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0 Subject: Week 2 Raw Points

Posted by: Farn
- Sustainer [451044109] Mon, Apr 05, 2004, 18:44

I just wanted to warn everybody that I will probably tape Raw and then either score it after the NCAA Title Game or score it sometime tomorrow.

If anybody else is planning on watching wrestling instead and wants to score it feel free. I may be able to score it live by using Rajah but no promises.
1Great One@ Work
      ID: 40150137
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 10:36
Gail Kim.
2Tree
      ID: 30357517
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 11:09
man..i almost activated dinsmore this week because i had a gut feeling...but i just wasnt sure he'd be on tv so soon...gotta feel good that my final draft pick is already on Raw...
3Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 11:21
Name Tonight's Total        
           
Al Snow 0        
A-Train 0        
Batista 12 2 5 5  
Chris Benoit 42 30 5 2 5
Chris Jericho 35 30 5    
Chris Nowinski 0        
Christian 32 2 30    
Chuck Palumbo 0        
Edge 5 5      
Eric Bischoff 11 2 2 2 5
Eugene Dinsmore 9 2 2 5  
Gail Kim 15 15      
Garrison Cade 2 2      
Goldberg 0        
Ivory 0        
Jacqueline 0        
Jazz 15 15      
Jerry Lawler 2 2      
Jim Ross 2 2      
John Heidenreich 0        
Johnathan Coachman 5 5      
Johnny Nitro 9 5 2 2  
Josh Matthews 0        
Kane 30 30      
Lance Storm 0        
Lillian Garcia 0        
Lita 30 30      
Mark Henry 0        
Matt Hardy 15 15      
Maven 0        
Mick Foley 14 2 5 2 5
Molly Holly 15 15      
Nidia 15 15      
Randy Orton 12 2 5 5  
Rhyno 15 15      
Ric Flair 12 2 5 5  
Rob Conway 15 15      
Rodney Mack 0        
Rosey 0        
Scott Steiner 0        
Shawn Michaels 12 5 2 5  
Shelton Benjamin 23 5 18    
Stacey Keibler 15 15      
Steven Austin 0        
Steven Richards 0        
Sylvan Grenier 5 5      
Tajiri 15 15      
Test 0        
The Hurricane 0        
The Rock 0        
Tommy Dreamer 0        
Triple H 12 5 2 5  
Trish Stratus 17 15 2    
Val Venis 0        
Victoria 0        
Vince McMahon 0        
William Regal 11 2 2 2 5
           
           
           
Tonight's Total Points 479        
4Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 11:28
Christian and Trish should each get another 5 points for coming out to the ramp for the Y2J/Matt Hardy match. 37 for Christian and 22 for Trish, right?
5Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:03
MITH- i didn't give them points for that because they didn't promo anything or get involved in the match. They stood up at one point but never once affected the match. I would say no points should be awarded for that.
6Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:10
You could give them the same treatment as wrestlers who are 'shown in the back' throughout segments but don't do much.
7wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:12
I agree with farn, we dont give points to flair for coming out during a HHH match, this is the same idea. Besides that, it was before the bell ever rang. Therefore there was no interference during the match
8Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:15
we stopped giving points to guys in the back who do nothing. They have to be involved in the promo somehow. Just standing there no longer garners points.
9Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:31
Farn, that was my point in post 6---why I said to give them the same treatment----versus the same points.
10Species
      Leader
      ID: 7724916
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 12:58
I know I have Christian, but he and Trish were most certainly part of the story/angle involved in the match. Being on TV as part of the storyline deserves something.

Being 'shown in back' doesn't mean jack and there is a tangible difference between the two.

Don't valets (i.e. Stacy) get something for just showing up ringside, whether they interfere or not?
11wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:04
species, no they dont. they actually have to talk or get involved physically with the match. Not just be there.
12Species
      Leader
      ID: 7724916
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:10
If that's the way we've handled it, then cool.
13Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:25
They stood up at one point but never once affected the match.

Actually, they did get involved in the match. At the beginning, they distracted Jericho and Hardy capitalized. Hardy didn't wind up winning, but they most certainly affected the match. Any time I have scored a show or PPV, I always give 5 points to anyone who comes out and has any interaction with whats going on in the ring, whatsoever. When the rules were fi4rst created, that's what was expressed. If some scorers drifted from that, I never did.

species, no they dont. they actually have to talk or get involved physically with the match. Not just be there.

Check posts 33 to 36 here, where all of this was discussed in the past.
Species 33: Regarding interference....things like:

- an attack when the opponent is thrown out of the ring (a single punch/stomp would suffice)
- tripping/pulling at the opponent thrown against the ropes
- chair shots from outside the ring

etc. would all count. They can be done from outside of the ring and be included as a "run in", IMO.

In the Stacy case at Wrestlemania, since Jeff Hardy actually grabbed her, kissed her (lucky mother &$(%^) etc, IMO that is interference.

