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Subject: smackdown points from 4/22
Posted by: wiggs
- [63301420] Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 12:12
these are off rajah, so if anyone has a different total dont be afraid to speak up.
Booker +30 +5 = +35
RVD +15 +5 =+20
Paul Heyman +5
Bubba +5 +10 (heel turn) +25, +10= +50
Devon +5 +10 (heel turn) +25 +10= +50
Rico +25, +25
Haas +25, +25
Scotty +12
Rikishi +12
Miss Jackie +5
Bradshaw +30
El Gran +15
Chavo Jr +25
Chavo Sr +25
Cena +12
Eddie +15, +10= +25 |
| 1 | wiggs
ID: 63301420
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 12:13
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5 more for bradshaw for the interference in the main event.
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| 2 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 12:33
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I'll reflect the Dudley's turn points in the standings, but we should watch to make sure that it was in fact a turn. They have swerved in the fairly recent past.
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| 4 | wiggs
ID: 63301420
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 15:59
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fair enough mith, that was why I posted it the way i did. I didnt see the show, but rajah said something like "we have a heel turn" so I scored it that way.
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| 5 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 16:05
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Well they definitely played the heel roles big-time, and I think the rumor sites have been speculating a Dudley heel turn for a long time now, so I think the points will stick. But I'm always at least a little reserved about turns, and in the Dudley's case, they swerved not long ago so I thought it was worth mentioning.
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| 6 | Great One@ Work
ID: 40150137
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 16:13
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unbiased opinon of this non-dudley owner.
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I would certainly say we have a clear turn.
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| 7 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Mon, Apr 26, 2004, 16:26
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GO, what if the Dudleys come out and trash Heyman for making playing them like fools or somesuch and go back to being babyfaces? I don't believe it's likely, but it wouldn't be the first time.
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| 8 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 14:44
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I guess I'm still confused on the turn thing....isn't Garrison Cade an obvious turn? He went from being a babyface (playing up the crowd, etc), to unexplainably, saving Coach from Tajiri...isn't this a turn?
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| 9 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 14:50
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You have to go back deep into last season to find the last time that Garrison Cade and Mark Jindrak were clear babyfaces. I'll agree thatthey probbaly did deserve some turn points at some point during Season 2 that they apparently didn't get, but I don't think they should be awarded now.
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| 10 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 15:43
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I'm not talking about Jindrak at all, as he hasn't put himself with any clear cut heel. Coach is a clear cut heel. When Cade came out at the PPV, the crowd cheered....he then nailed Tajiri, and the crowd booed....isn't that pretty much what a turn is? He was a face until he punched Tajiri.
Once again, I think we should just abolish any sort of turn points. It's way too judgemental. If something has to be debated, it shouldnt be awarded points one way or another.
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| 11 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 15:54
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Well you're preaching to the choir as far as abolishing turn points is concerned. But simply getting cheered by the crowd does not solidify a wrestler's status as a heel. I already confirmed in this thread that Jindrak and Cade were heels back on March 8, which was Week 27 of Season 2. The problem Kev, is that I don't think Jindrak or Cade have been clear babyfaces since at least as far back as November. If you can show some research that indicates otherwise, I'm all ears.
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| 12 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:00
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What I am trying to say, is Cade made an obvious "different" stance with his character, and it was in a heel manner.
I would say before, at the WORST, you could say Cade was neutral, fighting both heels/face.
If HBK alligned himself with HHH to help him win the title vs Benoit, we would consider that a turn, wouldn't we? How is HBK a face, when he has been fighting Benoit?
Who you fight shouldn't dictate a turn as much as fan reaction/who you help out.
Cade was never alligned with a heel, he now is.
Yet, the Dudleys, turn every 2nd week.
We need to clear this up, because it is becoming a joke. How many times have the Dudley's gotten turn points? Now Cade comes out and is Coach's main man, but he gets nothing for it? That is simply wrong.
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| 13 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:10
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I would say before, at the WORST, you could say Cade was neutral, fighting both heels/face.
Show mw where he was battling heels.
If HBK alligned himself with HHH to help him win the title vs Benoit, we would consider that a turn, wouldn't we? How is HBK a face, when he has been fighting Benoit?
FOr one show or one week? No. That's a swerve. We've gone through all this before. There are no points for swerves.
Cade was never alligned with a heel, he now is.
OK. This is frustrating because it shows that you either didn't read through my research - which I did specifically for you - or you are choosing to disregard it.
Back on March 8th, Cade and Jindrak aligned with La Resistance to wrestle The Dudleys, RVD and Booker T.
Lords of Pain Results 3/8 - A teaser of the Four-Way Tag match at Wrestlemania is the first match of the show. La Résistance paired up with Jindrack and O’Haire against RVD, Booker T and the Dudley Boyz. The heals teased dissention with one another before getting the surprising victory when Conway pinned Booker T.
In that report, they say that it was O'Haire, but they are mistaken. It was actually Garrison Cade.
