Posted by: Tree
- Donor [337442918] Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 07:11
here we go - obviously it could change if people adjust their keepers, but currently:
1. Fock Fear, Drink Beer - Adam H 2. S.C.Y.T.H.E. - Tree 3. Team Sucka - Farn 4. Flying Jalapeno's - MITH 5. Rolling Thunder - Wiggs 6. Never Leave Your Buddy's Behind - Great Onr 7. Controlled Destruction - Kev 8. Old Italian Disorder - MIST 9. Eight Henchmen - Goat Locker 10. It's Not For Everyone - Mike D 11. Team Bring It - Blue Hen & Mach 12. Endangered - Species
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41
kev
ID: 3155515 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:59
awful keepers?
Your right!
42
kev
ID: 3155515 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 16:01
I actually kept Coach because he is having a push right now....Nash is old, and is on TV half the time.
Bischoff is actually a nice guy to have. He has a match here and there, and is a garunteed points guy every week.
I need a Hurricane push...Kidman is back, and is going to be good.
43
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:06
i'm sorry there was ever any suggestion of changing keepers, and i'll regret if we allow such a thing to go on.
to me, whether within the rules or not, changing one's keepers just because of what other people have, is tantamount to cheating. i'm not calling anyone a cheater here, but i see no difference between what is going on here, and being able to change one's bet in a poker game after being able to see everyone else's hand.
keepers should be posted once, and what's done is done, barring injury. i made a mistake in suggesting an opportunity to re-arrange, because i presumed people would do it just because of second thoughts, not to better a draft position.
if we wanted to do it to better a draft position, we should have posted keepers. then 24 hours have a final keeper posting. the difference is that there would have been no posting of numbers or anything like that, and no discussion, and that way, there is no tipping of the hand.
i simply think we screwed up, and the original keepers posted should be the keepers maintained.
I see both positions. My plan from the beginning was to post the 4 keepers I did and then decide wheth I wanted to replace Rodney Mack with Mark Henry, depending on my draft position and whether the difference will help it. My draft position is poor and and the change will clearly help, so I do want to make that switch. But I've made plenty enough waves as it is in the past few days, so if the established keepers in the Postseason Keepers thread are going to remain with no changes being made, then I will be happy with what I have. I'm not going to push this issue, but if any changes are allowed to the established keepers, then I want Henry rather than Mack.
Given the wrench that it would throw into the keeper evalulating, I believe we must have a minimum of 4 keepers. Really, if we are allowed to carry fewer than 4, my best strategy might be to keep Vince and Trish and no one else. I don't think it would serve the league well to allow that.
I guess i just dont understand why it isnt just reverse order for the finish. I shouldnt be punished 2 years in a row because i picked 3 guys that didnt play the whole season. I finished 10th this year, and i should get the 3rd over all pick. In any other fantasy keeper leagues the draft goes by finish, not who is eligible to be kept. Seems this system benefits Tree, kev and goatlocker and hurts farn, mike D and BH.
50
Athletics Guy
ID: 1818115 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 18:54
Changing keepers (Shelton Benjamin to Tim Brown)
Lita Grenier The Rock Tim Brown
51
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 18:56
exactly why this method is crap.
52
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:02
whatever. it's 7 pm. if we allow these changes, the following post from me is the new draft order.
and we need to find a better method for next year. period.
blue hen Leader
ID: 331038201 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:19
Thanks for posting Tree. Remember (and this is the most important part) - treat this like Survivor or Big Brother. None of this is personal. Mach and I are just playing the game.
We made decisions based on what we said we were going to do and I did that. Then because people don't like the draft order we go back and change things.
Sorry guys, I'm just done.
Cliff
60
blue hen Leader
ID: 331038201 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:37
MITH is right. That's an official switch in post 46. He moved up to 7th pick. Bravo for that.
Goatlocker, I can see why you'd be fed up with this, but I really think you shouldn't give up. We'll get this settled soon enough (and move into a really slow draft).
I made my move and it bought me two slots in the draft order, then everybody sees what I've done and they change to nullify that move. That's absolute B. S. That's why I would quit now. If I'd have known this crap was going on, I'd have never kept Basham, I would have kept Lance Storm. I did what I did to move up two slots. Again, it's BS.
