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Subject: Minnesota car buyers "Bill of Rights"
Posted by: sarge33rd
- [99331714] Thu, Dec 13, 2007, 17:53
OK, it had to happen. Following the CA legislation which took affect this past July, now Minnesota has one in the works.
I've provided alink to the legislation as it currently is written. I wonder, how many of you can/will look at it objectively, and see the honest and obvious results?
I've already prepared correspondance relative to the legislation, addressed to the bills author. I'll post a copy in a day or so.
I am interested, in what you have to say about the legislation, as consumers.
Minnesota car buyers "Bill of Rights", proposal
IMHO, if this legislation is passed as written, there will be NO, count them ZERO, new vehicle franchises in the entire state. The why behind that, when I post my letter to the author. |
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| 304 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 21:29
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oh, and the carmax question. getting there too.
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| 305 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 21:48
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299/DW: That is a tremendous post and you are exactly correct about the differences the consumer hears/sees before they get to the dealership.
There are 2 toyota dealers here in town that are constantly fighting each other for business. Trying to one up each other, etc. One of them actually bought a billboard across the street from the other. It say's "Bring your quote and we'll beat it!" What they don't tell them is they charge $300 more in fees.
On to the dealer prep. MC will have to handle motorcycles, I'll take care of cars.
When the car arrives, it has a plastic coating on it (might have seen the white 'sheets'), the seats are wrapped in plastic, there are only 'break in' fluids in the car...things like that. The car has to go through 'clean up' and then into the mechanics for oil, pwr. steering fluid, gas, anti-freeze, etc. See, these fluids are considered toxic so they ship with a min. amt (under legal limits) so the car transport does not have to have a haz-mat certificate. Now, the factory pays the dealership for this service. It's also known as PDI (pre-delivery inspection).
Some dealers are putting this on the buyer's order as a line item cost but they have already been paid for it. Add this to the documentation fee and you have about $400-700 in 'fees' but they have sold the car for invoice (as they advertised to you), so it's the exchange of profit. They take it off the advertised price* (with T/T/L and fees) and put it back on when you decide to buy. Is this where people say "they screwed me by adding all these fees"...yes.
But if the consumer is looking at the Sun. paper and there are 2 dealerships advertising the same car and one of them is $700 over invoice (no add on fees) and the other is invoice (add on fees), which dealership will the consumer visit?
The job of advertising is to get people on the lot. Do you do that by advertising at a higher price than the competition? No. Someone mentioned going to Circuit City because their TV was listed $50 cheaper than Best Buy. This is reason we consumers have choices.
Best Buy had a $400 laptop advertised last Sun. Was I planning on going shopping Sun.? No. But MAN WHAT A DEAL! I showed up and they were sold out but I still walked around and ended up buying stuff.
Now, I am not, repeat NOT, defending the practice at all! I agree with DWetzel's Motors approach. Tell me what I'm paying up front. I'm just explaining the realities and, hopefully, answering your questions.
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| 306 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 21:52
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OK...first; this is going to be long. My apologies for that.
Now, let me begin by stating, for the record, I am in full favor of full and open, total disclosure in an automobile transaction. Whether its a cash purchase or a finance purchase, I (and most dealers) endorse total and open disclosure of all facts.
Having said that, it BEGINS with the consumer. YOU, have to be honest with us about your intentions. If you intend to trade, then tell us that. If your trade is a POS, then dont try and demand top dollar for it. If you're upside down in your trade, then dont demand that you be able to finance your new car, with no money down, at the same payment as your old car. If your credit svcks, dont try and convince us that you should get an A Tier Interest Rate. If you're a walking lawsuit looking for a place to happen, then go somewhere else. Be HONEST with us and we'll return the favor.
When I as a car salesman, told a customer we didnt have "that much room in a car", I WAS being honest with them. Seldom if ever, stopped them from calling me a liar to my face. Do that, and you can expect the level of co-operation you get on the lot, to drop dramatically. Come in with a belligerent attitude, and you WILL pay more for what you are trying to buy. When I first got into this business, my folks said "Oh good. Now we can buy a car at dealer cost." ????? What makes them think they are entitled to that? What makes ANYONE think they are entitled to that? I told them "No. Now you can pay full MSRP. Because regardless of how much time I spend with you on the lot. Regardless of what car YOU SELECT, for the next 3 years at every holiday dinner all I'm going to hear about is that POS I sold you. If I gotta hear it, I sure as hell deserve to get paid for it."
