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Subject: Vote on "turn points" Posted by: kev - [3155515] Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 00:43 Alright, since I seem to have the big beef with this, I will bring it up to vote/debate. Should we abolish giving "turn points"? I believe we should. I know this isn't real fantasy sports, and many things in scoring wrestling must be judged. Was there interference? Was that a vignette or not? What points do you get in a elimination match? All these things need to be judged. In most cases though, there isn't a ton of debate to it. Most times, it is just a situation we have nto come across yet. With turns, there is always room for debate. In the current wrestling scope, there are no pure babyfaces, nor any pure heels. There are so many different things that can happen; a month long battle of 2 faces- one tends to get heel heat from crowd. Also, there are lots of swerves. Remember how long Los Guerreo's took to turn? By the time the turn happened, Chavo was already on his way back. There are so many aspects, and so many debates on what is a turn, and what is not. If Bautista screws over Evolution, only to start another heel faction (example- NWO to NWO Wolfpack), is that turn? It's really the only always debatable aspect of our scoring, and we shouldn't have that in a fantasy league based on scoring, not just wins and losses. | |||||||
| 1 | Mike D ID: 43252520 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 06:29 | The Bautista example is a clear answer, and therefore probably not a good example. A turn is from face to heel or heel to face. Turning on your group, but staying heel, would not be a turn in our sense or in general Wrestling's sense. | ||||||
| 2 | Tree ID: 533342620 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 07:12 |
Kev - you're bitter over something that happened last year, and something that was not clearly defined by the WWE, thusly, you're trying to change the rule. if you didn't get points for last year, that was last year. complaining about it this year doesnt do any good - if you'd like, i have no problem adding 5 points (or whatever) to your total of last year. if you'd like, i'll even post an updated standings with those extra points. turns can be slow with a buildup, or turns can happen quickly. the batista example you gave is not a turn, and since cade was essentially a heel and a face, depending on the week he was on TV, it's hard to call him either and say what happened was a turn. keep turn points. period. | ||||||
| 3 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 07:32 |
This came up back in November back in November when Kev felt that Stacy waws playing the heel role while she was the unwilling valet of Test and Steiner. The arguments back then were pretty similar. The Batista example you gave above is not a turn for the precise reason that Mike D gives. That particular issue was also addressed in that thread from November. In post 41, Mike D wrote: kev--------- regarding "Because Stacey is "turning" on Steiner and Test" ----------At this stage we are just rehashing an argument that was thoroughly dealt with 6 months ago. Kev every one of your questions has been answered and issues been addressed and explained time and again. A turn must be clear. The wrestler must shift from a heel to a face or from a face to a heel in order for it to be a turn. Batista trashing Evolution to start a new heel faction is not a turn. It is a heel staying a heel. Cade did not turn because I have shown what appears to be irrefutable proof that he was actually a heel all along. A turn must stick. If a wrestler turns for one show and then goes back to his previous role, it is a swerve, not a turn and therefore gets no points. That said, if you can drum up support for abolishing this rule, I'm right there with you. | ||||||
| 4 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 08:14 | It is so rare, and it's only worth like 5 points, so I'm totally neutral on it. I kind of thought it added something extra to watch for with regard to your own wrestlers, and to maybe even hope or root for. With the disclaimer that I mentioned in the other thread that I seldom look, hope, or root for it anyway. ;) | ||||||
| 5 | j o s h ID: 54322279 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 08:25 |
 | ||||||
| 6 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 08:27 | That's a pretty slick new wrestler there josh......looks like he'll be a "face," based on that smile. I better go make a waiver claim. | ||||||
| 7 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 08:40 | Turns are actually worth 10 points, Mike D. My contention for a while now has been that we should either abolish the rule or make turns worth something more like 25 points, so that its at least worth the trouble. | ||||||
| 8 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 09:05 | My bad. Still not real significant. | ||||||
| 9 | Great One@ Work ID: 40150137 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 09:17 | I would have to vote against it because all it does is cause debate... no clear way to rule. You can't score an opinion. | ||||||
| 10 | Tree Donor ID: 599393013 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 10:39 |