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| 14 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:11
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So on March 8th, they were faces.
They go to WM, and lose in the fatal 4 way match. Still faces, right?
Jindrak then gets drafted by SD, leaving Cade, well, we didn't know where that left Cade. He wasn't a heel though.
I guess to show what I mean, I think Shelton Benjamin deserves turn points, if he never recieved them.
Cade never was a heel, now he is. Benjamin wasn't a face, now he is....
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| 15 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:12
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Yet, the Dudleys, turn every 2nd week.
No. They swerve.
How many times have the Dudley's gotten turn points?
I don't know, but I don't believe they've been heels since this league started, so I can't think of when they should ever have gooten turn points. If they did, they were wrongly attributed, as far as I am concerned.
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| 16 | kev
ID: 3155515
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:12
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no, it was a "tease", which means, they had 4 teams, and they matched the 2 biggest faces with each other....
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| 17 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:13
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So on March 8th, they were faces.
NO. THey were with La Resistance. They were heels. They have been heels since long before then. They have been heels since then. They are heels now.
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| 18 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:15
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Read post 13 again. They were heels on March 8th.
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| 19 | Farn
Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 18:35
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it should be noted i have never given heel points. ever. so i know anyone who has wrestled on Raw hasn't gotten any unless the group has voted for it. Saves me the trouble of getting involved in an argument. :)
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| 20 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Apr 27, 2004, 19:31
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Rajah reports:
Heat 3/21 The Hurricane & Rosey vs. Jindrak & Cade: Cade and Jindrak tag and cheat while they wear down Rosey
Raw March 8th HERE are YOUR Winners: Mark Jindrak, Garrison Cade & La Resistance
The heels bicker over who gets credit for the win as they make their way up the ramp.
Raw 3/1 The Hurricane & Rosey Vs. Mark Jindrak & Garrison Cade: Hurricane takes him over with a flying headscissors off the whip and goes for a backslide, but Cade comes in illegally and breaks it up as the referee is tied up with Rosey. The young heels continue to beat on Hurricane as Jindrak scores a suplex for a near fall... Our Hero makes the tag finally and Rosey batters the heels with clotheslines.
Heat 2/29 The Hurricane & Rosey vs. Jindrak & Cade: No heel/face indicators described in this match.
So to recap, that's at least 4 consecutive matches where Cade & Jindrak wrestled against faces (in one case actually teaming with another heel group).
You also have Lords of Pain specifically calling them (and La Resistance) heels on 3/8, Rajah describing them cheating during a match against Hurricane & Rosie on 3/21, Rajah (like Lords of pain) referrring to them as heels during the 4 vs 4 match on 3/8 and Rajah both describing them cheating and referring to them as heels during a match against Rosie & Hurricane on 3/1 in which they are also described as cheating.
Can we put this to rest now?
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| 21 | kev
ID: 3155515
Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 00:32
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Then why didnt I get turn points last season? This is like the same arguement about Lita, and so many other turn points. I will start a thread for this, because I am sure almost every turn has been debated by someone, not just me.
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| 22 | Mike D
ID: 43252520
Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 06:35
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Kev, if points should have been given for a turn last season, then an error or oversight took place. There is a lot to remember when scoring and that easily could be missed. The burden can't totally be placed on those who are scoring for us-----and thanks again to those that do it. Some responsibility lies with each member of the league to follow the shows by watching and/or reading and calling things to the league's attention, especially for your own wrestlers. If you don't, things may be missed.
I'm almost sure I missed turn points once or twice for my guys in the first two seasons, but like you, realized it waaaaay late. Too late. I don't always follow things as closely as I "should" in the sense of a competition. Not a big deal to me though, or I'd make sure to be more thorough. One of many things that can be missed in a league like this though.
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| 23 | wiggs
ID: 63301420
Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 11:50
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I dont really care if you take the turn points away. it doesnt concern me 1 way or another. I put it in parenthesis so everyone could see why i added them and if you want to take them away so be it. This was the quote from rajah
Paul E’s music hits, and lo and behold, look who the new GM is. Well, for a night anyway, because Kurt is in the hospital with a broken leg, so Vince told Paul he was the only one he could trust with the Brand for tonight. He starts to go off on a tirade on how awesome smackdown is, and how he is responsible for it. he then starts to go off on RVD about how he used to be somebody in ECW and now is nothing. Cue the Dudley’s, who came out to stand with Rob. Buh Buh says that anything Paul E says can as far as he is concerned be said to them too. Heyman goes off about how they used to be monsters, but now have been tamed. He taunts them for a while longer, till Buh Buh can take it no more and clocks…….RVD!!!! yup, heel turn for the Dudley’s. They beat the bejesus outta RVD for a while, and they look to Paul for approval. Good segment.
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| 24 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 11:56
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wiggs, you did it the way I would have, FWIW. MITH in post # 2 also reflects what I would do.
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