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Subject: Keeper League
Posted by: beebop
- [587143016] Wed, Sep 04, 2002, 23:30
So does anyone know of a keeper league i could join??? Or maybe we could start one up here.
Anyone have an interest??? |
| 1 | YOUNGBUCK
ID: 331381323
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 01:26
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I'll play if you create one.
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| 2 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 01:47
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Id play one.
Although a bit of explanation would be needed. As I've never played a keeper league before.
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| 3 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 02:00
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Well, the two ways i know of a keeper league is you can only keep a certain number of players each year, and a limit of times you can keep one player. Or you can sign them to contracts. A simple way is if you sign them for 4 years, it is $4 each year. Or you could do it like 6-4-2-4 as it equals to 16 (4yrs*$4). And there would be a limit of $.
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| 4 | kiwi2
ID: 24451189
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 02:37
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am interested
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| 5 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 03:38
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Sounds fun.
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| 6 | talonted
ID: 317202817
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 05:53
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i'd be interested also and i have a few friends who would join.
keeper leagues can be run several ways, just like what beebop suggested.
METHOD A (without a salary cap): we could just draft and play thru a season with trades et al, and at the end of the season, declare a set number of players as "keepers" for the following season...everyone remaining goes back into a re-draft...
METHOD B (auction method with a salary cap): set an imaginary salary cap of $26. At the draft, the person who is picking NOMINATES a player to be "bid on", with an openning bid. For example:
-1st pick overall, i nominate Shaq with an openning bid of $10
-everyone gets one turn to bid (minimum 10cent increments)OR pass on the nominated player, once the bidding process gets back to the nominee, he has the last chance to "top any one's bids"
-the highest bid gets that player
-then start with the next pick.. and so on, until all rosters are full....
NOTE: this method takes a fair amount of time if run on a msg board, b/c of the time it takes for picks/bids/passes etc... it is best run on a private chat room (Yahoo) or messenger service (MSN/ICQ) where all the owners/GM's can get together for a few hours....
at the end of the season, owners can decide how many players they wanna "keep" for the following season, but with a "re-sign penalty" (ie. 50cents). for example:
if i had SHAQ for $13.oo and he is the only player i want to re-sign for the following season (i will drop everyone else), he will now cost me $13.50....as a result (on a $26 salary cap, i will only have $12.50 the following year at draft day to fill out my remaining roster spots).... to re-sign Shaq the FOLLOWING SEASON, will then cost me an additional .50cents, so he will be worth $14... et cetra et cetra....
Just my 2cents on the keeper methods i have played with in the past...
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| 7 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 13:36
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I'm interested.
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| 8 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 13:45
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I vote for method A BTW...
And is this going to be a Roto league? Head to Head?
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| 9 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 16:11
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I havent decided yet.....just trying to get some interest first before i decide on anything specifically. Personally, i like A aswell.
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| 10 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 16:14
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count me in if there's room
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| 11 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 16:24
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Yea, that makes it 6 ppl....i am hoping for about 10-12 ppl.
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| 12 | YOUNGBUCK
ID: 485529
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 16:28
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here is a list of people that are interested.
beebop
YOUNGBUCK
memphis fan
kiwi2
talonted
blooki
MNG
thats seven people. I think that 10 is enough.
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| 13 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 17:59
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Im going to think more at school on how to set it up, but at the moment, im thinking of just using points, rebds, assts, stls, blks, fg%, ft% and either 3pm or 3pt%. Also, if we can get the 10 ppl soon, maybe start drafting in the next couple days (if everyone is available) or to give some ppl time, maybe wait til yahoo opens and have a live draft???
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| 14 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 18:26
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u know it
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| 15 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 20:41
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Yo, an auction would be pretty sick, but we gotta All be there, and Head to Head would be best.
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| 16 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Thu, Sep 05, 2002, 21:28
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hey, count me in!!!
my italian boot is just ready to kick some stars&stripes' ass.....oh, and australian too....;-)
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| 17 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 02:02
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I was hoping for not having an auction draft. I like points more than head to head, but if the majority like h2h, we'll do that.
I was thinking 10 players, and 2-4 bench players.
1PG, 1SG, 1G, 1SF, 1PF, 1F, 2C, 2UTIL.
Though none of this is concrete, so if you guys have any other ideas.....
We need just one more player!!!!
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| 18 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 03:15
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Okay, doug has said he is interested.
At the moment i am looking at a roto league with 9 categories.
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Steals
Blocks
FG%
FT%
3PM
TO's
Also with an 82 game limit at each roster spot.
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| 19 | beebop
ID: 587143016
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 03:50
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Seeing as some players play more than one position, how about we draft 4G, 4F, 2C and 4 bench, 1 IL. So everyone would draft 14 players.