there is a clear way to determine a turn. every single example we've argued about hasn't been a turn, but a swerve, and there's a distinct difference. the debate here has essentially been caused by one person. no disrespect at all Kev, but i really don't think there's much of a debate, and we shouldn't have to rehash this everytime there appears to be a turn. if the Dudleyz (and i stand to gain points from a turn), go back to their face ways tonight, then there never was a turn. but if they pummell RVD, Eddy Guerrero, and other faces, then they've probably turned. wrestling's not as simple as it once was. faces and heels used to be more clearly defined when they turned, but it's still fairly obvious who's a heel and who's a face. Stone Cold is good example. as commish, nearly every week, he'd give people the Stunner. Faces or Heels, it didn't matter. But Austin didn't get turn points based on who he stunned. Let's use an evolution example. It's a six-man match - Batista, Triple H, and Orton vs. Benoit, HBK, and Mick Foley. option 1 - at the end of the match, Foley's in the ring, getting destroyed. Finally, he goes to make the hot tag to HBK, instead clocks Foley, leaps in the ring, and pummels him as Evolution cheers him on. he leaves with Evolution. HBK has turned. Face to Heel. option 2 - at the end of the match, Randy Orton goes to punch Benoit, but he ducks, and Orton accidently nails Triple H. Triple H retaliates, and he and Batista start beating down Orton. Flair runs down, and joins in on the fun. Evolution leave Orton laying in the ring. Later that night, Orton Challenges HHH to a title vs. title match, and after the match, Evolution comes running down and they beat down Orton again, with Benoit and Foley coming to the rescue. Orton has turned. Heel to Face. | ||||||
| 11 | Species Leader ID: 7724916 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 11:45 |
What I enjoy about this league is how we have crafted fantasy points based upon events on TV that are part of the WWE storylines - hence vignettes backstage and in-ring promos can add up to significant points. This is important because WWE writers are crafting these events to build a storyline. Turns are a significant part of the WWE storytelling and IMO are worthy of points in our league. If anything I'd like to see the value increase to 25 points because clear turns happen so infrequently, and they are typically part of an important, evolving storyline. I think the facts support that Jindrak and Cade were not established as faces and thus turn points are not warranted here in Season 3. If someone missed it in a previous season, tough $hit (<---this is a general statement to everyone and not a poke at you, kev). Everyone who scores does the best they can and I have no doubt that everyone is as fair as they can be. I think it's great how any debatable points are noted in the scoring and fairly decided amongst the league. I say keep turn points, if not increase them. We are properly waiting on the Dudley's to make sure it's a clear turn, and that's fair. For anyone to say a Dudley turn isn't significant to a storyline, I think that's bogus. So they turn once a year? Too bad....draft one next time and reap the rewards. | ||||||
| 12 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 11:58 |
"I think it's great how any debatable points are noted in the scoring and fairly decided amongst the league. I do too Species-----which goes along with how unique the league is to begin with. "Crafted," as you say (which makes me think of beer for some reason. Mmmmmm. Beer.) | ||||||
| 13 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 12:28 |
Tally thus far Votes to keep turn points: 2 Tree, Species. Votes to abolish turn points: 3 Kev, MITH, Great One. | ||||||
| 14 | GoatLocker Sustainer ID: 60151121 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 12:30 |
Keep turn points. Also agree to making them 25. Cliff | ||||||
| 15 | Tree Donor ID: 599393013 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 12:46 |
the turn is a crucial part of wrestling. if we're going to get rid of some of the "arbitrary" parts of wrestling, let's go ahead and get rid of interviews, promos, interference, and everything else that is not a definitive pinfall win or loss. absolutely absurd to get rid of turn points, and defies the spirit of what this game is. | ||||||
| 16 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 13:16 |
