Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:00
- Gave Al Snow the curtain jerker points. I guess they could be moved to Kurt Angle. I can't remember how we decided to award those.
- Kurt Angle got 30 points for 2 seperate matches. Not bad for 2 joke matches. Just what we need is wiggs get 60 free points.
- Gave the 2 Tough Enough guys their points since technically it was a match.
- Josh Matthews first 2 is for hosting. The next 2 is for his promo with Teddy Long.
- Gave Miss Jackie and Dawn Marie points as if it was a real match. No winner was ever announced.
2
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:13
I don't know if Kurt should get points for those two matches against the TE contestants. I was going to give him 5 for the appearance and the contestants nothing.
I wouldn't have given Jackie and Dawn points either. I don't think it was diferent from a bikini match, and those are always scored as vignettes.
3
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:15
I will agree that he doesnt earn points for the curtain jerker, but he definately gets points for the matches. The bell rang to start each match and the bell rang to end each match. What is your thinking behind them not counting?
4
Great One
ID: 349181010 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:18
yeah I read that in the spoilers and was pissed about those easy matches - but a match is a match. They rang a bell, had a winner and it was on Smackdown. Fits the criteria however lame it was.
5
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:19
Actually I missed that he didn't give Kurt curtain-jerker points. I think he deserves them.
The diva contestant segments were always treated as vignettes. In fact, they were vignettes where the divas themselves didn't even count until we were down to two.
We agreed to score the TE segments the same way.
6
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:22
the tough enough segment was treated as a vignette, but then there were 2 matches after that. Same as if joe schmo came out and wrestled angle, then the match would count. I also believe in the past there was a match with 2 TE guys wrestling each other and the points were awarded for that.
7
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:22
i gave the jerker points to Snow, who was in the ring. Not sure what the final ruling was on how to score that. If it is the first guy to actually come down the aisle on the air than move those 3 points from Snow to Angle.
If we should score the arm wrestling differently feel free.
8
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:23
Curtan points go to the first person (people) that coe from behind the curtain. Anyone in the ring beforehand is irrelevant. Kurt came out alone. He definitely gets them and no one else.
9
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:27
I was just going to write that if two TE contestants wrestled then I wouldn't give them points, either.
I guess we should put it to a vote. But if we decide that matches between contestants we should lay out when else these contestants can receive points for appearing in the ring or backstage or otherwise live on TV. Remember, we didn't award any points at all for the diva contestants when they beat the WWE Divas at vollyball during Summerslam.
10
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:33
no, but didn't we go back and give the points to Carmella after she won the contest so we had an accurate count?
The only reason I listed them was because Kurt got points for a match. No other real reason than that. I doubt anyone is rushing to pick these guys up at this point.
11
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:38
We went back and gave vignette points to Carmella and Christy for all their previous appearances. - Actually, I don't know if I remembered to give them points for the SS vignette, so I might owe them another 10 each. But that's beside the point. If Two diva search girls had wrestled each other, or Trish, or whoever, I wouldn't have thought to give them points. Its definitely a grey area. Lets just see how the league wants to handle it and we'll know what to do from there if there are other matches.
12
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:47
yeah, i really don't care how its scored. i have no use for these guys. the history of Tough Enough and Diva search people actually doing anything is very little. Maven may be breaking that mold though...
Mith, you still at the mall? Should we change your name to MITM?
13
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:57
WWE.com lists both Kurt Angle matches in their results. I don't think we should make that the standard for when and how we award points because it would likely cause soime contradictions with some of our established rules, which we would then be forced to look into changing. But I do think it helps the argument for Kurt somewhat. So to avoid further issue I'll reluctantly agree that he gets points for the two wins. Hopefully I was alone in my perspective on that issue. Assuming so, 70 points for Kurt.
What about Jackie and Dawn?
14
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:58
Hey Donnie's gonna be a manager in a few years (may he not suck). It'll be a whole new opportunity for him to earn his way into the Hall (may he not suck).
15
Mattinglyinthemall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 22:59
OMG, I just realized what you meant by that!!