At the moment, im not 100% sure of the players positions that yahoo are using for fantasy. Might be too early to assume positions, like for carter (who isnt even listed on yahoo???)
otherwise maybe 2PG, 2SG, 2SF, 2PF, 2C, 4 bench, 1 IL
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| 20 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 13:11
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I think if we use "specific" positions, namely PG/SG/PF/SF, then we need to either (a) have a definite list of which players are which positions, or (b) modify the lineup so there are at least 1 or 2 "flexible" slots. namely G/F/U. The reason is that with specific-only roster spots, then if I draft Kobe Bryant figuring he sees a lot of time at SF and then draft 2 more SGs with my next 2 picks, then I get screwed if it is later determined that Kobe is only allowed to play in the SG spot, because I now have to bench a stude every week (or trade, of course).
I do like specific positions though, and we do all have a reasonable idea of who can play where, so I'd go with either (a) SG/PG/G/SF/ PF/F/C/C/U/U or (b) SG/PG/G/G/SF/PF/F/G/C/ C. Basically the only difference here is whether you are allowed to put a C in as a utility player. With (a), if you know your opponent is much stronger in points and assists than you are, you could plug in an extra C at your utility spot to boost your boards and blocks, to ensure that you at least get a couple of wins for that week. This seems kinda cool at first, strategic lineups, but on the other hand if one team dominates in a couple categories and the other team dominates in a couple categories, the weekly matchups won't be that interesting. With (b) each team's roster will be more balanced, hopefully leading to each category being more competitive each week. Personally, I would prefer (b) to (a).
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| 21 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:02
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My personal preferences:
h2h
PG
SG
G
SF
PF
F
C
C
U
U
B
B
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| 22 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:10
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To distill the last 3 posts, here are 3 options for starting roster (bench depth is a secondary issue we can deal with seperately):
(a) PG/SG/G / SF/PF/F / C/C / U/U
(b) PG/SG/G/G / SF/PF/F/F / C/C
(c) PG/PG / SG/SG / SF/SF / PF/PF / C/C
NG votes (a), I vote (b)... others?
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| 23 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:12
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Also, as for scoring system we have 2 votes h2h (beetski and NG) and 2 votes points (beebop and myself)... others?
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| 24 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:15
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By the way, I assume points is still roto-based points... 10 points if you are first in a category, 1 point if you are last in a category... that's what I meant and I assume beebop did too.
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| 25 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:21
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hmm suggestion, Wouldn't it be weird if we did topics a lil outta the norm??? maybe fun
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| 26 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:32
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Games Played;
Games Started;
Minutes Played;
Field Goals Attempted;
Field Goals Made;
Field Goal Percentage (Rotisserie, Head-to-Head Only);
Free Throws Attempted;
Free Throws Made;
Free Throw Percentage (Rotisserie, Head-to-Head Only);
3-point Shots Attempted;
3-point Shots Made;
3-point Percentage (Rotisserie, Head-to-Head Only);
Points Scored;
Offensive Rebounds;
Defensive Rebounds;
Total Rebounds;
Assists;
Steals;
Blocked Shots;
Turnovers;
Assist/Turnover Ratio (Rotisserie, Head-to-Head Only);
Personal Fouls;
Times Fouled Out;
Technical Fouls;
Ejections;
Flagrant Fouls
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| 27 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 15:47
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All of those stats.. wow.
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| 28 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 16:04
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we can pick and choose, itd be pretty phat rather than a standard league
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| 29 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 16:07
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you know what else could be call, we draft, lets say 10 people in league 10 starting spots pg sg g sf pf f cc ut ut 2 bench so 12 rds, 10 ppl,and after the draft each person picks 1 stat catergory. so whoever has 10th pick picks a catergory, then 9th does, that way u dont know how to base ur draft and u really gotta be smooth
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| 30 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 16:29
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beetski most likely people would choose the category that would most benefit there team.
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| 31 | beebop
ID: 4885164
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 16:32
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I also like the specific player positions. I think we'd have to decide on the categories first before we draft, as this can change players worth in a league.
If all of you want h2h over roto, thats fine with me.
RE:22, i like B aswell.
I think we need to get everything set in the next day or so.
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| 32 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 18:49
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It's an interesting idea beetski (using some non-traditional stats)... but is it better or worse to have more field goal attempts, for example? And generally, if someone has more games or minutes, they're going to score more points/assists/steals/etc. so you're in essence double-counting... I realize it isn't a straight correlation, but still, I don't see the appeal of those stats. However, I DO think a few of the non-traditional categories that you mentioned are more interesting, such as A/TO ratio, offensive boards, and the foul stats. Which stats we should use also depends on the system we are going with... I think there's a consensus on using roto rather than fantasy points, but we still need to decide if it is full-season roto or h2h roto.
I also think the idea of choosing 10 stats after the draft (everyone picks one) is an interesting one, and if I were playing in a bunch of hoops leagues I would go for something experimental, but this is my only hoops league so personally I'd have to vote against that approach.
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| 33 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 19:30
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Assuming weeks run Tue-Mon, there are 25 weeks in the NBA regular season, but note that week 25 is only 2 days long. Also, week 15 is All-Star week with only 3 days of games (and only 3 games on day 3). If we go h2h, I would propose eliminating week 15 from the schedule altogether.