Some are asking for specific penal codes/legislation references. Sorry, I cant provide those. My knowledge comes from 9 years of doing this. 9 years of reading monthly industry publications. 9 years of attending training conferences and discussions with vendor reps and manufacturer reps. MOST every process in the dealership today....stems from a court case. A Court case which some dealer, somewhere at some point in time...lost. You'll just have to trust me on this one, same as I'd just have to trust Balrog with his engineering. (I couldnt decipher the math behind an engineers equations anyway.) Sometimes, you just have to take someone at their word.
I referenced earlier, the waiver forms customers sign when they DONT want to buy product in the finance office. Again, thank the lawsuit from Wisconsin for that. What lawsuit? I dont know specifically. It was circa 1995 or 1996. My reps and my GMAC Legal rep told me about it back in 1998 when I first got promoted into the F&I Office.
Administrative fees.
Federal courts have ruled that to charge a finance customer an administrative fee that isnt charged to a cash customer, constitutes discriminatory business practices, predatory lending AND undisclosed interest. That ruling, carries over to cash deals compared to cash deals. When customer "A" is charged a fee, then EVERY customer after customer "A" had better be charged the same fee, or that dealership is open to a discrimination lawsuit.
Now, what happens when someone files that suit? First off, it makes front page news in the local paper. Nice big bold print for the whole city to see. IF that suit is subsequently thrown out of court, it MIGHT be a paragraph on page 5 of Section C on Sunday. Right underneath the JC Penney bra sale ad. Maybe. The dealer loses, even if they win.
Secondly, this little thing called "discovery" takes place. Where the consumers lawyers dig into every deal file for the past 6 months. IF they find another such instance, suddenly it becomes a Class Action lawsuit, and now they will dig through every record for the past 2 years. Just looking for any "i"s that werent dotted just so, or a "t" that wasnt crossed just right. And again, it makes front page news if it goes to a Class Action status. Oh, that customer is the dealers brother and THATS why he wasnt charged the fee? Too bad. Thats illegal. That then, makes every customer who was charged the fee, a party to the Class Action. Said dealership is now out of business.
Are there dealers who DESERVE to be out of business? Absolutely. Are there Drs who deserve their licenses pulled? Yes. Are there plumbers who are incompetent and deserve to have their licenses pulled? Yes. Just as in any profession, there are both good and bad examples of that profession. No where and at no time, have I ever claimed otherwise.
The finance office
My area of expertise. Is there value in every product offered? Absolutely. Maybe not to you individually, but to someone there is. Many consumer groups scream loudly against Credit Life for ex. Yet that is the very product which caused the WI dealership to lose in court. There is a widow I know of in Harlan, IA, who will strenuously argue in favor of Cdt Life. It paid off her Lincoln Town car when her husband unexpectedly died. Pete Maravich's widow will tell you it has value. When he died, his assets were tied up for so long, his widow came within days of losing her home and cars. Credit life on the mortgage and/or cars would have made the 6 months after his passing, MUCH less financially stressful for her. An estate planning attorney in Ames, IA will argue that it has value. Because the creditor is the beneficiary, it cannot be contested by heirs and it cannot be tied up in probate. It simply eliminates a debt thus making life much easier on a surviving spouse.
What of Credit Disability? Trucker in Ft Dodge whose F350 was paid for by Cdt Health after he hurt his back on the job and couldnt work for almost 3 years, will probably fight you if you try and tell him its a waste of money. A meat packer in Sioux City, would do the same, since it paid off his family van while he was laid up after an accident at the packing plant.
Extended Service Contracts? I've had them on every car I've bought since 1986 or so. On some I used them to no end, on others? Not at all. I still get it every time though. Why? Because if I need it, its easier. I like easy. $30/m or so, and I dont have to be concerned about the tranny or the A/C or the computer control module.