What about a manager standing on the ring apron distracting the ref so their wrestler can do an illegal move while the ref's distracted? Or distracting the opponent so his wrestler could do a shot from behind?

IMO, if it results in some kind of advantage to the managed wrestler, it probably counts.


Farn 34: Agreed Species, any advantage for their wrestler is interferance.

Mist 35: We can say that he doesn't get points ONLY if he doesn't do nothing at all. It's easier this way :)

Tree 36: even a distraction, ala Stacey showing her butt. i agree.
14Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:28
Perhaps we have sice changed these rules, as these are from the very first incarnation of our scoring system. If this particular issue was officially altered at any point, I'm not aware of it.
15wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:43
i cant find the posts, but we did discuss this last season and said that they actually had to get involved. Technically if it is only to distract someone, all 3 evolution members do that every match, but they never get the points for it unless they get actually physically involved. I will keep looking.
16wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:48
here is a link from last season saying that we were not awarding points for just coming out.

last season results

Also if you read the whole post that MITH linked up last time, it seems that we decided that they must get involved. Atleast that was how i took it.
17wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:49
start with post 21 on miths link.
18Great One@ Work
      ID: 40150137
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:50
Christian and Trish certainly interacted.

In acting class - our teacher said you were part of the scene, when all the people present were aware of each other - being aware of each other.
(that is typed correctly)

Both they and Y2J were aware of each other being aware of each other and they visibily distracted and altered his focus.
19Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:52
aware of eachother is bad. If that was the case every member of the federation would have received points 2 weeks ago when they gathered in locker rooms for the Lottery.

I have only awarded points for someone actually interfering in some way, albeit physically or to distract. My judgement was that they did neither last night. But obviously if others feel differently it can be changed.
20wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 13:57
farn, i am with you man. We didnt award points for any of that stuff last year or evolution, stacy, teddy long just to name a few would have definately scored more.

Stacy was the big example from season one all the way til now, and she was not award points unless he actually got involved.
21Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:08
Also if you read the whole post that MITH linked up last time, it seems that we decided that they must get involved. Atleast that was how i took it.

start with post 21 on miths link.


What are you talking about? No, it was not decided that they must get involved. It was suggested by Species in post 23, "Good question Farn. From my view, I believe actual interference would have to take place. They get the points for the various vignettes, but I think the spirit of getting points for matches assumed actual wrestling/contact.

And then that suggestion was supported by Mist in post 25, Actual interference on the match.

Wiggs,m you clearly expressed disappointment with this suggestion in your post 27; so my flair pick has little value now?

Farn then stepped in and disagreed with the discussion up to that point in post 31, I believe the type of interferance mentioned by Species [post 26] should count for points. Simply standing at ringside should not.

But what about her coming to the ring, grabbing the mic, talking about herself, and then introducing Test? Is that an in-ring promo?


Species, Mist and Tree then all stepped in and agreed that such 'non-contact' interferences do count.

==============================================

And I have no idea what you are claiming with the thread you linked in post 16, Wiggs. A manager or valet must interfere with the match in order to get points. This was decided before Season 1 and never changed. It says clearly in post 9 of the thread you linked - in your words - farn, Stacy got +5 or more every week in season 1. Unless she interferred every single week then you got the points. Wiggs, are you claining that Stacy got physically inviolved in a match every week? WHere did she get those 5 points?

If you guys don't think that Christian and Trish get 5 points for Raw last night, then I think we should put it to a vote, because its seems pretty clear to me that what you are arguing for is a distinct rules change.
22wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:29
post 9 i did disagree, but read post 11. I agreed after finding a different post.
23Great One@ Work
      ID: 40150137
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:31
I vote they got points, because they interfered - whether they physically made contact or not.
24wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:32
All I know is that I was not awarded points for flair, orton and batista being at all HHH's matches all last season, and in fact I wasnt even awarded points when batista was in the ring with evolution unless he actually spoke. Same thing with showing people back stage, unless they actually do something then they do not recieve points.

There was a week, and i cant remember what it was for, but everyone gathered in the locker room before a show and bischoff talked. The only ones that got points out of that were bischoff and Y2J, because they were the only ones that were actually involved.
25wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:35
i wish I had a better memory because I cant remember the details of this either, but someone came out at ppv either at mania or the one before that and just stood on the top of the ramp. We did not award points for that. Another example of not awarding points would be chavo sr. He has been coming out to the ring with chavo jr almost every week, but he is not scoring points almost every week.
26Great One@ Work
      ID: 40150137
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:36
but Y2J was making eye contact directly with them - distracting him - and affecting his match. If Stacy stands on the ring and shakes her ass - or if Trish stands there and just makes eye contact - they are still both interfering equally regardless of whether Y2J found a way to win or not.
27Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:41
If that's the case, I'm sure that I wasn't the one who scored it, because when we made the rules, we clearly said that:

A) For an in-ring vignette you must simply be there.
b) managers and valets don't get points for simply being there. They must interfere with the match.
c) An interference is anything - physical or not - that has any kind of effect on the match.