Now, if you face every manager twice, that's 18 matchups (carrying through week 19 b/c we skip week 15). Then, the 4 teams with the best records make the playoffs. A playoff matchup could then run for 2 consecutive weeks, with lineup changes allowed on the middle tuesday. Week 20/21 is the semi- finals, and the finals would be week 22/23 (or even add week 24 to make the finals 3 weeks).
In case of 2 teams with a tied regular season record, they could go h2h in week 20 and push the playoffs back to weeks 21/22 and 23/24.
We could also hold consolation playoffs for the bottom 6 teams. I've seen this done as a way of determining draft picks the following year. Teams 9 and 10 get a bye, and face the winners of the 5/8 and 6/7 matchups. Winner of this consolation tourney gets 1st pick, runner up 2nd, etc. This way the last place teams is guaranteed at least pick #3, for example, but it also provides an incentive to keep teams to competitive through the end of the season.
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| 34 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 19:32
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beebop
YOUNGBUCK
memphis fan
kiwi2
talonted
blooki
MNG
Irri
Beetski
Doug
6 of the 10 guys are in at least one other league so far(majority) maybe the experimental things would be kinda cool.
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| 35 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 21:36
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OK, well, as a compromise what if we take the traditiontal stats (pts,ast,rb,stl,blk,3Ps,TOs,fg%,ft%) and tweak them a little bit (assuming the league software will handle it)? For example, we could make an offensive board worth an extra 0.5 in the rebound total (3 def boards = 2 off boards). We could also add a foul category... etiher just straight PFs, or maybe 1 pt per PF, 2 pts per technical/flagrant, and an extra 2 pts for fouling out or getting ejected. We could also possibly use A/TO ratio instead of just TOs.
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| 36 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 21:42
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what i posted is the only stats Yahoo offers
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| 37 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 22:01
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And thus the only ones I used in my suggestion...
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| 38 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 22:02
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Or are you saying that yahoo doesn't let you weight their stats?
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| 41 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 22:22
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TRUE
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| 42 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 22:44
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i think yahoo let you weight their stats.
i've just done it in hour nfl keepers league guys, and i can't see a reason for the nba to be different.
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| 43 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 23:29
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Yahoo does.
I remember last year being in a division that was weighed like SW/TSN. Or at least really close. If thats what you ment :)
1.5/board 2/assist etc.
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| 44 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Fri, Sep 06, 2002, 23:47
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Well, that would be fantasy point style, what I meant was keeping it roto style but, for example, the rebounds category wouldn't just be offensive rebounds + defensive rebounds (i.e., total rebounds), but would instead be defensive rebounds + 1.5 offensive rebounds. Basically we would be creating a new category based on a formula using 2 or more other categories, but then still scoring that category roto style along with all the others. This is where I'm not sure if the software would allow us to create a catagory like that. I'm just trying to come up with something for beetski's sake... I'm fine with keeping it simple. I just want to get the categories decided before the draft as all.
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| 46 | beebop
ID: 4885164
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 05:03
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Revised Categories:
Pts
Ass
Stls
Blcks
ORbds
DRbds
3PM
TO
a/to
FG%
FT%
PF
T's
FO
Now, i think we should have a vote on either h2h or total season.
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| 47 | beebop
ID: 4885164
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 05:16
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Disregard FO's and T's.
Im still undecided on h2h or total. Im pleased either way.
PG/SG/G/G/SF/PF/F/F/C/C/B/B/B/IL/IL
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| 48 | beebop
ID: 4885164
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 05:26
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Just a message to make sure everyone is still going to compete and leave their email/screen name.
Mine is najbc@hotmail.com AIM name is WGRacing2002
Kiwi2 is smackie2@hotmail.com and kiwiLP120
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| 49 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 05:45
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e: dijital@pacbell.net
AOL IM: SiriusAdventures
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| 50 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 07:49
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buttermilkfm@hotmail.com
buttermilkfm
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| 51 | YOUNGBUCK
ID: 485529
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 09:43
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youngbuck206@yahoo.com
I dont have any kind of Instand Messenger.
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| 52 | talonted
ID: 317202817
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 10:54
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isugp@hotmail.com
Yahoo messenger and MSN messenger
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| 53 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 13:18
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email/wyoung80@bellsouth.net
aim/iizwill
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| 54 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 15:27
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AOL: Mustangs56060
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| 55 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 16:13
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So....does everyone like the scoring categories and the lineup setup???
Also, which would you all prefer, h2h or total season???
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| 56 | clach
ID: 196491615
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 16:44
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I'm not in this league but I'll add my AIM for guys in draft league ClaudioHome
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| 57 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 20:38
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Where we stand now...
12 scoring categories
PT, ORB, DRB, A, TO, A/TO, ST, BLK, 3PM, FG%, FT%, PF
13-man roster (10 starters, 3 Bench, 2 IL)
PG/SG/G/G / SF/PF/F/F / C/C / B/B/B / IL/IL
This allows for 1 bench backup each for G, F, and C (or whatever combo you prefer)
Scoring system votes | Full-Season Roto | H2H Roto | No Vote Yet | | beebop | Mr. NG | YOUNGBUCK | | Doug | beetski | lazio | | Memphis Fan | talonted | | | kiwi2 | | | blooki |
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| 58 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:34
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My opinion for stat caterories
Pts
O rebs
sTEALs
A/TO
FG%
FT%
bLKS
3ptm
PF
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| 59 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:37
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I think if we are going to use Oreb, we also need to use either total or defensive aswell....
