Chuck Palumbo 0          
CM Punk 5 5        
Cody Rhodes 45 12 25 8    
Colin Delaney 0          
Curt Hawkins 15 5 10      
Dave Taylor 0          
Deuce Shade 0          
Domino 0          
Drew McIntyre 0          
Dusty Rhodes 0          
Edge 59 5 12 30 12  
Elijah Burke 0          
Evan Bourne 0          
Eve Torres 0          
Festus 0          
Fit Finlay 29 12 12 5    
Funaki 0          
Gene Snitsky 0          
Great Khali 0          
Gregory Helms 0          
Hacksaw Duggan 0          
Hardcore Holly 29 12 12 5    
Harry Smith 0          
Hornswaggle 29 12 12 5    
Jamie Noble 0          
JBL 10 10        
Jeff Hardy 0          
Jerry Lawler 5 5        
Jesse 0          
Jillian Hall 0          
Jim Ross 5 5        
Jimmy Snuka 0          
Jimmy Wang Yang 0          
Joey Styles 0          
John Cena 59 5 12 15 7 20
John Morrison 45 12 25 8    
Jonathan Coachman 0          
JTG 0          
Kane 34 12 15 7    
Katie Burchill 29 12 15 2    
Kelly Kelly 0          
Ken Dykstra 0          
Ken Kennedy 0          
Kevin Thorn 0          
Kofi Kingston 72 12 30 30    
Lance Cade 10 10        
Layla 0          
Lena Yada 0          
Lillian Garcia 0          
Maria 0          
Mark Henry 92 12 30 50    
Maryse Ouellet 0          
Matt Hardy 52 12 30 10    
Matt Striker 0          
Melina 0          
Michael Cole 5 5        
Michelle McCool 0          
Mike Adamle 5 5        
Mick Foley 5 5        
Mickie James 47 12 30 5    
Mike Knox 0          
Mike Mizanin 45 12 25 8    
MVP 0          
Nattie Niedhart 0          
Nunzio 0          
Paul Burchill 5 5        
Paul London 0          
Randy Orton 0          
Ranjin Singh 0          
Rey Mysterio 0          
Ric Flair 0          
Robbie McAllistor 0          
Roddy Piper 0          
Ron Killings 0          
Ron Simmons 0          
Rory McAllistor 0          
Santino Marella 0          
Sgt Slaughter 0          
Shad Gaspard 0          
Shane McMahon 0          
Shannon Moore 0          
Shawn Michaels 10 10        
Shelton Benjamin 0          
Stephanie McMahon 0          
Stevie Richards 0          
Stone Cold 0          
Super Crazy 0          
Tazz 5 5        
Ted Dibiase Jr. 67 5 12 25 25  
Theodore Long 0          
Todd Grisham 5 5        
Tommy Dreamer 0          
Torrie Wilson 0          
Trevor Murdoch 0          
Triple H 79 5 12 30 12 20
Umaga 0          
Undertaker 0          
Val Venis 0          
Vickie Guerrero 15 5 10      
Victoria 0          
Vince McMahon 0          
Vladimir Kozlov 0          
William Regal 0          
Zack Ryder 15 5 10      
  0          
  0          
  0          
Total 1106
1Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:04
- Cody Rhodes: very tricky. He was a champion. He changed teams but didn't really lose his belt to win it back. I scored it as a tag win for him and a title defense. I don't think he gets 25 for winning a belt that was his. Feel free to debate

- Gave JBL 10 points because his promo was in the arena and broadcast over the loudspeaker.


Alica Fox +5 (Vickie's wedding assistant; real name Victoria Crawford)
2Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:04
  Season Week PPV
Farn 2428 211 211
Mike D 2022 206 206
Tree 1307 136 136
Species 2318 131 131
Zyre 1994 116 116
Wiggs 1647 92 92
Great One 981 72 72
Goatlocker 878 62 62
Rude 1488 39 39
Bobo 1654 5 5
4Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:09
Please get a debate going on the Rhodes situation. Probably going to require a vote unless its unanimous.

I guess the real debate is:

1. Did he forfeit his belt and win it back on a new team?
2. Was he a real member of both teams?
a. if so, does he get win and loss points? If so he would get lost tag title bout points plus win tag title belt points.
3. Find some middle ground (like how I scored it) and give him defense points but no loss points.