I agree that it would be a shame to do away with scoring such a crucial part of wrestling, Tree. No one is saying that turns are arbitrary. For me, it's a practicality issue. I happen to think that the tendency of some of these turns to be so drawn out over such a long period of time is what makes it most difficult. People forget about them. I'd bet that half the time that turn points are suggested they aren't warranted, and half the time that turn points are warranted, they aren't awarded. And there are other issues. Take Jericho, for example. His turn (which I'm not sure that I ever got points for - not that I care) took weeks and weeks before it was certain. It started while he and Christian's bet was still on, and iirc he still hadn't clearly turned until about the time that Trish learned about the bet. Now, how should we have scored it if, after Trish broke it off with him because of the bet, he went back to being a heel? Would he get turn points again? Or would his turn (that took 4 weeks before we were finally sure enough it was a turn to score it) get canceled because he quickly turned back the moment it became official? Now, besides all that, we have issues where some managers still don't seem to be able to get a solid grasp of what a turn actually is. We hashed this whole thing out over Stacey Kiebler in a 64-post thread 6 months ago, but all of the same misguided arguments for why she deserved points came up again in this Garrison Cade issue. Even after I put in a considerable amount of work last week to irrevocably show that at no point in this season has Garrison Cade been a face, and thus could not possibly have turned to a heel, we still could not put the issue to rest and had to have another 20 posts and counting on why Cade doesn't deserve turn points. In spite of the best efforts of those of us who are running and keeping the scoring to stay consistant in our applications of rules that are made as clear as they can be, 1) there will always be situations that don't fit in to our rules structure and 2) I think some people just aren't going to get it. | ||||||
| 17 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 13:22 | Goatlocker makes it 3 - 3. No votes from Mike D, Young Gunz, Farn and wiggs. | ||||||
| 18 | Great One@ Work ID: 40150137 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 13:32 |
Maybe we could just start a turn request thread.. You nominate a guy you think made a turn - everyone votes yes or no - no explanation of why you voted yes or no or whatever to clog up an entire freakin' thread with - thats it. Straight democracy. Yay or Nay and you get the points for that situation or not. The only one who can't vote is the guy that has him - making it an odd 9 and will always result in majority decsion. First to 5 votes is the winner. | ||||||
| 19 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 13:40 | I think that idea has some merit, GO. It wouldn't work exactly as you suggested it because a wrestler might look like he has turned in week 6 and the points get requested and are turned down because it isn't clear yet. But by week 9, the consensus might be that he has now turned. We'd have to come up with a set of functional rules to make such a format workable, but on the surface I think its a pretty good idea. | ||||||
| 20 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 13:45 | Actually, reading that again, I don't think it a good idea to not allow arguments. Blind democracy might be a nice way to ensure that these things get settled easily, but we wat our scoring to accurately reflect the results. If I was just concerned with settling the issue quickly, I wouldn't be arguing in the first place. | ||||||
| 21 | kev ID: 3155515 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 14:23 |
et all I clearly vote against boosting points. Every time someone turns, it is asked if people agree with that assesment. That is just not right. But honestly, I don't care enough. I was not clear of mind last night when I wrote all that stuff, because really, I don't care. Give turn points to whomever you want. To me, fan reaction needs to be given more substance. Cade was never really booed when he was with Jindrak, and never a clear cut heel, weather he came out with La Resistance or not. Just like Benjamin is now a face, yet, did he ever get turn points? Nope, because apparently, it has to be clear cut, and I guess beating Triple H isnt clear cut enough, or being with Coach. I'm done with the issue. Don't raise the points. It's a stupid reason to give points anyways in today's wrestling. | ||||||
| 22 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 14:56 |
Geez kev, I was enjoying the banter-----seriously. Shelton should have at some point gotten turn points, as his team was heels, and he is certainly now a face. When was the turn? No idea. Who has him? No idea. Most if not all turns come up in a scoring thread and are discussed. Whether you care or not anymore, you've raised some good points and the league needs to get this ironed out, if it hasn't been. | ||||||
| 23 | wiggs ID: 63301420 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 14:58 |
I know earlier there were discussion of having like a small group of us as like a "board of directors" to make these decisions. I believe that the 3 originally mentioned were Myself, Tree and BH. Since BH is no longer with us, we can include someone else in his place, maybe Mike D, MITH or Farn, or possibly all 3. We wil make it a 5 man board. Does anyone have any ideas about this? Please dont be offended if I didnt include you in this board, I really dont care who does it, I listed them because they seem to be around alot, keeping score and tallying points. | ||||||
| 24 | Mattinglyinthehall Leader ID: 1629107 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 15:03 |
