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Subject: Keeper voting - to change or not to change
Posted by: Tree
- Donor [337442918] Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:51
ok, time is of the essence, again. it seems people are passionate about this in every way. i hate even having to vote on this, because it seems to me it was settled, but whatever.
cut off time is 7 p.m. eastern on tuesday, September 2. if someone hasn't voted by then - tough. if we have a tie, we're screwed.
draft will begin at 8:30 eastern. this will give me enough time to scramble home after walking my dog, and post the draft order, given what we decide on.
please - vote on this in regards to the long-term stability of the league and what you think is fair, not necessarily what might help you - a good example of this is MITH saying we should use Overall Points - which is what i've decided we're now doing in the interest of keeping things standard - when he knew it could cost him some draft spots.
1. Keepers are posted once - your keepers are final. sole exception would be the Raw injury rule which has been explained.
2. there is a 24-hour period for keeper adjustments, after they've been posted once.
let's go. peace.
Tree |
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| 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:01
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Understand that this is no way a knock on Tree or anyone else...
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| 30 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:03
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Whew! Thank god I didn't get blamed for THIS mess!
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| 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:04
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lol
Adam, we do need you to vote.
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| 32 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:24
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Blue Hen, nope, no advantage at all. I didn't "wait" to vote. I honestly don't give a sh*t who anyone keeps. I'm not looking for loopholes either. MITH, well said that everyone shares responsibility for this mess. Wish everyone felt that way. I think things got rushed, and I still see no reason why they have to be. No reason at all. And that right to change thing, as I said earlier, was a crock, regardless of who or how many people put that down. Because I didn't put it, does that mean I couldn't have changed? Because you did, that gives you the right to change? Since when was that something essential? That's what I mean about fly by night decisions being made, and on a holiday weekend no less, possibly causing my delays in "voting" about stuff that doesn't really matter to me.
I hate keeper leagues. Make 'em up as you go.
I don't like the way any of this transpired, plain and simple. I'm entitled to that opinion. I would have quit last night except that ultimately, I decided that I could care less what position I finish in this league. Sure, I tried to win, and actually got squeezed into 5th at the last minute by some nice runs others made. I'd certainly be following wrestling less than I am without this league. I'm doing my best to have fun and be competitive. Nothing wrong with wishing for more structure and less manipulating.
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| 33 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:28
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MIH, in all honesty, I'm not sure of the controversy here...LOL. I've tried to make sense of it all. Here's my thought, let me know which option I've fit into...or if I'm way off the subject (who knows at this point)
Personally, I thought it was pretty clear that keepers had to be posted by a certain time last night (was it 7pm??) and that was it. I think it was important to establish a deadline.
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| 34 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:34
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I blame Mach because everything else is usually his fault.
And I blame AdamH for something because he seems all too happy to be blame-free.
And Mike D is right - it doesn't matter much where you finish, and this league is generally fun.
And I did try to find a loophole, successfully in fact. Give me the 11th pick if you really like -you're the one who will have to live with the guilt (and the whining).
That said, I want to start this draft TONIGHT. So someone make a decision based on the votes in this thread and it will stand.
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| 35 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:35
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Adam H-----the "vote" is in Tree's opening post:
1. Keepers are posted once - your keepers are final. sole exception would be the Raw injury rule which has been explained.
2. there is a 24-hour period for keeper adjustments, after they've been posted once.
Not that significant either way. I voted only because the league wants everyone to make a choice (as opposed to saying I don't care).
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| 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:38
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AdamH
Well, what happened was most or all managers posted their keepers and then some among them felt that they had the right to change the names they posted so long as it was before the deadline. No rule regarding this was actually voted upon.
One side argues that it was not established that you could change your keepers once you post them, even if the deadlne has not passed.
The other side argues that it was never established that once your initial posting of your keepers is set in stone barring injury.
