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Subject: Week 12 Raw points
Posted by: Mattinglyinthehall
- Sustainer [1629107] Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 10:24
Lawler 2
JR 2 + 30 = 32
Eric Bischoff 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 17
Blonde Roulette Girl 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 11
Brunette Roulette Girl 5 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 11
Shawn Michaels 5 + 2 + 2 + 25 + 10 = 44
Batista 5 + 12 + 10 = 27
Lita 30
Victoria 15
Matt Hardy 5 + 2 + 12 = 19
Christian 5 + 12 = 17
Randy Orton 2 + 30 + 5 = 37
Hurricane 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10
Rosey 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10
Fernando the Midget 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 + 2 = 10
Sgt Slaughter 15
RVD 5 + 15 = 20
Val Venus 2
Lance Storm 2
Coach 2
Flair 2 + 2 + 12 + 10 = 26
Goldberg 2 + 18 + 10 = 30
Bubba Dudley 25
Garrison Cade 25
Triple H 2 + 10 + 2 = 14
Kane 5 + 2 = 7
Terri 2 + 2 + 2 = 6
Booker T 5 + 15 = 20
Mark Henry 2 + 30 = 32
Teddy Long 2 + 5 = 7
Trish 2 + 30 + 2 = 34
Jericho 2 + 2 + 2 + 25 + 10 = 41
Test 25
Steiner 25
Stacy 5
Rico 5
Miss Jackie 15
Lilian Garcia 5 |
| 1 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 10:29
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Amazing Lance and Val were never back on again after their short vignette......I should claim the Blonde Roulette Girl, just so I can "own" her. And I better do it quick, before Great One snags her.
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| 2 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 11:22
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ok, interesting question....do the people in the "Capture the Midget" match get match points, or appearance points for every time they were on screen?
seems to me if we're awarding JR points for winning it, then it's a legit match, and there are no appearance points for each time they were on screen.
If Randy Orton is taking on Goldberg, and they cut to a commercial in the middle of the match, they don't get new points when we get back from the break.
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| 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 11:34
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Hmmm. I guess you're right. Points should stay the same for Fernando the Midget IMO, since he is a person and wasn't a competitor in the match. 17 total points each to Rosey and Hurricane, (15 for the match loss and 2 for the initial vignette when Bischoff spun the wheel). What about Teri? If JR won, then I guess she could have won also and since she was chasing him with Rosey and Helms, she should get 15 also. So like Rosey and Hurricane, change her score to 17 as well.
Amended scores:
Rosey 2 + 15 = 17
Hurricane 2 + 15 = 17
Terri 2 + 15 = 17
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| 4 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 11:44
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I agree. As dumb as it was, Hurricane and Rosey were told by Bischoff that if they didn't do the match they'd be fired. He didn't just give them a task to do, per se. It came up on the wheel and everything.
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| 5 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 11:45
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Maybe this will be the new "24/7" match.
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| 6 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 14:03
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see, unless Terri was part of the match as it was originally stipulated, i'd be hard pressed to count her as part of the match. otherwise, anyone who was in the building could be considered to be "part of the match"....
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| 7 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 14:13
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She became part of the match. I'm not so sure that original stipulations are that much of a consideration. Match stipulations are changed at midpoint and on the fly all the time. JR wasn't in the match as originally stipulated, but he was allowed to win it, regardless. If he gets points for winning it, then she has to get points for being in it and losing.
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| 8 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 14:44
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Good thing they don't spin the wheel very often.
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| 9 | Species
Leader
ID: 569221717
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 15:41
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Where do you suppose the Christian angle is headed? When is this an official turn?
I won't complain -- involving Christian and Hardy in a fued is fine with me!
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| 10 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 3410221616
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 15:46
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why is victoria 15? didn't she win the cage match? shouldn't that be 30?
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| 11 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 15:48
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I doubt there will be a Christian/Hardy feud. I'm guessing that this will play out as a Christian/Y2J conspiracy to somehow 'do wrong' to Lita and Trish. I'm thinking we could see an angle where Jericho really falls for Trish in his effort to trick her into liking him. Perhaps they could develop it into a full turn for him and work it into a Scrooge-type holiday angle.
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| 12 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 15:51
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Sorry, Farn. My mistake.