I would think if you say "Yes" to #2 he'd have to get every point for both teams. So he'd get loss points (12+5) and win points (25+25) plus the 12 for the bout.

My vote is for the way I scored it but its up to everyone else.
5 Zyre
      ID: 47349132
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:23
From the match description it sounded to me like Cody turned on Holly but was still a member of his team when they effectively lost the belt to TD Jr by himself. Then Cody has basically been awarded his belt by the aforementioned TD Jr, like having someone awarded a vacated title belt.
6Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:37
another point of view from 411 review... this makes it sound like he "walked out" on Holly and then sided with Dibiase and it was announced they were now a team. So that to me says he is on both sides.

411 review
World Tag Team Championship: Ted DiBiase and Cody Rhodes def. Bob Holly and Cody Rhodes (c) via Pinfall (Million Dollar Dream)

DiBiase's music sucks long and hard. Jesus.

Anyway, I think a lot of people saw this one coming too. While I like the angle, I think they could have executed this a lot better. They could have at least given us a few minutes of Holly/DiBiase first before pulling the trigger. And they could have saved the announcement of their alliance until the match had already ended. It came off as anti-climatic to have Rhodes turn, then announce him the official partner, and THEN finish the match, because you knew exactly where it was going as soon as he turned. I dunno, maybe it's just me. I think it could have come off a lot better than it did, plus I was disappointed we didn't really get to see what DiBiase can do yet.
7Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 12:50
I'm in agreement on the dopey way in which it was carried out.


For those who didn't see it...

Dibiase asked to face Holly to start the bout. When Holly stepped in Rhodes hit him with a finisher. Dibiase then announced Rhodes was his partner and Rhodes tagged in Dibiase. Rhodes went to the apron on the Dibiase side and Dibiase hit his finisher.

This isn't easy. It could be debated you can't be on 2 teams at once. If he chose to tag with Dibiase he couldn't have been Holly's partner. but did he lose the belt and re-win it? Did he just "defend it".
8Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:00
to me, Rhodes gets points for winning and losing the title.

we don't award points to a team. we award them to individuals on that team.

the team of Cody Rhodes and Bob Holly *lost* the tag titles, so they individually get points for that.

the team of Cody Rhodes and Ted DiBiase, Jr., *won* the tag titles, so they individually get points for that.

he does not, however, get double bout points, because the individual wrestler Cody Rhodes was only in one bout.
9Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:11
Yeah, I tend to agree with that. Especially if Cody starts the match in one corner as Holly's partner, and then by the end is standing in the other corner showing that he was on the other team. Its clearly defined he was on two different sides.

I see it as though he walked out on Holly... and a guy that walks out still gets loss points. And I see it as he was part of the other team that won as well.
10Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:18
but how can you be a part of 2 teams in the same bout? You are either on Holly's team or Dibiase's team. By saying he's on both could he have pinned himself? Could he have laid down and let Dibiase pin him and then stood up and declared he'd won? Heck, could he have pinned himself?

Just playing devil's advocate here. Doesn't really affect me either way.
11Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 13:31
but how can you be a part of 2 teams in the same bout?

by switching teams in the middle, such as what Cody Rhodes did. i could do the research, but i'm sure it's not the first time this has happened.

You are either on Holly's team or Dibiase's team.

he began the team as Bob Holly's partner, but ended it as Ted DiBiase's. He was never on both teams at the same time.

By saying he's on both could he have pinned himself?

no, because he wasn't on both at the same time.

Could he have laid down and let Dibiase pin him and then stood up and declared he'd won?

absolutely. but it would have been lame and less dramatic.

Heck, could he have pinned himself?

you already asked this. lol
12Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 14:07
Well how can you get pinned and declare you won? If he got pinned he lost. He then would have had to have been named a champion after a completed bout in which he hadn't been on the winning team.

There is no way you can say he could have been pinned and called a "winner". He would have to be on on one team or the other, thus making it hard to say he should get both sets of points.
13Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 14:45
How did we score it when Hogan was Savage's mystery partner swerve! and started the NWO whohoo!!! ok... it was close.
14Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:13
he began the team as Bob Holly's partner, but ended it as Ted DiBiase's. He was never on both teams at the same time.

Actually, if you see it as such, then he wasn't on the losing team. He was on the winning team and isn't eligible for points for a loss.