Now, some people did declare the right to change their keepers at the time that they posted them. Tree and Goatlocker have stated that they were misunderstood when they endorsed that right, that they meant that the right to change your keepers is only if one of them should suffer an injury on Raw last night.
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| 37 | Species
Sustainer
ID: 7724916
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:53
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I vote #1.
Forgive the condition I placed on my keepers and whether it started a trend. I just wanted to post them so I wouldn't forget, but wanted the ability to change my mind in case of recent news. I knew I would be picking 12th anyways, so I didn't have any hope of moving up.
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| 38 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 12:59
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Votes for 1:
Tree
Goatlocker
Mist
Mike D
Species
Votes for 2:
Blue Hen
MITH
Farn
Wiggs
Great One
Waithing on AdamH and Kev.
If there is a tie, I propose we ask someone objective and knowledgable of fantasy sports to call it like he sees it. In another thread KKB was fondly mentioned, I think he'd be a fair judge if he has the time to help us.
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| 39 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 13:29
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thanks everyone for taking the time, to vote, discuss, and think rationally. now, phuck off. LOL. kidding.
seriously, glad we're discussing this. it's interesting how split down the middle is, and it has nothing to do with draft position whatsoever.
as best i can tell, roster changes can't happen anymore, and i *think* i have the second pick no matter which way we go. if so, i'm prepared to make my pick ASAP, so whoever is third (i think that's where the confusion begins), can pick as soon as the order gets posted.
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| 40 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:01
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I work tonight guys, so if we can get to my pick before I go, that would be great. I leave in like 4 hours....
I can leave a que with someone too....tree?
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| 41 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:04
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I'm happy to take it, but before you go please vote on this issue kev, we need everyone's votes before we can start the draft.
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| 42 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:07
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I vote #1
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| 43 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:13
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I vote #1
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| 44 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:13
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well, i just found out that one of my girlfriend's classes was cancelled. nice of them to tell them when the showed up, not ahead of time, because many of the classes are filled, and you have to have a certain number of classes to continue to receive financial aid and blah blah blah.
that being said, there's a reasonable chance she'll be online tonight trying to find a class for herself, and that means i won't be. LOL..
so -
1. someone here may have to post the draft order -i think all the necessary info is posted somewhere, it's just a matter of extracting it.
2. in case i can't be here, does someone want my queue? or should i just pick like booger?
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| 45 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:13
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and I'm still taking HHH with my pick
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| 46 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:15
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Tree, I think you should buy a 2nd PC...or get a new girlfriend
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| 47 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:30
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Excellent, we're done. I'm not thrilled with the outcome of the vote, but extatic that we know it represents how most of us want the draft to be handled. Great job everyone in getting through this in plenty of time for the draft.
POST 34 IN THIS THREAD IS THE OFFICIAL DRAFT ORDER
For the left-click impared:
1. Fock Fear (Adam H)
2. SCYTHE (Tree)
3. Rolling Thunder (wiggs)
4. Team Sucka (Farn)
5. Never Leave Your Buddies... (Great One)
6. Controlled Destruction (Kev)
7. Old Italian Disorder (Mist)
8. The Flying Jalapenos (Mith)
9. Eight Henchmen (Goatlocker)
10. It's Not For Everyone (Mike D)
11. Team Bring It (Hen & Mach)
12. Endangered (Species)
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| 48 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:34
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Tree, you can send a que to my hotmail account (linked in post 41) if you want.
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| 49 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:48
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Adam H - ironically, The Girl ordered a laptop for herself that was supposed to arrive before school started - but there was a delay in some parts, so she won't get it until next week. :o)
everyone - thanks. i know this was a very trying issue for everyone. but we made it through, and now onto season two.
best i can tell, we've got about 5 days to do four rounds. let's get cracking...
MITH - can you start a draft thread? you've got the first pick, and i'll email you my pick, but leaving a queue i think is impossible. i will try and check back this evening when the girl is done....
peace,
Tree
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| 50 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 14:50
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No prob, Tree. Draft starts at 8:30, right? I'll have it done by 6:30pm.