More Amended Scores:
Victoria 30
Lita 15
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| 13 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 15:54
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Funny, when checking the results to make sure I amended the points correctly for the Lita/Victorai match, I came accross the following at PWScoops:
WWE management was very happy with Christian working as a face teaming with Lita at the weekend house shows. I'm not sure where they are going with the angle just yet, but its safe to say that management really liked him as a face.
Take from it what you will.
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| 14 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 16:02
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I am liking how the WWE is starting to develop angles for the women. Trish, Lita, and Keibler all seem to have some sort of angle going on.
I think the Lita/Christian angle will turn out to be a face move by Christian. He will face Hardy at Armageddon, I think.
Keibler's angle is a little more difficult to figure out. Obviously, she is going to turn. I think she might go with the Dudley's, or in my wildest dreams, Cade/Jindrak.
The Trish/Y2J angle is interesting. I would love MITH's "Scrooge" idea. Fernando the midget could turn into Tiny Tim....
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| 15 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 16:04
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You guys are saying that Stacy is currently a heel and headed toward a face turn? I don't believe Stacy has been a heel since our league started.
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| 16 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 4991311
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 16:17
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I agree mith, I think stacy has always been a face.
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| 17 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 16:20
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And legs.
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| 18 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:01
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How can Stacey be a face when she is with Steiner and Test, both of whom are heels?
I figure if she leaves the tag team, it is a turn...either way you want to look at it.
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| 20 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:24
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Test and Steiner were both faces when they joined her. She currently isn't with them by choice.
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| 21 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:29
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Stacy became Test's "manager" and during that time he played the face roll. He turned heel on her, and battled Steiner (face) for "control" of her. Test won and in a sort of double or nothing wager in the rematch, Steiner put up his own services to try to free Stacy from him. Test won again and both were forced to side with Test. Steiner promptly also turned, and turned on Stacy as well. So now the Steiner/Test feud appears to have quenched, and Stacy remains trapped as their unwilling valet.
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| 22 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:31
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We need to think about just abolishing any turn points.
If Stacey leaves Test and Steiner, how isn't that a turn?
So if Orton leaves Evolution, it isn't a turn? Or if they kick HHH out?
If your with a team, or group, and then you aren't, and it's on bad terms, it's a turn, if you ask me.
It's way to judgemental then.
Christian will get turn points...because he has a thing for Lita?
It's way too grey the way it is being worked. It's black or white, or nothing. If Stacey leaves Test or Steiner, or costs them a match in someway, and leaves, it's a turn.
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| 23 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:36
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Dude, two heels can feud, like Kane and HHH. Two faces can feud, like Benoit and Angle, or Cade and Bubba. Heels and faces can join forces and work together, like Jericho and HBK, or in this case, like Stacy and Test. It has to do with being a babyface or a heel, not with who your specific allegiances are. If Orton breaks from Evolution but remains a heel by continuing to battle against the proinant faces, he is still a heel and hasn't turned. He just isn't in the Evolution camp anymore.
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| 24 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:38
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If your with a team, or group, and then you aren't, and it's on bad terms, it's a turn, if you ask me.
I don't believe we have ever looked at it in those specific terms and as far as I'm concerned it would be a huge mistake to do so.
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| 25 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 17:42
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Wow----Kev------post 18 is off a bit.
("How can Stacey be a face when she is with Steiner and Test, both of whom are heels? I figure if she leaves the tag team, it is a turn...either way you want to look at it.")
Stacy was a face, and still is a face. As MITH said, she is being held against her will by Test and Steiner. The Dudleys or someone else could "save" her and she could go with them. She'd still be a face though.
Face derives from "Babyface" and was shortened in the industry to Face. Face and Heel comes down more to one's actions than who one is with. Sometimes people hang with faces, only to double cross them at every corner, making them really a heel. Just an example.
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| 26 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:12
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I guess I just dont get it.
Stacey was not always with Test and Steiner "against her will", for all I know. Maybe I am incorrect, but Test and Stacey were fine with each other, weren't they?
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| 27 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:18
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Go to rajah, and check out the Aug 5th Raw review...