I guess in that respect he wouldn't get the 12+7 you are advocating for losing but he would get the 25 for winning.
15Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:29
So with that thought, its as though he never showed up on the side of Holly in the first place? thats a different perspective. If you no-show and you leave your parnter hanging... still get match points? still get title-match points?
16Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 15:37
this scoring is a disaster. there is no right answer.

We are gonna need a full vote on this is my guess.
17Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:15
Here's how I see it - He definitely won a title... cause he was in Dibiasie's corner and they were a team defeating the other team of Holly and the partner who ran out on him (regardless of who it was).

So thats 1 PPV match + 1 tag win + 1 tag title win. The question becomes, does he get anything for walking out with Holly and then subsequently leaving him high and dry? And based on our previous scoring I believe its a yes, tag team loss. Going with the whole "abandoned partner scoring" precedent... so on that side all he should get is tag loss points. He doesn't get the title match points on that side, and PPV appearance is only 1 per PPV anyway.
18Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:20
Well how can you get pinned and declare you won? If he got pinned he lost. He then would have had to have been named a champion after a completed bout in which he hadn't been on the winning team.

he didn't get pinned.

we judge the results by what happened to the team. we score the results by the individual, however.

if we were to award points to "Bob Holly and Cody Rhodes", instead of "Bob Holly" and "Cody Rhodes", then things might be different.

but we score the individual based on the outcome of the team.

There is no way you can say he could have been pinned and called a "winner". He would have to be on on one team or the other, thus making it hard to say he should get both sets of points.

he wasn't pinned.

and he was on both teams. that is an indisputable fact. he began the match as holly's partner, and ended it as dibiase's partner.

this scoring is a disaster. there is no right answer.

only because you're not seeing it clearly. i mean, it's obvious that Rhodes was on both teams.

he was announced as Bob Holly's partner to start the match, but he was announced as DiBiase's partner when the match ended. those are both undeniable facts.

it reminds me of the time when Barry Windham and Lex Luger were defending the NWA World Tag Team titles against Arn Anderson and Tully Blanchard of the Four Horsemen. Toward the end of the match, Windham turned on Luger, attacked him, joined the Horsemen, and allowed Arn and Tully to win the titles.

granted, Windham was not a part of both teams, but he did begin the match fighting against the Horsemen, but ended it as part of the Horsemen, so in that way, it's similar.

You've had baseball players play for both teams in a double header. you can't have a wrestler be on both teams for a match?
19Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 16:26
doubleheaders = two seperate games
Windham = wasn't on both sides legally.


I can't be the only one seeing it like this. You can't be on both teams. I asked guys not in this league and they unanimously agree you can't be on both teams and get both sets of points. So its not just me not "seeing it clearly."
20Species
      Dude
      ID: 07724916
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 17:08
I would not have given Rhodes credit for two matches or being on two teams.

If you want to 'split the difference', give Rhodes credit for Tag Title win and nothing else.
21Farn
      Leader
      ID: 451044109
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 17:08
WWE.com, usually the last word when we have no idea or need reassurance, can't decide.

The main NOC page says Rhodes/Dibiase beat Rhodes/Holly. But the title history page has only Holly listed as the loser.
22Mike D
      Leader
      ID: 041831612
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 23:29
This is unreal. I can see both sides of it. I think I'm leaning toward Rhodes not losing at all, based on Tree's individual argument. He entered the match and won, and actually retained his title. One match and one outcome for him. Holly loses his title. Dibiase wins his title.

That seems to make the most sense to me. Normally----if there is such a thing----we'd have a 4th guy in here somewhere, not just 3! I guess the 4th guy----like Dibiase's initial partner who didn't win the match/title, hypothetically---would just get a match loss.

23Greg Rude
      ID: 465292723
      Mon, Jun 30, 2008, 23:41
I kinda agree with Farn on this one ... you can't give him both tag loss and tag win points. That's like saying there are 2 Cody Rhodes ... a clone. WWE PPV: ATTACK OF THE CLONES
24Tree
      ID: 3533298
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 09:03
I kinda agree with Farn on this one ... you can't give him both tag loss and tag win points.

but i'm going to maintain that you can - because he did, win, and lose the title.

he lost it with one partner, but won it with another.
25Great One
      ID: 56438112
      Tue, Jul 01, 2008, 09:05
FYI - Cody cut a promo after his PPV match too, so don't forget to tack those points on.
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