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| 51 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:07
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MIH...you've got me down for HHH, right?
Has anyone compiled any sort of "master list" of the available wrestlers and FA's? I know it's not a necessary thing, but it could come in handy if it were done.
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| 52 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:22
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Adam
Well, as far as available wrestlers are concerned, anyone (ANYONE) that isn't already on someone else's roster is available. Hence Hen & Mach's pick of wide receiver Tim Brown. Pick Bill Clinton. Pick Cher. But assuming you want something to help you put together a cheat sheet, post 34 in this thread is a complete list of all keepers. These players are not available in the draft.
Here is a list of everyone who has acquired points from season 1.
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| 53 | Great One
Donor
ID: 48734199
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:29
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going to manually - with a pen and paper - work on my cheat sheet, but definitely wish there was a nice concise list of the FA's - not a mixed list.
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| 54 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:29
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MIH...thanks for the help bro. I'll still go with "The Game" for my first pick, but that link will help later on. I haven't been watching wresting as closely as I used to.
Is Don Muraco available?
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| 55 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:34
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I've got you for HHH. LOL, as far as I know, the big Hawaiian remains a free agent, but I'd really recommend you keep him below Hillbilly Jim in your rankings.
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| 56 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 149272511
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:51
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But on top of Ricky "The Dragon" Steamboat.
Cliff
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| 57 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 17:40
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Well, we may be held up if wiggs is taking a night class, which it appears he is.
I am ready at #4 as soon as the first 3 pick.
I will be here all night for anyone who wants to email me a queue.
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| 58 | Great One
Donor
ID: 48734199
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 17:47
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hey Farn, I am at 5 and one behind you - just curious who you are interested in so I can plan a little bit and be ready to go.
As it is now, I know HHH + Brock won't be there at 5. Just wondering who else might be.
If you happen to see this, shoot me an email if you don't mind letting me know. Just ignore it if you don't want to give away your secret plan or whatever, no biggie.
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| 59 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 19:34
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I've put up with a lot, but this is the worst yet.
This is a crock of utter crap.
I demand to know RIGHT NOW what the system is for season 3 keepers. I plan to tank the season and have crappy keepers, assuming that we use the same system. You are rewarding bad drafters and dumbasses who can't catch on to strategy. You make rules and then change them on a whim - your whim, for your benefit. I wasn't trying to cheat the system. I was merely trying to improve my team through normal means. As it is, I was left with VERY LITTLE held over from season 1. Even if I'd gotten the first pick, my team still would have needed much improvement. I dropped the NUMBER FIVE SCORER IN THE LEAGUE. Because I thought it would help me a little bit. I definitely did nothing to throw off the balance of the league. All you guys that voted for #1 threw off the balance of the league by CHANGING THE RULES TO SUIT YOUR NEEDS. Even if you'd given me the 6th pick, you'd still be able to beat down on my team. Now I have ALMOST NO CHANCE TO DO ANYTHING, no matter how well I draft. That's utterly ridiculous. Next time, why don't you make rules and stick to them. Hell, I don't care if you break them (see Holly, Molly), just don't do it on purpose to screw other people in the league. That's what's going on here and I'm sick of it.
Yes I'm frustrated and yes I'm angry. You people make me sick.
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| 61 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 19:58
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Uh, great. You sure weren't kidding when you said we'd have to live with the whining. I don't know if his post in the draft is some kind of protest on your part or just an honest mistake, but Athletics guy has to remove his out of order draft pick so that we can do this thing. I agree with you that the rules were changed. Like you, it seems more logical to me that it is a greater leap to assume that the initial posting of one's keepers are set in stone even before the deadline passes than it is to assume the posting is not set until the deadline. However, the nature of these things being what it is, we had consult the consensus to decide what to do. There was no other course of action, and for whatever reasons, a majority disagreed with us. Get over it, propose a rule change for Season III and get your boy to delete his post.