Here is the part I want you to look at
Scott Steiner vs. Randy Orton
-Steiner comes out with Stacy, followed by Randy Orton. Orton takes a mic and says that he can feel the tension in this arena, because he knows that more people came to see his nipples than Stacy's. Steiner starts by clotheslining Orton into the corner, then choping away. Orton goes for a clothesline, but it doesn't phase Steiner, who starts pounding and pounding on Orton, eventually knocking him out of the ring. On the outside, Orton pushes Stacy into Steiner, then clotheslines the distracted Steiner down. Back in the ring, Orton tries to continue his advantage, but in going for a Lou Thesz Press, instead gets powerslammed by Steiner 1-2-shoulder up. Chops by Steiner, then a clothesline followed with an elbow drop. Steiner 'buckles Orton and hits a Super Belly-Belly. He goes to pin, but Test runs down the ramp. Steiner pulls Test into the ring and beats on him, finally clotheslining him out of the ring. Steiner turns back around and walks right into the RKO 1-2-3!
I do remember Steiner being a face, and fighting Test for Stacey's managerial duties.
It's not like Steiner and Test have been a long standing tag team. Steiner was a face at one point....and at one point, Stacey was a heel with Test.
Maybe I just see things different, but every "turn" can be debated.
Did John Cena "turn" on anyone?
It's something we really need to look at, because any "turn" can now be debated.
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| 28 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:21
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Yes, she and Test were allies during the "Testicle" phase, until Test turned heel on her. It started when Test began tag-teaming with Steiner (Stacy's idea) and he became jealous of any attention that Stacy paid to Steiner. Test would drag her away from the ring by the arm following their matches and a feud ensued between Test and Steiner. Stacy started to valet exclusively for Steiner and Test would regularly run in on his matches. When Steiner challenged him, Test demanded the stip that the winner would also win "the services" of Stacy. Test won. And when Steiner wanted a rematch, Test said that Steiner now had to pu his own services on the line. Test won again. Steiner blamed Stacy for that loss and also blamed her for a loss in a tag-title match the following week and also tuned on Stacy (and turned heel). Steiner turning on Stacy was apparnetly enough to he and Test to put aside their differences and the feud appears to have ended. Before his injury, Stacy had been helping Test's opponents while his back was turned during matches for months. Do you not watch the shows?
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| 29 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:28
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It's not like Steiner and Test have been a long standing tag team. Steiner was a face at one point....and at one point, Stacey was a heel with Test.
Steiner and Test started teaming together months ago. They battled for Stacy at Bad Blood back in June, and they started tag teaming together a month or more before that.
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| 30 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:29
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At no point were Stacy and Test heels together.
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| 31 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:30
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Did John Cena "turn" on anyone?
Not yet. Tho it does seem as tho it will likely happen.
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| 32 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:33
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Then we need to define it better. Because Stacey is "turning" on Steiner and Test.
It's dumb to have something getting points when it is not cut and dry. Turns seem to be very Grey. If Stacey ends up with the Dudley Boys, and that isn't a turn, it makes zero sense. If Stacey costs Steiner and Test a match, and she slaps them in the face or something, and they split, that's a turn. It's not like Bubba/Cade or HBK/Y2J are consistant, week after week partners. If Steven Richards cost Victoria a match, and they split up, and one went on with a face, it would be a turn.
I say we abolish the whole turn thing. It has to be the dumbest thing I have heard of. It's all about if your wrestler turns or not. Cena didn't do much to deserve a turn....yet I had to wait how many weeks to get a Los Guerreo's turn in season 1?
Stupid.
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| 33 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:34
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Well, Stacey at one point, should have recieved a turn to face then, because there was a point where she was fighting Trish, etc...
Just stupid.
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| 34 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:34
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Cena has already recieved turn points IIRC
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| 35 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:35
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Week 9 Cena recieved turn points.
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| 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:39
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Kev, if you think we should abolish turn points, start a thread, state you case and we'll vote on it. I happen to think it's pretty clear. "Turn" simply does not mean what you think it means. It's not "turn" - as in to turn on a friend. The meaning is more idustry exclusive. "Turning face" or "turning heel" is a specific thing that essentially means becoming a "good guy" or becoming a "bad guy". Of course, good guys in wrestling aren't quite bound to the same rules that we traditionally apply, as good-guy-wrestlers will tend to lie, cheat and steal, so to speak. And that's where any confusion comes in, which is why we've always mandated that a turn mus be CLEAR. But the definition for the term that you have been using doesn't apply. If Orton double-crosses HHH but continues acting the heel part and feuding with faces, he's still a heel and has not turned for our purposes.