Rust-proofing, paint sealant etc etc etc. Yes, yes and yes. Depending on where you live of course. Iowa puts 10 tons of salt on every mile of hard surface road every winter. Yes, I rust proofed my cars in Iowa. Texas? Wouldnt know what to do with snow. I dont rust proof here.
Markup on the loan rate. Absolutely! I negotiated the loan, with a buy rate (what my dealer has to pay for the loan) below what you can get walking into that same bank off the street. When I add 1% to the rate, it gives you the SAME rate you'd get if you walked in off the street, but you didnt HAVE to go anywhere. You didnt have to fight downtown traffic, and spend time at the banka s well as at the dealership. How many of you have bought a gal of milk at the convenience store even though it costs you an extra $1 vs at the grocery store? Same principle applies to in store financing. You want convenient AND easy? Then why should you be upset if you pay the same rate through the dealership that you'd pay if you went to the bank yourself? What possible difference does it make to you, that my store gets paid a little bit on writing that loan? Did we not do work? Did we not save you time? Did we not make it more convenient for you? Half the time, I negotiate a loan that same bank would have declined you on, had you walked into the bank off the street. Then whats the problem?
Trade ins
Trade offers ARE in writing, at every dealership I know of. NEVER have I seen a dealership that doesnt write the deal up on a buyers order and have both the customer AND the sales manager sign off on it, BEFORE it goes to the F&I office to be entered into the computer.
When you the consumer can see the numbers and have to sign off on them before the sales manager will, how is that not transparent? When that has to be done BEFORE I'll prep the legal docs for signature, how is that subterfuge?
30 years ago, to buy a car at a dealership, you filled out a Bill of Sale and a Title pplication. Period. That was about it unless you were financing. Now?
Buyers Order laying out the terms of the sale.
Odometer Disclosure Statement where the dealer affirms the accuracy of the odometer on the vehicle being purchased. (A second one if there is a trade-in, where you the consumer affirm the mileage on your trades odometer.)
Damage Disclosure Statement where the dealer affirms the cumulative dollar amounts of body repairs executed on the veh being purchased. (Second one from you the consumer on your trade if there is one.)
Title Application
Loan Application
Retail Installment Contract (if financed at the store) At the top of this form, the interest rate, the term, the monthly payment, the total of ALL scheduled payments, the total of ALL payments including down payment, the due date for payments and an itemization of how the bottom line was figured, are all presented.
Bill of Sale
Service Contract or waiver saying you decline it.
Credit Life or waiver saying you dont want it.
Credit Health or waiver saying you dont want it.
etc etc etc
Every thing, absolutely every aspect is in writing and has to be signed by both the consumer and the dealer. With that being the case, how can one possibly try and argue that there is no transparency to the process? Anymore transparency, and there will be less paperwork in buying a home than in buying a car.
Remember when you used to be able to do a credit app over the phone with your local dealer? Cant do that anymore. Federal Law says I have to verify your identity before I can pull your bureau and I have to have a signed credit app before I can submit it to the bank. Cant see your photo ID over the phone and you cant sign the app that way either. So its not that I dont care how busy you are, its that I have no choice but to require your physical presence in order to arrange financing. I know its not as convenient as it used to be. I'm sorry for that. But I have no option. I'm not willing to risk jail time for facilitating identity theft, because its inconvenient for you to come down to the car lot.
Coming onto the lot 5 minutes before we close, and thinking you'll get a killer deal, is bass-ackwards if anything ever was. We've been there for 12 hours already. We want to go home and have dinner too. But here you come...... Know what? You keep 6 of us here for 2 hours past close? You ARE going to pay for that. Trust me on that guys. I dont care how well you've done your homework. If you're going to be THAT utterly inconsiderate and thoughtless, then you DESERVE to pay, and pay you will. And if you're not paying? Then you're not buying either. And it wont take us long to figure that out. And when we do? Conversation over....go home cause we are.
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| 307 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 21:59
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305 has to deal with dealer prep on a 'new' car. Used cars have fixed repair costs that are added to the amount the dealership paid for the car. These are 'hard' costs.