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| 62 | Tree
Donor
ID: 47850218
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 20:00
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BH - we voted on the system. it was a very clear majority. this league has worked because of that very feature - we vote on things, and they pass or fail on their own merit - as voted on by the people playing this game.
if you demand to know RIGHT NOW, then the system RIGHT NOW, for next season, is exactly the same as it is now.
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| 63 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 20:51
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It just occurred to me that BH feels like at least 3 of us did last night.
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| 64 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 21:35
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I definitely don't feel outsmarted. I feel bullied...
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| 65 | Tree
Donor
ID: 47850218
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 22:09
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bullied by what? by a majority rule?
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| 66 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 22:22
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I definitely didn't feel outsmarted last night. Loopholes in unclear rules would never make me feel that way. That's the point a few of us tried to make to you. You outsmarted nobody, because no one clearly knew what the F was going on. That's the only crystal clear thing in any of these threads.
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| 67 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 12:04
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It doesn't matter. Would any of you have changed your keepers if you'd been given a chance? Of course not, because none of you had keepers to drop that would have raised your draft pick enough. My reward for sticking with Benjamin through thick and thin was that I didn't have to keep him and could raise my position in the draft. That was really the only card I had, and now you've put me in a very bad position. Forcing me to keep someone who is obviously a very bad keeper. Seriously, I really don't want to play anymore, because I have no chance to win this thing. My only real shot is to draft Edge and TE John and guys who will score nothing this season but might score well TWELVE MONTHS FROM NOW, in an attempt to go 12/12. But then you guys are going to 1. complain that I'm doing that and 2. change the rules and 3. not have a third year.
YES, I AM PISSED OFF RIGHT NOW.
1. We have to keep Shelton Benjamin even though we didn't really have any intention to.
2. We never posted that we reserved the right to change - we assumed 3 other people posting it was solid enough.
3. We are still forced to draft 11th even though we finished 5th, leaving us little chance of winning this coming year or thereafter (unless we tank this year).
4. It's a straight draft, which someone said was a standard with keeper leagues, and even if they did provide evidence, presents a HUGE advantage in a league that is this small, and in a league that has one round of keepers.
5. There's very little chance of us acquiring a player who appears regularly enough on television to spark our interest in this league.
6. Who cares about a majority vote? That doesn't make it right. Let's look at how the vote turned out. With my moves, I passed four people in the draft order, and sure enough, ALL FOUR PEOPLE VOTED TO REVERT THE ORDER. Clearly, those four votes were quite self-interested, and those people were also disappointed that they didn't have a wrestler like Benjamin to drop. So, instead of a mulligan, like golf, they awarded themselves an automatic hole-in-one. OF COURSE all four of those people were going to vote for #1. Because, like Survivor, voting on the rules is now PART OF THE GAME. If you can sway the rules in your favor, power to you! I also have some stuff to say to/about the other 3 who voted for #1, but I'll let that come out later, perhaps.
So I quit. I guess you could say I'm taking my ball and going home, but the absolute best roster I could possibly have is led by Non-PPVers like Benjamin and Steiner, and then if I'm lucky I'll get Rikishi in the 2nd round. I'm not quitting because of you guys, I'm quitting because this league no longer has any chance to ENHANCE MY WATCHING OF WRESTLING.
Obviously, this will probably spark some discussions and rule-changes in an attempt to make up for that somehow, but I don't want it to come to that. And I definitely don't want a pity trip. I don't want to play. Period. Done.
That's all. I doubt Mach really wants to take over my team so perhaps you can screw over some other unsuspecting new owner.
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| 68 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 12:10
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Wow. You won't even stick around long enough to finish the draft?
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| 69 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 38044119
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 12:17
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If my only intention in playing was to win, I would have quit the other night with all the crap that went down. My gosh man, making such a simple game into this life-threatening win at all costs thing?