Kev [Cade was] never a clear cut heel, weather he came out with La Resistance or not. I will concede that his status as a heel may have been somewhat ambiguous until he came to SD, but in order for him to have turned heel, he had to be a face first, and you seem to be the only one who thinks he was. To me, fan reaction needs to be given more substance. Frnkly, you're wrong. Until the end of Season 2, Y2J has been an absolute clear heel since before this league started. But he frequently received applause from the crowd because he's great at what he does and many well informed fans respond positively to that. Another good example is Angle, who is pretty much treated the same way by the crowd ("you suck") whether he is face or heel, and we've seen plenty of him as both. Some wrestlers receive positive fan reactions because they are in or near their home town. There could plenty of reasons for fan reaction. I'm quite sure that anyone, face or heel, that beats Shawn Michaels in a title bout with a sharpshooter in Edmonton will receive a hero's ovation every time. Re Benjamin, he is on my squad. I haven't argued for turn points for him but I think you are right. I think I do deserve 10 points for a turn that probably became clear around Week 2 or 3. | ||||||
| 25 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 15:11 | wiggs, I think the league is small enough that a sub-board isn't needed. | ||||||
| 26 | kev ID: 3155515 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 15:18 |
Guys.. I guess it is just frustrating to make good draft moves, get a guy pushed, then not to get turn points when it seems like a clear turn. Granted, I have missed my share of wrestling through the last couple months, but I seem to catch the main ideas. I apologize for my brashness in some of my points. The Cowboys still suck though... ;) | ||||||
| 27 | Mike D Sustainer ID: 41831612 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 16:00 |
LMAOPIMP! As an Eagle fan, I'm in TOTAL agreement! | ||||||
| 28 | Great One@ Work ID: 40150137 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 16:38 |
Cowboys gonna get Collins? That seems like a pretty solid move for them - he is only 31 too, I didn't realize he was so young. Not drafting Stephen Jackson was really dumb though... | ||||||
| 29 | Tree ID: 533342620 Wed, Apr 28, 2004, 20:20 | MITH - you definitely deserve turn points for benjamin. | ||||||
| 30 | blue hen ID: 372102211 Thu, Apr 29, 2004, 19:22 |
Obviously my opinion counts less than anyone in this thread (except Josh), but this is an interesting discussion. I really like the idea of going up to 25 points. That makes it actually mean something. Which it does. If HBK slugs Foley as in the example above, that's a significant WWE event, and worthy of at least as many points as Val Venis gets for beating Nunzio. While we're at it, why not add point values for things that happen regularly in matches? Like if a guy hits his tag team partner or valet by accident, give him 3 bonus points. Or give two bonus points for hitting your finishing move. Or stuff like that... | ||||||
| 31 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Thu, Apr 29, 2004, 20:08 | F-That, hen. Too much work. No internet source provides a blow by blow that thorough. We'd have to appoint official scorers to watch the shows. Imagine the disputes. | ||||||
| 32 | wiggs ID: 63301420 Thu, Apr 29, 2004, 21:04 | Keep and increase the points to 25. | ||||||
| 33 | Farn Sustainer ID: 451044109 Thu, Apr 29, 2004, 21:47 | I am gonna be honest: I stopped reading this thread a while back. So if I need to vote on something give me a cliff notes version and I will do so. Just too many posts for me to catch up now. :) | ||||||
| 34 | Mike D ID: 43252520 Thu, Apr 29, 2004, 22:15 | Goatlocker, Farn is asking for your notes......and MITH, I'll do the "blow by blow" involving the hot women, but that's as far as I go..... | ||||||
| 35 | kev ID: 3155515 Fri, Apr 30, 2004, 03:07 | Just curious. Did Victoria ever get turn points? I do believe she was a heel, who turned face do to fan reaction? Anyone know of this? | ||||||
| 36 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Fri, Apr 30, 2004, 06:30 |
She was definitely a heel way back when. Tough to say exactly when she turned, possibly some time during her feud with Molly which resulted in Molly's head being shaved. I don't know that it had anything to do with fan reaction. I think it was more of a case where WWE knew they were turning Trish heel and they needed to replace her with a top talent face, since Lita would be the only one. They obviously aren't high enough on Gail Kim at this stage to consider her a top talent in the women's division. I know Great One, I know. Farn, just read the topic field at the top of the thread. Should we do away with turn points? Arguments for getting rid of them can be found there and in my post 16. Arguments for keeping them are in Tree's #10 and Species' #11. The tally so far: Votes to keep turn points: 4 Tree, Species, Goatlocker, wiggs. Votes to abolish turn points: 3 Kev, MITH, Great One. | ||||||
| 37 | young gunz ID: 283561414 Fri, Apr 30, 2004, 06:51 | I say keep the turn points. It is a huge part of game. | ||||||
| 38 | Mattinglyinthehall ID: 217351118 Fri, Apr 30, 2004, 06:57 | 5 - 3. I think that probably decides it, since a tie certainly couldn't change a rule. | ||||||
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