Cliff
62
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:43
sorry MITH - i didn't see that, and i'll change the spreadsheet accordingly...
that being said, i agree 100 percent with what Cliff is saying. while i don't agree with his actions - even though i nearly did it myself - and the only thing that kept me from doing so was cooling off by taking my dog for a walk - he's totally right.
we agreed on something. and then people whined and took advantage of a loophole. and it's frustrating and annoying.
63
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:46
ugh. screw it. i can't post something right now, because it's just gonna change again.
i'm not keen on losing an owner, particularly our runner-up and the guy who led for a large portion of the year.
It was my understanding that rosters would be set and that everyone would have an opportunity to make changes. This was established and the obvious thing to do seemed to be to try to improve our positions.
If you want to quit that is fine, but understand that I believe that everything that has been bickered over this weekend was in earnest attempt on everyone's part to make the league as good as possible. It's just a matter of different opinions and priorities among the members. Regardless, I fully understand if the bickering or chaos has turned you off for good, but please don't sabatoge the rest of us by dropping out so suddenly. Please, at the very least, participate in the draft and act as a interm manager until we can find a replacement for you. I personally like the way this played out. Any league like this is a constant work in progress.
64 was not my understanding at all, and that is what I am upset about. If I'd have known that, then I'd have kept Storm and changed to Basham at the last second. My understanding was changes could only happen if you had a wrestler injured tonite.
66
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:00
the closest we came to any discussion of swapping about keepers came in post 22 of this thread.
i made the suggestion in that post about possibly changing around keepers because numerous people wanted to "reserve the right" to swap keepers around, and i felt some sort of deadline had to be levied.
i made the suggestion to be a nice guy - to allow for some honest change of hearts - absolutely NOT to allow people to improve draft position.
Post 2, by Species: Reserving the right to change it before the draft starts...... Your Beloved Champions, Endangered, will keep the following:
Post 4, by Goatlocker: Also reserving the right to change it before the draft starts...... Your Sucky second or third place team, Eight Henchmen, will keep the following:
Post 22, by Tree: 1. Keepers must be finalized by 7 p.m. eastern Monday night. this allows me a little bit of time to finalize and post the draft order.
Now, nobody mentioned anything about needing to see a wrestler go down with injury until later in post 22 of that thread, when tree typed:
3. Injury exemption - if one of your keepers suffers a serious injury during raw - the kind of injury that could keep him/her out of action for a long time, you can change that keeper by 12 noon eastern on Tuesday. but you can only do this for ONE team member - if two guys break their legs, you're SOL.
I didn't understand this when I read it, as I was under the impression from the previous threads that we had the right to make a change until the deadline. This was my plan all along, since before Friday. I was going to raise the issue but when I read posts 2 and 4 in that thread back on Friday and no one raised issue with them, it seemed like my thinking was the consensus.
68
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:16
the difference, i think, is the presumption that the purpose of "reserving the right" to change keepers was not for the purpose of getting a better draft position, but rather an honest change of heart.
Exactly, if I'd have known from the beginning I had draft choice #11, I would have kept Lance Storm and not Doug Basham. The only reason I kept Basham was to move up. Once I did that, then it made it obvious to others what they had to do to move around me. I never thought I could change after the fact to move draft positions.
Mike D Donor
ID: 23715270 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:39
Wow, these developments are lame. The rules have constantly changed-----or their interpretations have changed----as the season has gone on. I've chalked it up to a low stress/group created league that will evolve. I certainly prefer having laid out rules that aren't changing. I thought Tree leaving that window to change keepers was ludicrous. But figured it wouldn't really be taken advantage of anyway, as he said, unless there was injury, so whatever.
And all those "reserve the right" things were ridiculous----unless a lot of time dragged on to the draft (a week etc).
Not a whole lot of fun right now guys. That's the only reason I'm here. It ain't the cash prizes. Now I feel bad for even mentioning this league to Adam H.
Hey Tree----still like keepers? ;)
72
wiggs Donor
ID: 27735145 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:42
i still havent gotten an answer to my post 49. I would really like an answer. Nothing personal tree, but i think if this would have cost you 2 spots instead of giving you 2 then you would have different feelings about all this. i dont remember reading anything about points from keepers effecting draft position for future drafts, if i missed it then that is my mistake, but either way, draft should be in reverse order from the finish reguardless of keepers.