And the Survivor analogy is lame. Winning a competition like that changes people’s lives, both through fame and through fortune. Species winning the 1st season didn’t get him on any talk shows or into any movie deals that I know of. Jeepers.
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| 70 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 12:29
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Blue hen,
If it's not fun for you then I fully understand your desire to quit. But you know better than to pull this. Joining a league like this means agreeing to certain responsibilities and quitting suddenly at such a crucial point completely undermines the league itself. Hopefully Athletics Guy will stick around and/or you will reconsider and stay with us long enough to find a replacement.
I fully respect that you feel that the league has already been sabatoged, which is a fine reason to quit. But the league is still here, and no matter how you look at it, bailing out now is a pretty shatty thing to do. Not what I would expect from you at all.
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| 71 | AdamH
ID: 60592212
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 12:37
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Blue Hen...isn't the point of this to just to have fun? Winning is cool and all, but that's not my primary objective here...plus, there's a whole YEAR to play, dude...do you have a crystal ball or something?
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| 72 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 13:23
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Blue Hen - you said It doesn't matter. Would any of you have changed your keepers if you'd been given a chance? Of course not, because none of you had keepers to drop that would have raised your draft pick enough.
for what it's worth, there was another player on my team, who i won't mention since i dont believe he's been drafted yet, who i preferred keeping to Mark Jindrak - who i did keep.
but keeping Jindrak instead of Wrestler A, allowed me to vault a couple spots in the draft. I did this initially, instead of trying to be sneaky and post a revised keeper list 30 second before the 7 p.m. deadline.
i'm sorry if you don't like how the cards fell. i wasn't overally fond with losing three of my four top draft picks last year to injuries, but that kind of stuff happens. it's part of playing the game. sometimes the bounce goes your way, sometimes it doesn't.
anyway, you put yourself into a keeper league, and as MITH said, it's a real bush-league thing to quit in the middle of the draft. you're harming not just your reputation, but you're putting the remainder of the people in the league in a state of flux as well.
it's your decision though, and i don't think anyone here as any desire to force you to stay, but damn man, it's a real shame for a trusted fantasy sports player to pull something like this.
hopefully, you'll come around.
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| 73 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 13:50
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I'm still mad, and I probably won't keep playing, but I want to take a bit and gather my thoughts. After all, this league is inherently a good thing, and I want to find a reasonable way to keep it going, despite my own personal feelings.
I won't say more than that right now. I had the "Post Now" screen up for over an hour, debating if I should post it, and honestly, I'm glad I did, because it finally got people to listen. Now it's my turn to listen to the responses. I will post again later.
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| 74 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 13:55
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What do you think about making a first round pick, regardless of what you ultimately decide?
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| 75 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 14:26
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and as long as you're at it, it would be pretty cool if you made second, third, and fourth round picks too. you had a hell of a sleeper draft last year, why not this year too?
and heck, as long as you've got a full roster, it would be pretty cool if you went ahead and played out the season. you're pretty good at this fantasy wrestling thang.
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| 76 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 15:25
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I'm going to do the draft, regardless of whatever. But Mach and I haven't decided if we're going for the future or the present.
And that's why I haven't picked. Mach isn't around to discuss it.
And yes I'm still mad.
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| 77 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 5087314
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 15:31
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well, to be honest, i am too lazy/busy to read Hen's post.
If he is quitting I may be able to help with a replacement if wiggs' cousin is a nogo.
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| 78 | Mike D
Donor
ID: 38044119
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 15:36
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Lol----Farn, at least read Hen’s post 76 (the one before yours).
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| 79 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Wed, Sep 03, 2003, 16:26
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yeah, i read his post before mine; just didn't read that long one.
i was only saying that if he decides to jump ship, which frankly would suck, i could probably get my buddy to hop aboard.
let's hope those 2 reconsider and stick around and help us iron out the rough patches in a new league.
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