Dealer buys/trades for a car. It goes through the mechanic. Gets an oil change ($30), inspection, fluid check, etc. ($50) Maybe new brake pads ($100), maybe new tires ($300). It then goes to the detail shop (no one buys a dirty car) ($100). If there are paint chips ($40), door dings ($40), scratches on the interior, rips/fading on the seats or dash, etc. ($65), chrome touch-up, wheel repair ($75 each). They have to make this car as new as possible and address all mechanical issues before putting it out for sale. These items cost them and they add it to the cost of the car.
Funny story: I was at a dealership when a customer brought in the second set of keys for their trade. (Her car was already on the line) She said, "Wow, if I knew my old car could look that good I wouldn't have traded."
So, even if a car has nothing wrong with it, the dealer still has $180-250 in repairs. Most cars see around $550. This is why used cars vary greatly in price. You can have 2 identical used cars and one of them be $500 cheaper.
You were asking about dealer 'prep' and I wanted to explain how this can be different on new and used cars.
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| 308 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 22:20
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DW, My sincerest apologies! I lost the rock, papers, scissors fight and had to give the computer up.
Thank you Dealer Compliance, for stepping in.
Now, let me read what you said, and I'll be back. Yeah, I know I said that, but wasn't anticipating.....nevermind. doesn't matter. I'm here now, and I am sorry about the delay. Give me a few minutes to read and respond.
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| 309 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 22:43
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DW, You asked about dealer prep, so I'll start with the easiest, as DC pretty much answered for me. Motorcycles come to the dealership in a crate. They are covered in a chemical that adheres to all surfaces of the bike. It's basically a rust preventative. It doesn't come off easy. The dealership has to pay someone to get it off, as well as build the bike. It does not come fully assembled like a car does. The front tire, handlebars, all handlebar controls, front brake, to name the few items that jump out at me have to be put on. If it isn't assembled correctly....lets say the front brake controls are not right....guess what that means? No front brake, which is where 85-90% of your stopping power on a bike is located. Hence, the Manufacturer putting in the dealer agreement that the bike has to be assembled and ridden by a dealership tech before it's delivered to the customer.
Also, motorcycles, like cars are not fully serviced. Almost no fluids, no acid in the battery, and so forth, just like DC said with the cars, and for the same reason. For bikes though, at least in my state, a bike CAN NOT sit on my floor serviced. It's against the fire code. So, prep is a 2 part process. Assembly, and a thorough washing so it can sit on the floor, and after it's sold, the battery is filled with acid and charged, the fluids are topped off and a 3-5 mile service ride is done by the service MGR to ensure the bike is operating properly. What that service ride does is put the liability on the dealership, so if a customer rides out into traffic and gets into an accident, the dealership can state that the bike was operating properly with an experienced rider on it and it wasn't due to mechanical malfunction that the accident occured. That's the idea anyway.
Let me go read some more, and I'll be back.....
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| 310 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 22:44
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If I can, allow me to make a request before anyone posts about sarge's 306.
This thread started about a new law that was passed in MN. It quickly became a finger pointing forum of 'well you deserve it', 'no we don't if you would...'.
The past several dozen posts (I've lost count now) have actually broken through the walls and I've seen some actual communication and understanding take place between the people within the retail auto/motorcycle trade and the consumers (remember, we are ALL consumers) here.
What sarge is talking about, for the most part, in 306 is the additional forms we all have to sign when buying a vehicle. This is an extreme burden on the dealership personnel, especially the finance manager. He/she has to make sure every single paper is complete and accurate, otherwise 1) the customer has to come back to resign and/or 2) the dealership can be open for a silly lawsuit because one 't' wasn't crossed.
Please take into consideration the time he took to explain all of this to us and for sharing his experience. Let's not take only his last paragraph and get this thread back into a 'see that's the attitude I'm talking about' circle again. We can go on like that for years and still never get anywhere.
There is some really good information in 306. Please ask questions if you would like expansion on topics he made.
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| 311 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 22:56
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Let me address freight while I'm at it, then I'll go read some more.....
The manufacturer does not ship those bike to us for free. I wish they did, but they don't. Worse, as the price of gas and steel has increased, so has dealer cost.