If you and/or Farn and/or Mist or anyone else who did scoring varied from that, then doing so was contrary to the rules as they were established, so far as I can tell. I don't think such a change is acceptable and would like a vote called if anyone belieeves we should be scoring it differently from what the established rules say.
28Species
      Leader
      ID: 7724916
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:48
I guess a lot of discussion is good discussion.

wiggs - is it me, or is it not being made clear as to what the consensus of "interference" means? Chavo Sr. sitting ringside but not interfering deserves nothing. Same with Ric Flair. So the appearance is not the issue at hand, it's a matter of better defining interference is it not?

From some of the quotes in this thread, the definition of interference seems to have included some action that causes another wrestler to gain an advantage. Remember when Jackie pulled her top up? Advantage gained for Rico! And interference in a match where no physical contact was made. If Flair distracts the referee, allowing HHH to get in a low blow, that's interference as it seemed to have been defined in the quoted posts above despite the fact that Flair didn't lay a hand on the opponent.

I didn't see Raw. But if their presence distracted Y2J enough to allow Hardy an advantage, it seems to qualify, IMO.
29wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:52
all they did was sit on the ramp, the didnt even come to ring side.
30Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:52
Wiggs post 22
[in reference to the thread you linked to in post 16 of this thread] post 9 i did disagree, but read post 11. I agreed after finding a different post.

OK, I think I'm beginning to see the problem. In post 11 of that thread you lnked there, what you linked to in order to make your point was the same original scoring thread that I linked in post 13. Clearly, whatever you thought you found on Tuesday, Jan 13th was a misunderstanding on your part, or more likely, you only read through the beginning of the discussion on how to score these things, and didn't read the portion that begins with post 33 in that original scoring thread. If you had read that portion, then you would have seen that the rules are set pretty clearlyt as I laid them out in post 27 of this thread.
31wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:57
I read the entire post, and I just reread the entire post. I see no where in there where you got you info for post 27. Please link me to the correct thread and the post number.
32Species
      Leader
      ID: 7724916
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:57
wiggs 29 - ok, so they were only on the ramp. Did their presence on the ramp distract Jericho enough to allow Matt Hardy an advantage? Yes or no?

If yes, Trish and Christian deserve interference points. If no, then they don't.
33Species
      Leader
      ID: 7724916
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 14:59
This is a crucial decision. If this had been better understood last year, wiggs would've only won by 990 points instead of 1000.
34Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:00
Sounds like the distraction piece should be the key. If Jericho looked at them, but it had no affect on anything inside the ring----like say pre-match, for example----I say no points. If he looked at them, and Hardy gained an advantage, however slight, via rollup, punch to the back of the head, attacking when Jericho turned around, ETC, I say points.
35Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:04
i just watched the tape again. Jericho turns around before the match to see them setting up their chair. Hardy hits him from behind with one of the weakest forearms/double axhandles you could ever see. The referee then rings the bell to start the match.

Vote based on that.
36wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:04
OK, I am done arguing this thing. take the points. It doesnt really affect me in any way so I dont care.
37wiggs
      Donor
      ID: 4991311
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:05
thats what i thought, it was all before the match.
38Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:08
hmmmm...watching the tape brings up another issue about those 2.

After the match is long over Y2J stands on the apron looking up at them. They then begin to kiss in an attempt to piss him off. Is this considered a promo? If so it would be 5 points. Maybe give them 5 points total and wash our hands of this whole debate?
39Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:12
Hmm, I did think the hit from Hardy was after the bell rang. Did Hardy continue to keep the upper hand after the bell was rung? If so then Hardy started off with an advantage because of a distraction from Trish and Christian. If Y2J took control right away or if there was no established upper-hand in the moments right after the bell was rung, then I don't believe there should be interference points, unless some other incident took place later in the match.
40Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:13
I would say that either way, the kiss is probably worth 5 points if there was no interference in the match, but I don't think points should be given for both.
41Farn
      Sustainer
      ID: 451044109
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:17
after he landed the forearm he maintained control. the forearm can before the bell but he did maintain control afterward for about a minute or two.

I am fine with giving a total of 5 points for the match to those 2 based on the combo of that interferance/kiss.
42Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 217351118
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 15:24
If so Farn, than this was clearly an interference. The kiss took place in the same trip out toward the ring and so it certainly doesn't deserve vignette or promo points, but if Hardy started the match with an advantage because of a distraction by them, then they clearly interfered in the match.
43Mike D
      Sustainer
      ID: 41831612
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 16:02
"after he landed the forearm he maintained control. the forearm came before the bell but he did maintain control afterward for about a minute or two."

LMAO! What a great league!
44Great One@ Work
      ID: 40150137
      Tue, Apr 06, 2004, 16:25
Do I get interference points for both of Gail Kim's distractions? Because... I forgot what was going on - could have been pinned myself - and she didn't say a word. :)
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