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| 60 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:40
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why, D-REBS are so easy to get, u gotta battle for Orebs, they dont just POP out to u, id be interested in seeing mr 3d jason kidds O rebs vs d rebs
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| 61 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:42
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J kidd 1.6 ORPG 5.7 DRPG
LOL. Big Boys get the O rebs, the MEN
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| 62 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 21:43
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We could use Tsnp.
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| 63 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 22:44
|
I agree O boards are tougher to come by, but it's not like D boards are worthless. They don't just "POP out to u". You have to box out, have good instincts, etc. And it's not just size either... look at Rodman... he wasn't huge. As an example, Nowitzki had 1.6 OBPG and 8.4 DBPG last year. Jason Richardson had 1.6 OBPG and 2.7 DBPG. I think it would be silly to say these two guys are equal caliber rebounders (because their offensive boards stats are equal). If anything, it says to me that Jefferson is a lazy ass on the defensive end, and should be penalized accordingly in some statistical category.
If instead of using DRBPG we used TRBPG (as well as ORBPG), then offensive boards would be counted twice, making them more valuable than defensive boards, without getting rid of the defensive boards stat altogether.
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| 64 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 23:02
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nice idea there
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| 65 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 23:40
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Great idea Doug...i think we'll be using ORB and TRB.
Ill set up a draft order to try and get this started....
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| 66 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sat, Sep 07, 2002, 23:46
|
Update...
12 scoring categories
PT, ORB, TRB, A, TO, A/TO, ST, BLK, 3PM, FG%, FT%, PF
beetski also suggested eliminating A and TO... but I think if we have 2 RB-related stats (ORB and TRB), then we need 2 AST-related stats (AST and A/TO)... TO is a possible stat to elimante, but this minimizes the penalty for giving up the ball a lot (guys like Iverson, Malone)... I'd rather keep it, but don't feel strongly... what do others think about TOs? keep it or lose it?
13-man roster (10 starters, 3 Bench, 2 IL)
PG/SG/G/G / SF/PF/F/F / C/C / B/B/B / IL/IL
This allows for 1 bench backup each for G, F, and C (or whatever combo you prefer)
Scoring system votes | Full- Season Roto | H2H Roto | No Vote Yet | | beebop | Mr. NG | YOUNGBUCK | | Doug | beetski | lazio | | kiwi | Memphis Fan | talonted | | | blooki |
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| 67 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 00:32
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Okay, i came up with a draft order using a randomizer.
1. Lazio
2. Memphis Fan
3. Doug
4. Kiwi2
5. MNG
6. Talonted
7. youngbuck
8. beebop
9. blooki
10. beetski
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| 68 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:13
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Yay, finally im within the top 5.
Okay, as far as stats. I dont agree with PF's, I dont think they have any baring on how good or bad a player is. Fouls are pretty random, so I cant imagine trying to consider them when drafting. Id like to see 3PT% instead.
Not too crazy about A/TO instead of A & TO. But I can live. Other than that, looks good. As I see it its a bit uneven right now as PF's are better than PG's.
PF: ORB TRB FG BLK PTS
PG: A/TO ST 3PM FT
I think 3PT% replacing PF's would even up the forward vs. guard catagory.
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| 70 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:16
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Well, if no one has any objections, i think that can be done, in regard to pf and 3p%. Because then that will even up a little bit the players who shoot goo 3's, compared to the ones who shoot alot, but with a lower %
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| 71 | YOUNGBUCK
ID: 23331202
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:18
|
when do we draft?
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| 72 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:25
|
I vote for full season roto.
And don't know how fond I am of all this double counting. I liked it simple. I don't mind turning A and TO to A/TO, but I don't like having all three. And not sure I like 3P% as well as 3PM, but I'd rather have 3P% and 3PM over PF and 3PM. I agree w/ Memphis on the more-or-less trivialness of PFs. Also, keep in mind that lots of PFs should limit playing time and therefore result in worse stats in most of the other categories.
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| 73 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:32
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When we get the categories all sorted. Im hoping we can start drafting in a day or two.
Im not sure we will all agree on all the categories, so we'll have to compromise on some.
So far it is now 4-3 in favour of full season.
Youngbuck, which would you prefer???
Also blooki, whats your email, IM Name???
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| 74 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:34
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I think its pretty much agreed to rid ourselves of A & TO and use A/TO.
The only reason I suggest 3PT & 3PT% is to even out the difference between Guards and Forwards. Since we have OREB and DREB just ruling out PF's would leave us an uneven number of catagories that were in favor of Forwards. If there's a better catagory to even them out I didn't see it. I think we either have to add a pro-Guard catagory for PF's or remove ORB/TRB for REB. Either way is fine with me, just hate to see Guards get the shaft. :)
PF: ORB TRB FG BLK PTS
PG: A/TO ST 3PM FT (???)