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| 37 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:45
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Well, Stacey at one point, should have recieved a turn to face then, because there was a point where she was fighting Trish, etc...
Just stupid.
I can confidently state as fact that Stacy hasn't been a heel or fighting Trish since she has teamed with Test. Before that, I suppose it's possible, but I don't remember it.
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| 38 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 18:47
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You're right about Cena. He did turn.
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| 39 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 19:28
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Just to put the Stacy thing into more accurate time perspective, I was apparently wrong when I said Test won at Bad Blood. He actually lost and there was a period that followed where Stacy was Steiner's valet and they were a couple of sorts and Test regularly interfered with their matches. Test got his rematch (or one of them anyhow) at the 8/18 show. The official WWE 8/18 RAW results (Link):Meanwhile, Test faked an knee injury, convincing the referee, the trainer and even Scott Steiner and Stacy Keibler that he needed immediate medical attention. But just when Steiner let down his guard, Test delivered a powerful kick to Big Poppa Pump and pinned him to regain the services of Stacy Keibler. Test had threatened to treat Stacy even worse than last time they were together, and he immediately followed through on that promise, forcing Stacy to dance for Test and his buddies backstage. It was in the next match when Steiner put up his own services in an attempt to rescue Stacy and lost. And then more recently when Steiner followed Test and turned on her as well. Regardless, Stacy hasn't been a heel snce she's been appearing with Test.
All that said, thinking about it more, you may actually have my support if you should decide to push for doing away with turn points. Turns don't happen frequently enough to really matter and they do seem to be more trouble (because of the frequency of disagreements over them) than they are worth. I have to run out before I have to pay a late fee to the video store, but more on this in a few.
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| 40 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 20:04
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I dislike the heel/face turn scoring because the rules are ambiguous, even if I don't agree with Kev on exactly why. I remembered the weekly flack over when Eddie would finally deserve his points. Did Lance Storm get turn points? Should he have? He was a long time heel and then hardly seen after Regal got sick until the match in which he was taunted by Austin for being boring. Now he's a face. At what point did he turn? What about Mark Henry? An obsolete babyface when he got injured. He's back as a heel now a year later. At what point did he turn? Turn points were awarded to Cena somewhat prematurely in my opinion. That's not a knock on how any of those situations were handled, just a point that there are always likely to be disagreements on this. For 10 stupid points that most wrestlers don't get even once per season, is it worth it?
I'm not about to start another scoring change proposal because I think I've already proposed too many changes in this league, and I have some ideas kicking around that I want to propose for next years' Survivor Matches. But if Kev or anyone else thinks its a good idea, I'm in. And if we do vote on it and it turns out that there is broad support in the league for keeping turns involved in the scoring, then perhaps we should think about the possibility of making the points for it more significant and laying out some clearer and more thorough rules and explanations.
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| 41 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 21:24
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kev--------- regarding "Because Stacey is "turning" on Steiner and Test" ----------
A turn is from heel to face or face to heel. It doesn't apply to turning against a partner, or against a manager, etc.. Unless there is more to it. For instance, odds are if someone was aligned with Vinny Mac-----the king heel-----and then turned against Vinny Mac----they'd start being seen as a face, and wrestle and be promoted that way. That's a rare case though.
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| 42 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 21:51
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Should note that there are many Pro Wrestling Glossarys on the Web. A Google search brought up a ton. Listed first was this one. From that site:
Babyface: The "fan favorite" or "good guy". The person who is in a position to be cheered.
Heel: The "bad guy" or "rulebreaker" who the promoter books in the position of being booed.
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| 43 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 21:55
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Also:
Turn: When a wrestler changes from a heel to a face, or from a face to a heel.