Do I wish I didn't have to line item add those costs? Yes, I do. In fact, I'd sure like to meet the first guy that did and made it a "trend" for lack of a better word so I could kick that guy square in his ass.
If I could figure out a way to not charge freight and prep and stay in business, believe me, I would.
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| 312 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 22:58
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going back to the question about carmax and how they make money, or do they make money? I think that was the question but now I can't find the posting to reference. Sorry.
CarMax is mostly used cars. They do have many Chrysler/Jeep franchises within their 'super centers' but they are mostly used.
They have 'no haggle' pricing and the salespeople get paid a flat amount for each sale. Are they making money? I haven't researched that. They are a part of Circuit City, which is a public company so you can find the numbers in their annual report. But I can say, if they weren't making money, they wouldn't be in business. None of us (or our employers) would.
CarMax started several years ago. Is this the model of the future? With all the regulation taking place and the fact no one likes the negotiation part of the sales process...maybe. But then again, Saturn came out with the same thing and it hasn't changed the rest of GM. Will Car Max change the rest of the industry? Again...maybe.
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| 313 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 23:06
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Just had a thought on the freight issue. In some areas of the country, freight is more expensive than others. It also varies depending on the manufacturer. This is natural since it's a distance based price.
Toyota has less freight charge in the southeast because all the cars enter through Jacksonville, FL. Mazda has less freight in the NW because they come in through Vancouver, BC.
Actually, it can also vary depending on the model. For instance, BMW makes the X series SUV and the Z series sportster in Greenville, SC. The freight on those to, say the Atlanta dealer, is less than the freight charge on a 3, 5, 6 or 7 series.
The freight on the vehicles is paid to the distributor and manufacturer. There is $0 of profit for the dealership. It is a set cost they have to pay to receive the vehicles.
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| 314 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 23:08
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balrag RE: 303 and the CA law question.
I want to answer that with a clear response but I am too brain tired to do that tonight. Can you allow me tomorrow? I'd also like to talk with a couple of my CA dealers and bring that information back via my post.
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| 315 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Wed, Dec 19, 2007, 23:22
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OK, very last sentenance in 299....
Where does "no haggle" work? It starts and ends with honesty on both sides. True story from Tuesday night. Guy comes in with his grown son and they make a beeline for a specific ATV. This is the one they wanted, period. I greet them, and the man is FRIENDLY but firm, which is fair, and fine with me. What can you do for me on this ATV? We've been to so an so (1 1/2 hrs away) and we are buying either tonight or tomorrow. MY FIRST QUESTION, "Sir, do you live here, or so and so? Here, we were there for something else and stopped in. my response? "Sir, you are my LOCAL customer and I will do everything I can to earn your business. What will it take?" He looks at his kid, and kid gives me some totally off the wall #. I smiled a big smile at them both, and said, verbatim, as well as I can recall, "That's a pretty unrealistic number. If they gave you that # at XXX, then I'm following you guys out there tomorrow with MY trailer. I will however, get you as close to that as I can." I said it with a smile, and I walked off to get them a number. I ran some numbers, decided what I was willing to sell it for, and came back with an all inclusive # that was more than $1000 higher than what he requested. And believe me or not, I gave these guys a smokin deal. I gave him the #, he handed me his credit card. It was just that simple.
SO, what happened here? Easy. First and foremost, he was friendly. He told me what he wanted, and he was friendly about telling me. With his attitude, even though that by his demeaner and what he said I knew that I would be whoring out an ATV if I wanted it gone, he was straight up with me. I was straight up with him, and it worked out just fine. That guy got one hell of a deal on that ATV. Why? Because he was nice to me, and I wanted to earn his business.
Here's the thing. I will go out of my way to help someone. I will do what it takes to earn a customer's business and to take care of them after the sale. If you have a number from another dealer that I can't touch, I will tell you that too. What it takes, is the correct attitude from the customer right from the start. Trust me on this one. When you walk into a dealership with a chip on your shoulder and you're rude.....you loose money. The staff is much less willing to help you and much more likely to let you walk and go be someone else's problem.
I said it the other day, and I meant it. I don't want all the business. Just the good business. And that good business is not always the people I make the most money on. It's the folks that DON'T come in with a rotten, crappy attitude right from the start.