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| 75 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:39
|
Side note,
We're also turning Jason Williams (MEM/PG) into an All-Star. LOL!
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| 76 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:54
|
How about for now....we keep it simple...
TRB
BLKS
FG%
PTS
A/TO
STLS
3PM
FT%
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| 77 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 01:55
|
Okay, after debating a while with Beebop. I really dont see a way to add ORB & TRB without doing somthing either wierd with AST or 3PT%. My vote is for:
FG, FT, REB, A/TO, STL, BLK, 3PM, PTS
Pretty simple, I don't think we need diversity in catagories to make this better. What does everyone think? 8 catagories is nice in even in my mind. But I know a few of you wanted more weighted OREB. Whats everyones vote?
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| 78 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:14
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That sounds okay, but it doesn't reward you if you get a lot of assists, just how well you handle the ball, of course I am willing to try something new, so that looks fine with me!
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| 80 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:25
|
OK, basically some stats favor F/Cs, others favor Gs, and others are fairly neutral.
PTS and TOs are pretty balanced across positions
TRB, ORB, DRB, BLK, FG% all heavily favor F/Cs
AST, A/TO, STL, 3PM, FT%, PFs tend to favor Gs
Gs aren't as dominat in their catagories as F/Cs are in theirs. For example, of the top 30 shot blockers last year (BPG), all were F/Cs. Of the top 30 ball theives (SPG), only 21 were Gs (9 were Fs).
So, to statistically balance F/Cs and Gs, I think it would make sense to have 4 catagories dominated by F/Cs, and 5 dominated by Gs (since their dominance isn't as strong). How about the 10 following categories? This is pretty standard fare, except we've added A/TOs for Gs, added the ORB stat for F/Cs, and removed the neutral TO stat.
PTS - neutral
TRB, ORB, BLK, FG% - F/Cs
AST A/TO, STL, 3PM, FT% - Gs
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| 81 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:29
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MNG:
A/TO rewards you for AST. From what I understand, if a PG dumped 20 AS and 2 TOs. It would be a 10/1.
Doug:
Still dont like the foul catagory. If we add AST and A/TO it just seems like we're counting alot of the same thing. Just for the sake of giving offensive rebounding players a benefit. Doesn't pan out in my mind. But if the majority thinks otherwise. I'll deal. :)
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| 82 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:32
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Just to simplify, the following categories are agreed upon:
PTS, BLKS, STLS, 3PM, FG%, FT%
The question is which stats to add to these 6 above. Do we add:
(a) TRB and A/TO, or
(b) TRB, ORB, A/TO, and AST
Both options are equally balanced in terms of F/Cs vs. Gs. With option (a), DRBs and ORBs count the same, and ASTs and TOs count the same. With option (b), ORBs are a bit more valuable than DRBs, and ASTs are more valuable than TOs (since they are used in two categories instead of just one). I vote for (b).
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| 83 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:34
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Im A.
If it needed to be said. :))
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| 84 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:36
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Memphis, I didn't include the foul category. I mentioned that it favors Gs, but did not include it in my suggestion. Your understanding of A/ TO ratio is correct. If the PG then had 2 more assists, his ratio would increase from 10 to 11. If he had 2 more turnovers on the other hand, it would drop all the way from 10 to 5. This is why I like using both... it allows TOs to be part of the equation, but makes assists more important relative to turnovers.
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| 85 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:40
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I like A, but think we still need assists as a category.
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| 86 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:52
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OK... but if we add assists, shouldn't we add ORBs as well to keep it balanced between the positions? Hence (b)?
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| 87 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 02:53
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How about we just scap it and go back to basics?
AST/REB/3PT/PT/STL/BLK/FT/FG/TO - save the drama, we're close enough to that with (a) :)
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| 88 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:01
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Well put Memphis Fan. So we can start drafting soon, I think its final that we just go with:
Points
Rebounds
Assists
Steaks
Blocks
3PM
FG%
FT%
TO
When can everyone be ready to draft???
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| 89 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:02
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Now? :)
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| 91 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:06
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Actually, just convert TO to A/TO and add ORBs... then we're good to go.
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| 92 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:11
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Well, convince some more people of your master plan Doug. :)
So far, Myself and & Beebop are for the regular:
AST/REB/3PT/PT/STL/BLK/FT%/FG%/TO
And your alone with:
PTS/BLK/STL/3PM/FG%/FT%/TRB/ORB/AST & A/TO
Whos with A. -- Me, Beebop
AND whos B. -- Doug
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| 93 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:26
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A is boring!!! Same as every other friggin' league out there! Let's have a _little_ variety at least... changing TO to A/TO and adding ORBs is just 2 categories, making it interesting while still leaving the other 8 as the normal, traditional statistics. I raise my hand 10 times for (b)!!!
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| 94 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 03:38
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well....i think we have a vote going on, then we can start drafting.....