From another site-----The Wrestling Observer------comes a Smackdown review of 3/22/01. Check out some of the analysis:
"Analysis/Highlights: Jim Ross interviewed Austin and The Rock concerning their upcoming PPV match. It became pretty obvious by the way they were talking about her they were going to use Debra to screw The Rock. Austin was in full heel mode but got major babyface play from the crowd. Rock was really smooth while Austin stumbled a couple of times. The WWF took anti-Rock signs away from camera view and were quite vocal in choosing Austin over Rock as their babyface. The company is frantic about keeping Rock a strong babyface going in to Wrestlemania where they’ll leverage his babyface heat to help turn Austin heel. Well, that’s the plan anyway. In an effort to keep Rock face, Vince McMahon took the Rock Bottom. They damaged the Benoit/ Angle match for ‘Mania by jobbing them out to Rock in the main. If they just needed two guys to keep Rock babyface why choose these two who have a match many are expecting to be the best at the PPV?"
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| 44 | Tree
Donor
ID: 5910472520
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 22:05
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i'm gonna step in here right now....man, i've missed a lot....first, my opinion.
Stacey is a face. She is a face, stuck with a heel team. her role is that she hates being with them, that she is miserable. As long as Test and Steiner have been heels, she has not supported them.
It's an angle that's been played out countless times in years past.
a turn is obvious - like when Barry Windham turned on Lex Luger (or was it vice-versa) to join the Four Horsemen. If Buh-Buh Ray turns on D-Von to join Evolution, then that's a turn.
If Trish kisses Chris Jericho, or Lita kisses Christian, then that's nothing. no one has turned. yet.
If Matt Hardy (who has played a heel), begins acting nice toward Lita (a face), but then attacks her later in the same show, that's not a turn, nor a double turn - that's a "swerve"....
The WWE makes it easy for us because, for the most part, there are distinct lines between who is a heel, and who is a face.
There are exceptions to this:
1. the turn of the Guerreros was slow and gradual - probably because the WWE writers weren't sure what they wanted to do.
2. Stone Cold acts like a heel, but he's a face, because the fans just love the fact he's anti-authority.
3. The Rock vs. Hogan at Wrestlemania. Because of how the fans reacted, Hogan was turned. i don't think it was an intentional turn, but it happened.
ya know, i just thought of a good example, similiar to the Stacey situation...
when a heel HHH drugged a face Stephanie and they got married, Stephanie (at the time) as still a face. She was paired up with a heel, but her attitude and disdain for her situation made her a face.
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| 45 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Tue, Nov 25, 2003, 22:51
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A criminal psychologist might find it interesting to know that you came up with THAT example, Tree.
LMAO!!!!!!
Ain't this stuff great???
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| 46 | kev
ID: 3155515
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 00:35
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Okay, so why did Cena get turn points? Did his gimmick change? I think Cena is like SCSA. He was liked by the crowd, so they developed him vs "heel" wrestlers.
I just don't get it. I think the scoring in this league needs to be black and white, and any sort of turn is grey. Let's just dump the whole thing, and continue bashing the Cowboys! ;)
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| 47 | wiggs
Donor
ID: 4991311
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 00:41
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kev,
I finally agree with you about something. I dont like the turn rule either, but it does say the turn must be clear. I dont think stacy got turn points from when she was a face to a heel in the first place so I guess we never picked up on it then. I think Cena is considered a turn because he is getting a lot of pop from the fans. That is a good judge about faces or heels, do they cheer or boo? Anyways, I dont like the whole idea of turns either.
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| 48 | mIST
ID: 5351150
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 02:49
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My point of view: Stacy was never a heel, and Cena's turn is quite clear.
You know someone is a face when:
- he smiles to the crowd.
- he beats up Big Show.
- he trash talks Vince McMahon.
- he shake hands with another face.
Stacy has always been a face, and those lucky guys in the front rows know it well :)
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| 49 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 23715270
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 06:27
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Agree with mIST.
At the recently completed Survivor Series, remember when the Heel team was trying to get Cena to wrestle on their side? He finally refused and faught them leading up to the PPV, and wrestled on the Face team with Angle, Benoit, Holly, etc.. Clear turn.
I don't care about turn points for our league. I don't think I ever got Lance Storn turn points. No big deal. But really, it's not THAT tough to distinguish, IMHO.