16
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 23:06
LOL I just found the culprit. A buddy who was here Friday night must have posted # 26 in this thread.
LOL, dumazz Mets fan. I've been posting with that moniker from my home computer since Friday!
17
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 23:09
haha.
you might to reset your patron status too.
18
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 23:37
ROFL! I was wondering where the joke originated and noticed it a earlier. Hilarious! Props to your buddy! hahahahaha
19
Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Thu, Nov 04, 2004, 23:40
man, i dont think Angle should get match points AT ALL.
we gotta draw a line somewhere.
20
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 06:16
Tree I was afraid someone would agree with me. If you feel strongly enough about it I think you should call a vote.
Also, we need for a least a couple of people to chime in on Dawn and Jackie.
21
Tree Donor
ID: 599393013 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 06:54
i'm heading out of town in like 10 minutes. but yea, i'm gonna call for a vote on this.
simply put, they were part of a larger vignette.
22
Great One
ID: 4103156 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 07:38
its just another opinion - but I bet my WWE fantasy game scores them as two matches. Angle got 30 points somehow.
RAW/Smackdown Appearance 3 RAW/Smackdown Match 5 RAW/Smackdown Win 7 All Shows Finishing Move 5
What if we count it as one match - kind of like a gauntlet type match?
23
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 08:31
No, it definitely wasn't a gauntlet and I don't think it should be a comprimise. Either it should be two matches or a vignette. We're setting a precident with this decision. If we agree to comprimise and then there is another match between TE contestants under different circumstances, looking back to this decision and finding a compromise won't help us decide how to deal with that issue.
Like I said its a grey area and just a matter of perception of how what took pace fits in with the system we've established.
I was reluctantly willing to back off when it looked like I was the only one who felt this way, but now that tree has spoke up I think we should get a majority decision. In the interest of settling it quickly, if there's a 5-5 split I'll concede my vote.
What about Jackie and Dawn?
24
wiggs@school
ID: 58103649 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 10:06
It seems pretty cut and dry to me. We have always gone by if the bell rings to start a match and the bell rings to end a match it is a match.
Also I am not sure where we ever decided that TE matches do not count. I might have just missed something, so if someone can point that out it would be great.
Obviously my vote is for allowing the points for 2 matches. I would also ask that people vote for how they really feel not because I am leading and it gives me cheap points. I would feel the same way if this happened with one of MITHs guys, even though he is closing the lead on me.
I think I know how Farn feels by how he scored it, and GO posted in #4 that he feels Angle should get the points.
As far as Dawn and Jackie, I missed that segment so a quick run down would help me to make a decision.
25
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 10:39
Great One seems to side with you guys, Wiggs. As far as I know we never specifically decided that TE contestant matches don't count. But I believe we did decide that their segments would be treated specifically as vignettes. I think the thinking is that these segments are a wasted and useless part of the show that don't amount into anything. If any two the diva search contestants had a match, I would have argued the same way.
Hopefully no one will vote based on who is in the lead, as that shouldn't have anything to do with the issue.
Unlike you, I do see this as a grey area issue rather than a cut and dry one (one way or the other), but like I said, its just a difference of perception. If I was sure it would just be a meaningless one-time deal and the only thing hanging on it was 60 points for you, I'd say just give Angle the points rather than make an issue of it. But since we could potentially be setting a precident that we will have to refer to in the future, I think we should handle it the way a league majority sees best.
At this point it's just Tree and myself who have expressed an issue. Assuming GO is with you guys, 4 of the remaining 5 would have to agree with us in order for Kurt to not receive points for those two matches. My only objective is to see that this gets done the way the league feels is best.
Re Dawn and Jackie, they came out to arm-wrestle and were given no-contest points when they started brawling instead of getting a winner. My opinion is that an arm-wrestling contest (be it a win, loss or no-contest) is a vignette and not a match.
26
Great One@Work
ID: 59946299 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 10:44
yeah post 4 was my vote.