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| 95 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 08:58
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I like anything with O-REBS that way girlie boys like Kidd dont have so much reb value
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| 96 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 09:16
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i'm pleased with both scoring plans, i would be pleased with a H2H league.....but, mainly, i'm pleased to have the #1 pick!!!!
damn, 2 drafts a #4 and a #1 pick.....pretty lucky, no?
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| 97 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 09:22
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i got an 8 out of 12, 4 outta 5 and 10 outta 10. GREAT LUCK OVA HERE
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| 98 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 12:27
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Scoring category vote
Established - PT / TRB / AST / STL / BLK / 3PT / FT% / FG%
Add A/TO and OREB to the mix - Doug, beetski
Add TO to the mix - beebop, MF
"I can't form an opinion" =-) - lazio
"I haven't had time to post" - kiwi, NG, YB, talonted, blooki
Scoring system vote
Established - Rotisserie style
Full-season - beebop, Doug, kiwi
H2H - NG, beetski, MF, lazio
"I haven't had time to post" - YB, talonted, blooki
As long as I get my way on one or the other... I don't need both. If we add A/TOs and OREBs, I'm willing to go H2H.
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| 99 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 13:13
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Id rather change my scoring sytem than catergories
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| 100 | talonted
ID: 317202817
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 13:33
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Scoring category vote:
Add A/To and OREB to the mix
-hmm might as well try something diff. for once..
Scoring system vote:
H2H
-keeps things even and fresh every week of the season, rather than being stuck last in all categories with no way to improve.....
can we define the KEEPER RULES, while we are at this also??? i say 3 keepers & NO POSITIONAL Restrictions...
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| 101 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 16:34
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I was thinking 5, but keeping 3 makes it more interesting. Who likes 3???
I think itd be better with a/to and oreb. Just looking at it, 10 categories looks better than 9.
So we have 5 people who want h2h, and 5 who want to add a/to and oreb. If this is a deadlock, we'll go h2h, and a/to and oreb.
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| 102 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 16:41
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Let's just go with that beebop... h2h, a/to, and oreb... the only other thing we need to decide before the draft is how many keepers and how long you can keep them, I have no strong feelings on the issue so I'll abstain from that vote.
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| 103 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 16:58
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just making another crazy statement. since 13 players wouldnt it be interesting to keep like 10
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| 104 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 17:11
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Bu then there would be no one good in the draft the following year. But i dont think we should disregard keeping 10 players just yet.
One thing i was thinking was keeping 3 players, plus a franchise player which you could keep for the whole thing. You can change your franchise player, but you wouldnt be able to keep the previous one.
Say Dirk was your franchise player, and at the end of season 2, you change your franchise guy to Ben Wallace, for season 3, you would not be able to keep dirk.
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| 105 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 17:42
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KEEPING 10 guys would mean the next yeas draft would have to be pretty intense decision making as to who u need to round off ur roster based on ur weaknesses form the previous season
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| 106 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 17:45
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Okay...so, so far we have two ideas....Ill be leaving for school soon, where i cannot access this message board (comes under the category of gambling????).
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| 107 | talonted
ID: 317202817
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 20:31
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KEEPING 10 guys on a 13-player roster would limit any kind of re-tooling in successive seasons. The top tier teams will always have a solid franchise, and the bottom tier teams will find it very hard to improve if they have to keep 75% of their roster. Beetski, i know where you are going with the idea, and want a bit of roster continuity, but being a lower tier position will suck with no flexibility. I originally suggested 3 keepers, but i am open to any number everyone agrees with.
In regards to the "franchise player" option, its a neat idea, but it is redundant concept if we are already declaring KEEPERS every season. I can see a "franchise player rule" be effective if we limit the consecutive seasons we can retain a player.
For example: you can only KEEP Kobe 2 consecutive seasons and the follow season (SEASON 3), he cannot be protected. That way all the NBA superstars will have a chance to be on everyones rosters. Unless you designate Kobe a 'franchise player", then he will be exempt to the 2 consecutive season rule. A "franchise player" can be kept for 5 consecutive seasons.
ie.
END of 2002-2003 roster (incl. keeper number and number of seasons on roster)
PG: Andre Miller (keeper #1.1)
SG: Kobe Bryant (franchise #1.1)
G: Allan Houston - redraft
SF: Glenn Robinson - (keeper #2.1)
PF: Vin Baker - redraft
F: Ron Artest - redraft
C: Dikembe Mutumbo (keeper #3.1)
C: Brad Miller - redraft
Util: Keith Van Horn - redraft
Util: Wally Szcerbiak - redraft
MID-2003-2004 season
trade Glenn Robinson for Pau Gasol
END of 2003-2004 roster
PG: Andre Miller (keeper #1.2)
SG: Kobe Bryant (franchise #1.2)
SF: Pau Gasol (keeper #2.1)
C: Dikembe Mutumbo (keeper #3.2)
MID-2004-2005 season
obtain Rashard Lewis and Bonzi Wells thru trades
END of 2004-2005 roster
PG: Andre Miller -must enter re-draft
SG: Kobe Bryant (franchise #1.3)
SF: Pau Gasol (keeper #1.2)
C: Mutombo - must enter re-draft
bench: Rashard Lewis (keeper #2.1)
bench: Bonzi Wells (keeper #3.1)
A "franchise player" can be designated as a "keeper", but will THEN be subject to the keeper rules of 2 consecutive seasons. A "franchise player" CANNOT become a "keeper" for ONE season and then become a "franchise player again" for the following season. A "franchise player" can only be designate ONCE per ownership. This prevents teams trading "franchise players" back-and-forth from rosters to RESET the years counted.