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| 50 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 217351118
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 07:46
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Funny thing about Cena. In week 10 right before Survivor Series (week 9 was the show in which Cena decided to join team angle), Cena teamed with Benoit to wrestle Big Show and Brock in the main event. After Cena & Benoit won the match and went to shake hands, Cena gave him a surprise FU and then left the ring on his own. WWE wound up editing that part out of the show but it was clear up to that point that hey had not yet decided on exactly what direction they wanted to go with Cena. At this point, it looks like Cena will play the face role for a while, so it probably won't matter for the purposes of the league, but the turn didn't seem clear to me at the time that points were given for it. To be honest, we still haven't seen anything (to my knowledge) that shows his partnership with Angle & Benoit was/is out of anything more than convenience and a way to get at "Team Sasquach", whom he didn't like and didn't want to be a part of. There was no comradery displayed between Cena and anyone from team Angle (or any other faces, for that matter) following the Survivor Series match (week 11). He came out and dissed Vince (something we've seen heels do plenty of times before) and then wrestled against Big Show in a match supposedly set up by Lesner.
I haven't seen last night's spoinlers, but you guys are saying that if he thrashed Benoit and Angle backstage, that he should get points for turning back to a heel? I thought we handled Eddie's turn as we should have, and we let him wrestle several heels and get a bit of babyface pop from the crowd before we gave him heel points. Cena got them much more easily.
Other questionable wrestlers that did or didn't get turn points:
Lance - did he or not? Should he have gotten points? I think so, but when should they have been given out?
Henry - if you come back from a long absence turned from your previuous 'alignment', is it deserving of points?
Dawn Marie - we've seen her only 4 or 5 times in the past few months. Aside from bikini/lingere contests, we did see her challenge Shaniqua twice and also side with Torrie and Nidia against her. It would seen to me that Dawn Marie should have been given turn points weeks ago.
Gail Kim - was she given turn points after she lost the belt and sided with Molly Holly?
Val Venus - He was a heel as Chief Morley before he reverted to his face personna, Val Venus. Did he get points?
Rosey - Was a heel right up until they dropped Jamal. He became 'the sh1t' (and a face) very soon after.
Miss Jackie and Rico - Did they not debut as faces, getting plenty of positive reaction from the crowd after Rico had first reinvented himself?
Which brings up another good poiint, what if a wrestler like Val Venus or Hurricane who is on bother Raw and Heat (or SD and Velocity) commits his/her turn on the lesser show? If Stevie Richards turns face, but it's is primarily done on Heat, does he get points? Does a wrestler get eligable turn points when you don't have him active? What about in a case like Gureereo, where his turn was gradual? Not an issue with a scorer like Eddie but what if he wasn't active on the show in which he was finally given the turn points, but was starting in the previous 5 weeks in which the turn had also been taking place, should the owner not get eligable points for the turn? What if he was active for half of those weeks?
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| 51 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 08:11
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I agree 1 night turns (Hogan at Wrestlemania) most likely would not matter, unless sustained (which Hogan's was in the various weeks to follow).
"Committing" at turn on a lesser show, in my mind, is a non-issue, because in follow up appearances/matches on the shows we use for points the turn will still be active, and then points would be gained. I don't think the actual turn itself matters as much as the follow up to it. Plus, anything on a lesser/non-televised show isn't really part of our league, though I can see why MITH raised the question. A turn is different in concept and practice than a win/loss etc.. This this long discussion (lol).
As in Eddie's case, the league needs to make a decision as a league. I think that was the right call, and the majority of GMs also did, so we as a whole did well there, IMHO.
I could see waiting a bit on Cena versus giving him points now, since there is some confusion about his character's direction even among the WWE creative team. Not a big deal to me.
Kev, love your passion for all of this, which some of us obviously also share.
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| 52 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 08:14
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I don't think there is clarity on Dawn Marie. Rarely used anymore, and tough to distinguish. Don't want to give her turn points every 3 weeks when she is on TV.
I can see giving points to Storm, Rosey, and Venis. Venis was a hated guy as the Chief, and now he's wrestling as a fan favorite exclusively. Even as a "new person"----though really just back to his old persona----Val.
Jackie and Rico----I don't recall them really being faces. Rico was the manager of Gunn/Palumbo and all were heels at that time, as I recall. His new schtick is still heel, as they want to be booed, IMHO.
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| 53 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 08:56
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Wow, funny how man errors I made in post 50. Started off typing as I was eating my cereal and got into it. By the time I looked up (after researching recent Cena appearance to make sure I was being accurate in my post) I realized that I had to decide between a shower and getting to work on time.