At this point, what's one is done. Consider that all of these details will have been hammered out in plenty of time for our next draft.
Once the draft has finished, I think I will propose we elect a commish and declare specifically what his responsibilities and authority will be. A long time ago I considered doing that but the league seemed to be running really smoothly without one and I figured it wasn't broke. But it seems to me that having an elected authority figure here might have helped to avoid some or most of this weekend's chaos. But I don't want to think about that until the draft is done.
Anyhow, I'm sure that I speak for everyone when I say that we would not like to see our 2nd place manager leave the league, but if you still feel it's best, I request that you please stick around and participate long enough for us to replace you.
74
Mike D Donor
ID: 23715270 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:43
It was in one of those old threads somewhere wiggs, so you'll get a "we discussed it" answer. Even though the formula was clear as mud.
75
Mike D Donor
ID: 23715270 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:44
Why is what's done, done? Why ruin the good stuff that has taken place with these rash decisions?
76
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:45
lol. i do like keeper leagues mike d.
what i don't like is the fact that right now i feel like a heel - not in the wrestling sense - but like...i left that window open to be a nice guy - because hey, we change our minds sometimes.
because, as you said, this was a low-stress/group-created thing. it was fun. it's not fun now.
i wish i had just said - nope, once keepers are posted, they're final, with the Michael Vick Rule being the exception. by not being firm, i opened up a huge can of worms - i feel at fault, but i will say i honestly didn't even think there would be the sort of manuevering around that has happened.
it just didn't enter my mind, because of how the league has gone so far.
77
wiggs Donor
ID: 27735145 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:47
i guess i just didnt understand the idea. Am i the only one that feels keepers shouldnt matter, because if i am then i will drop it, just seems pretty crappy i should be punished for having 3 good wrestlers and 2 crappy all season, leaving me in 10 or 11th place all season and still not get a top 3 draft choice.
Btw, i like wiggs idea as well. In any sport the worst teams always draft first, no matter who they have left on their roster.
That said I am still ok with this point system to determine draft order because that was the original plan. But I would be fine with the order of finish determines draft as well. But lets act fast.
81
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:02
as for the draft - we voted on a system - and at the very list, i think we have to keep it for this draft. we voted on it, and we discussed it recently, after we'd voted on it.
as i stated earlier, in a league like this with a small roster and a small talent pool, a major injury can take you out of the running for the season, and this system helps compensate for that the following season.
82
blue hen Leader
ID: 331038201 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:03
For what it's worth, Mach and I never intended to keep Shelton Benjamin (as long as his keeper points lowered our draft position). That's why we picked up Tim Brown, of course.
The Mike Vick Rule is crap. In football or in here.
But the bottom line is this... you make the rules and we'll live with it. Who "you" is, I'm not so sure, but I just want to move forward with this and have wrestlers to cheer for every week.
That's right, wrestlers to cheer for every week. I stopped watching wrestling when I didn't ever have my guys on. Let's keep this league interesting or I'm sure other people will want to quit too...
83
wiggs Donor
ID: 27735145 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:05
tree, please show me where i voted that we count points from the keepers and count them against the draft? I sure as hell dont remember voting in favor of that.
BTW Cliff, i emailed you, but my regular email server isn't working right, so i dont know if you got it..if not..shoot me an email...
87
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:26
Wiggs - no, you didn't vote for it. in fact, while you weren't completely a dissenting opinion, you did raise an issue.
nonetheless, if you follow the threads, the whole discussion started here in post 44, when MITH said he would like to see the quality of keepers impact your draft position.
in post 45, i proposed a system, and by post 61, a majority had voted in favor. in fact, some of those in favor were enthusiastically in favor.
this is a disastor. someone needs to take control of this thing before it goes in the toilet completely.
Anyone want to nominate a commish to take control asap?
89
Tree Donor
ID: 337442918 Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:47
i'm off to bed, because my girl is off to bed. i'll check back in in the morning.
1. we voted on a system MONTHS ago, and it passed in a majority vote. that should end that part of the discussion.
2. i made a mistake in allowing and even mentioning a 24-hour window. i should never have done that. the keepers initially posted should be the keepers kept.
OK, I got in to this to begin with for much the same reason BH just commented on.(That's scary) I'll stick around, and will leave it up to everybody else to decide what we are doing and I will live with that. Just let me know when the draft starts.