Just some rules i have played with in the past. Any other "franchise player" suggestions??? if we are going that route??? personally, the concept has both PROS and CONS.
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| 108 | beetski
ID: 206282522
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 20:44
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I dunno, Franchise Keeper same thing to me. How about this, like a switching stud kinda thing. According to Yahoo rank, each team ranks out their players. The top 3 guys from each team are grouped together and placed into next years draft.
My team is
Pierce
Wallace
Spree
Doug has
Andre
AI
Jermo
In the draft OBVS first round you pick a trio. and then the rest of the players are entered into draft as usually
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| 110 | Doug
ID: 3411223
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 21:14
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Talonted, I like your idea, but one thing I'm a little confused about is when you say you can "keep someone for 2 seasons". I think you mean you can keep him twice, through 2 "off- seasons", meaning he's on my roster for 3 "actual seasons". I just wasn't 100% sure because of the wording.
Just to throw another idea out there... every manager gets 9 keeper points each offseason. The first offseason that you keep someone, they count as 1 point. The second offseason they count as 2 points, and so on. Max of 5 keepers per year. So your first year, if you keep 5 guys, they will all count 1 point.
The next year, you couldn't keep the same 5, because they would count 2 points each for a total of 10. So you'd have to drop at least one of your original keepers (though you could still add a new keeper from the second year's draft).
Then in year 3, you could keep 3 of your 4 remaining original draft picks at 3 points each, but that would be your full 9 points... you couldn't keep your full 5 players! Probably not the best choice, because alternately, if you decided to keep only 2 of your orignal picks, that would be 6 points total, leaving 3 points available for first- or-second-time keepers. There are many other permeutations as well. Hypothetically, you could keep 1 guy 9 times, but your team would suck every year because you'd only have 1 or 2 other keepers to go along with him while everyone else was keeping 4 or 5 each year.
I think this explanation is pretty straight-forward, but I can provide an example like talonted did for his idea if anyone is confused by it.
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| 111 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 21:19
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Hey doug could you make one of those sheets for the Allstar league if you get the chance? Thanks.
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| 112 | talonted
ID: 317202817
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:09
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to Doug ---"I think you mean you can keep him twice, through 2 "off- seasons", meaning he's on my roster for 3 "actual seasons". I just wasn't 100% sure because of the wording." --- YES, just like you interpeted.. sorry for the misleading wording.
to Doug --- i like your 9 point system, never seen that before. it looks pretty easy to manage. We can just keep track of player rosters and their eligibility on a spreadsheet every off-season.
Doug, quick question about your system. If you trade a player (Kobe) and re-claim him in a trade, is his point value reset in regards to resigning???
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| 113 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 21922183
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:46
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talonted - thanks for clarifying... as for the Kobe example, I guess I just assumed that if you traded a player that his keeper status went with him. If you keep Kobe twice and trade him to me during his third season with you, I don't think that his keeper points should reset to 1 at the end of that season (regardless if I trade him back to you or keep him myself). One option is that if a player is traded to you during the year, then his keeper points stay the same as they were the previous year... so in the example I just gave, if I keep him at the end of that third season, he only costs me 2 points instead of 3. Basically a "1-year keeper point increase exemption" for traded players. This exemption does not apply if the player has already been on your roster within the past year (to prevent trading players back and forth). How does that sound? I would assume that the Yahoo! software allows us to view transaction history so we can check if a player has been on your roster, etc. rather than having to keep our own spreadsheets.
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| 114 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 21922183
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 22:49
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Mr. NG... it takes a fair amount of my time to fill all those players in... I'm not really following the AllStar draft. However, if you want to send me a excel spreadsheet with all the data filled in then I can quickly adapt it to an HTML table and post it for you.
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| 115 | Blooki @ gf's
ID: 38830719
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:13
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I have voted for scoring style. I like full-season.
I also like keeping the scoring categories simple. I vote with Beebop and MF and keeping it to either... PTS/FT%/FG%/3PM/TREB/STL/BLK/AST/TO or all the same w/ AST and TO merged into AST/TO ratio.
I don't think this will make the league boring and like every other league. What makes leagues exciting is active and savvy managers and unique draft orders. Tweaking a good and proven scoring format is just asking for trouble. If it ain't broke, why fix it?
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| 116 | IRRIDUCIBILI LAZIO
ID: 221441621
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:21
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i'm looking to trade my 1st and a "later than 6th" pick for a pick from 2 to 5 and a 3rd rounder
.....i'm still not sure of it, but if anyone is interested i'm open to hear all trades' words....