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| 54 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 10:03
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i don't think Storm got turn points, i'm unsure about Rosie, and i do think we gave them to venis...
dawn marie is kind of in a nether land. if she starts with a full-time role, it will be easier to tell.
sometimes, it's just hard to tell. Ric Flair is a good example. so are a lot of the Canadian wrestlers.
There's no doubt Flair is currently a heel. But when he wrestles in Greensboro or Charlotte, he gets major babyface pops. it's hard to turn that crowd against him, because they have so much love for him, that they cheer for him.
The Canadians are similiar. even if they're heels, they get cheered like faces in their home country.
but in neither case are there turn points.
here's a Stacey scenario - let's say she's seconding Test and Steiner in a match against the Dudleys.
the whole match she's acting pouty like she doesn't want to be there, and even gets yelled at a few times by Test and Steiner.
At one point, Steiner gets so furious with her, he puts her in the Steiner recliner.
Buh-Buh and D-Von rescue her, but then she kicks both Dudleys in the nutsack, enabling Steiner and Test to win the match and the title belts, and she walks off with the Steiner and Test, celebrating with them.
IMHO, Stacey would THEN get turn points, because her attitude and demeanor changed, she helped the heels beat the faces on purpose, and the fans have gone from chanting "show us your tits" to "she's a crack whore!"
Kev - do you believe Stacey would earn turn points in this situation i've just discussed?
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| 55 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 10:10
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(I do)
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| 56 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 10:11
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(And you sound like an elementary school teacher in that last question. You missed your calling.)
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| 57 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 10:28
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See, I'd want to wait to see how she acts in the next show. It wouldn't be beyond what we've seen from WWE to have her back to acting the face the following week, with an apology and an explanation to the Dudleys that she was just trying to prevent further abuse from Steiner and Test.
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| 58 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 11:15
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(I agree)
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| 59 | Tree
Donor
ID: 599393013
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 11:25
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MITH - solid point. i was talking more of the relative sense in that if she would be awarded points for that particular turn (attacking faces), then she couldn't possible earn points for the current "turn" in question (attacking heels)...
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| 60 | kev
ID: 3155515
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 14:55
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See, my case is I don't think Stacey should get turn points if she just leaves, or gets saved.
The 2 things I see her getting turn points for has her costing Test and Steiner
Scenario #1. We see Test and Steiner in the back, they are about to face Bubba and Devon- they can't find Stacey. Out they go. Then out come Bubba and Devon- with Stacey. Don't you think the pop for Stacey would be huge if she went out with the Dudleys? She really doesnt recieve "pops" with Steiner and Test. She would with the Dudley's. She then proceeds to interfere, and cost Test and Steiner the match. To me, that is turn points.
I think if she joins another tag team, to cost Test and Steiner a match, it should be points. Cena's turn was pretty much the same, and he got points.
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| 61 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 15:02
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Kev, in this sense, to turn does not imply to turn on your friends. It has nothing to do with causing your allies to lose a match or lose out on points. It means to turn from being a face or to turn from being a heel. Stacy is, and has been a babyface. In order for her to get turn points, under any circumstances, she would have to become a heel. The scenerio you laid out would not get her turn points. The one that Tree laid out would indicate a turn, so long as we are sure that it wasn't a mere swerve (meaning that she just goes right back to her previous ways).
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| 62 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 15:07
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I don't think he read my posts. They were kinda long. :-(
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| 63 | kev
ID: 3155515
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 15:17
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Mike D, I do read your posts.
Here is my question then- why did Cena recieve turn points for doing that exact thing. His demeanor didn't change at all.
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| 64 | Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Wed, Nov 26, 2003, 15:26
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Kev, I personally question the idea of giving Cena those turn points so soon, but there are some clues that he has likely turned. And really, it was widely predicted/speculated long before it actually happened. His demeanor did change somewhat.
Formerly, he would take the mike and dis the town they were in. He would dis their sports teams. Now he shows up wearing a jersey of the local sports team. Before, his matches were always against faces. Now he's currently in a battle against multiple heels.
Consider the following from the PWScoops spoilers for tomorrow night's Smackdown:John Cena Vs. A-Train is next...Good Match for getting Cena some babyface time...
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