27
Mike D Sustainer
ID: 41831612 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 10:54
I kind of agree with wiggs re: the "if the bell rings" theory. I also agree with MITH on the arm wrestling contest. Not a "match."
28
kev
ID: 3155515 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 13:58
It is a real grey issue. To me, it is very similar to the "Benoit 2 PPV matches" thing. You can look at the issue in 2 different ways. Nothing is ever cut and dry in wrestling.
However, I have to say, I think Angle does deserve to get the points. He just happened to be the lucky wrestler that got to beat up Tough Enough wrestlers this week.
Next week, if Simon Dean starts to challenge fatties from the audience to matches, and wins 6 in 10 minutes, he would be deserving of these points too.
29
Species Leader
ID: 07724916 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 14:14
I think the bell ringing winner creates a match - whether it's Tough Enough dudes or as kev said Simon Dean beating up audience members -- just because they're not on the active WWE roster it shouldn't exclude them from being counted on as official matches.
30
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 2824911 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 16:03
That should settle it. 70 points for Angle.
We've still only had one person comment on Dawn Marie and Miss Jackie.
31
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 16:04
I don't care which way the divas goes. If we have a policy of only making their skits a vignette than so be it.
I hate to say it but did a bell ring for that? I know there was a ref. If a bell rang we might have to revert to the ruling we used for Angle.
32
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 17:52
i agree with farn on the dawn/jackie thing too. if the bell rang then I would count it as a match.
33
Bond. James Bond
ID: 171024318 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 18:22
I would state my opinion but since I wasn't able to see the show, I'll have to acquiesce to ya'll's opinion.
34
Farn Sustainer
ID: 451044109 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 18:45
Bond, just go by what you read here.
The Tough Enough guys came to the ring and Angle came down and yelled at them for a promo. Then they did squat thrusts. The winner won a match with Kurt Angle, who pinned him in about 30 seconds. A bell rang to signify a match. Another guy volunteered to wrestle too. Another bell, another pin.
Do you think he should get points for a match?
The divas arm wrestled. I can't recall whether there was a bell. There was no winner. It was interupted by a headbutt by Dawn Marie to Miss Jackie.
Do you think it should be considered a match and thus be a no contest? Or should it be a promo for just 5 points? Would a bell affect your decision?
35
Mike D Sustainer
ID: 041831612 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 21:11
I don't think there was a bell for the Divas. There was a ref. It was arm wrestling. No pins, submissions, etc.. A stunt thing. No match, IMHO.
36
Bond, James Bond
ID: 171024318 Fri, Nov 05, 2004, 21:43
It's cheap, it's tawdry and it's a weak way to get over but yes, IMHO, Angle's victories are legit provided that there was a referee, a starting bell and a finishing bell. The way I look at it is this: Just suppose one of those Tough Enough guys actually pinned Angle. Don't you think their victory should count? I do. So, if their win would count, so should their loss.
I hate it when WWE schedules matches like this but we know they have in the past, they do it now and they will do it in the future.
Furthermore, I believe that a match should only be considered as legitimate when all three of the above scenerios occur. Otherwise, as in the case of Dawn Marie and Miss Jackie, it's just a glorified stunt match and should only be credited with vignette points not match points.
37
kev
ID: 3155515 Sat, Nov 06, 2004, 01:33
Didnt see the Diva question...
no match points for that, IMO
38
GoatLocker Sustainer
ID: 060151121 Sat, Nov 06, 2004, 13:24
Vignette points for the Divas.
If the bell rings and a winner is named....I would have to say it is a match...
Real, real cheap points for Angle, but think we need to call it a match.
Sorry I didn't chime in earlier.
Cliff
39
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554 Sat, Nov 06, 2004, 13:31
OK 70 for Angle and I don't think anyone has posted that they though there was a bell for Jackie & Dawn Marie, so they'll get vignette points.
40
wiggs Donor
ID: 04991311 Sat, Nov 06, 2004, 13:37
sounds good mith
41
Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 4494554 Sat, Nov 06, 2004, 14:11
Also, I'm taking away the 3 Curtain points from Al Snow.