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| 117 | Blooki @ gf's
ID: 38830719
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:27
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I vote for keeping 3 players.
And still strongly vote for no double counting of assists or 3PM or anything else. I have no problem w/ splitting REB into OREB and DREB.
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| 118 | Sparty
ID: 43846823
Sun, Sep 08, 2002, 23:47
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Got an email from Talonted about the possible league. I'm looking for an empire basketball league. I've never done an empire league, and have been looking for one. Empire leagues are full-roster keeper leagues. This is an example of a empire football league http://www.kffl.com/empire/. If you are planning an empire type league, I want in.
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| 119 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 00:39
|
Summarized and updated
Scoring category vote
Established - PT / TRB / AST / STL / BLK / 3PT / FT% / FG%
Add A/TO and OREB to the mix - Doug, beetski, talonted
Add TO to the mix - NG, MF, blooki, beebop (or did you change your mind beebop? I wasn't sure...)
"I can't form an opinion" =-) - lazio
"I haven't had time to post" - kiwi, youngbuck
Scoring system vote
Established - Rotisserie style
Full-season - beebop, Doug, kiwi, blooki
H2H - NG, beetski, MF, lazio, talonted
"I haven't had time to post" - youngbuck
Keepers Update
talonted originally suggested 3, beebop was down with that, blooki wants 3, I personally don't care, beetski suggested 10 (but that really makes it more of a dynasty league than a keeper league)... talonted and I have both suggested methods of doing it with 3-5 keepers
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| 120 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 00:45
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I like 2 or 3 personally, with a slight edge to 2, because it would broaden the aspect of more players.
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| 121 | MNG@college
ID: 117422015
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 00:56
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What I mean by "more players" is in fact better players in next years draft.
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| 122 | YOUNGBUCK
ID: 331381323
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 01:19
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iam gonna stay neutral in the voting process.
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| 124 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 01:59
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LOL! Looks like the deciding or tying factor will be kiwi's. Kiwi, are you out there? :)
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| 125 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 01:59
|
If anyone is interested in moving up to the #3 pick in the first round, let me know via email or AOL IM: SiriusAdventures. Let's try to work something out.
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| 126 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 02:13
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Puhlllleeaaasseeee kiwi... vote to add the 2 "slightly" experimental stats to the standard 8... then it'll just be a matter of twisting beebop or lazio's arm. I'm pretty sure I can do that... heh heh....
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| 127 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 02:40
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Standard Rocks! You cant improve perfection. Im a living example of that. :)))
LOL!
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| 128 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 02:58
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*rolls eyes*... what's the matter MF, afraid of a tiny bit of change? =-) let the smack begin...
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| 129 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 03:15
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One more thing... the main argument anyone has put up against A/TO and ORB seems to some nebulous uneasiness with double-counting which I still don't get... but in any case, if we DID end up leaving out A/TO and ORB (which I strongly hope we won't) then to be consistent we'd also need to change 3PM to 3P%, because using the "standard" or "traditional" stats of PTS and 3PM would be... DOUBLE COUNTING... GASP!!! The horror... the horror...
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| 130 | beebop
ID: 3984877
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 04:56
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Well....kiwi2 has said just add TO's. So, thats 5-3 in favour of just TO's. Kiwi2 may have no interent for a few days, so he'll be posting at my house. I think we'll go with H2H.
Who wants to start drafting soon???
Kiwi2 also likes the 3 keepers and a franchise player. So thats at least 4 ppl for that.
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| 131 | Memphis Fan
ID: 30632614
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 10:08
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Lets get this show on the road.
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| 132 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 11:53
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The thing is... I feel that FG%, FT%, and 3PM are distinct enough from PTs to qualify as separate categories. If anything, PTs would be the first to be removed or tweaked, but that's just plain silly. I think most people can agree that PTs is definitely a category to be included. AST and AST/TO just feels too closely related to me. I would conjecture that if you ranked all the players by AST and AST/TO, you'd see a similar ranking. Whereas if you ranked all the players by FG% and PTs or FT% and PTs or 3PM and PTs you would see somewhat different rankings. This whole discussion is subjective and purely a matter of taste, so there's no need to use sarcasm or mockery to belittle the other side of the argument. Whichever side wins, I will willingly and peacefully cooperate with, but I think it's important for everybody to express their own views and fairly have them represented.
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| 133 | Doug
Sustainer
ID: 3411223
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 12:31
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Sarcasm aside, I feel 3PMs and PTS are double-counting just as much as ORBs and TRBs is. If that's the logic that most people have presented, I'm just suggesting that we be consistent in applying it. On the other hand, if the basis for your decision is just that you "feel" that way, then the issue can't be debated rationally anyway, because it just comes down to feeling. That's not a criticism or mockery, just an observation, and the reason why I'll shut up now.
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| 134 | Blooki
ID: 6838118
Mon, Sep 09, 2002, 12:48
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New thread.
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Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
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