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| 316 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 00:05
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First of all: thanks, all, for taking time to answer the questions in a very thorough way. Seriously.
Now, at the risk of trying to force the creation of rotoguru4.com, I'm going to try to cover this from end to end.
Dealer prep: It makes sense to me that there are various things you have to do to the car/bike/used car, which you've thorougly explained above. I guess the question becomes, and as noted in 305, this is where consumers get ticked off, if this is something you MUST do to the car, and you know how much it costs... well, I'd just be repeating myself. The itemizing of it makes it appear to the consumer (even if it isn't actually the case) that "preparing" the car becomes a profit center for the dealership. And I'm sure it DOES, in some cases.
For used cars, it's a lot different. By doing actual repairs to the vehicle (be they chipped paint, body work, etc.), you are actually adding value to the vehicle. It makes total sense to me that the value you give me for the car I trade in will be less than the value that you sell it for, because 1) yes, you are entitled to make a profit on it, and 2) you are actually providing an added value. And I think in most cases consumers don't have a problem with this. (Of course, I'm sure the consumer always thinks the right profit margin for the used car is less than what the dealer thinks--but that's a legitimate source of negotiation, I think.)
Freight: Same thing, basically. Yes, it costs money to ship the cars to you. We do understand that the Star Trek transporter beam is not available to take them to the dealership. :) But, it's a non-optional cost--it's hard to have a car dealership without cars, just as it's hard to have a grocery store without groceries, or a Best Buy without electronics. Those other businesses don't create a separate "shipping" fee for their in-stock spaghetti sauce or home computers.
And I am virtually certain that the cost to ship a car from the factory to Sarge's Ford Sales on the east side of town is essentially the same as it is to ship it to MC Ford Motors on the west side. (If I am wrong, PLEASE, correct me.) Again, does freight become a profit center for the dealer? It might, it might not, but the appearance is that it sure could be.
Trade-ins: Sarge, I'm glad that all of your agreements are in writing. I'd assume that most are. I have one quibble with what you wrote though, and it could just be a misunderstanding of what you said on my part. Rather than attack it directly, let me just ask this:
A significant perception of the car sales industry is that the car salesman (who is, ostensibly, in a position to know what his employer will accept) will make a deal with the purchaser, regarding price, trade-in value, whatever. Then it goes to the mysterious "Sales Manager", who is roughly equivalent to the Wizard of Oz as far as the customer is concerned. It's a common perception that the deal, which the salesman had agreed to, then gets changed behind the emerald curtain. ("I really want to do this deal, but the best my Sales Manager will let me do is _______".)
At this point, the customer is basically left there thinking "Wait a minute, we just spent all this time talking about X, Y, and Z, and now you are telling me you can't do that?" Whether this happens any more or not, I don't know.
I'll address the avalanche of paperwork in a bit.
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| 317 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 00:12
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OK, re my last post, I'd like to try it another way as well.
Most people have a disdain for dealerships. OK, I'm not now, nor have I ever denied that some of you have earned that disdain and I do understand where you're coming from. The point I've been trying to make all along is realitivly simple though. For the most part, it ISN'T like that anymore, nor does it have to be. Are there still rotten apples out there? Yes. And trust me on this, the reputable dealers want them GONE as much as you do. Now, back to my point. Feel free to try this, you can do it anywhere.
DW, you're an Engineer, right? OK. I don't know what you engineer exactly....Planes? Trains? Automobiles? .....OK, probably not automobiles, but you get my point. So, lets say I walk into your office, and I think I know what it is that you do....I took drafting in college, that makes me an expert, right? I toss a pencil sketch onto your desk of a bridge and I demand that you build it out of XXX, and I want these exact dimensions,(even though in reality those dimensions would be structurely unsound) and I want it done by XXX date, and I want you best out the door price. And I want that price in the next 10 minutes, and I don't much care if you DO have 3 other people that were there before me.
What are you likely to say to me?
Let's try another one.
Walk into McDonald's, past anyone who's in line and tell the clerk.... "I want a Big Mac combo meal, I'll pay you 2 bucks for it and I want it before you serve these other people that were here first."
What kind of service would you expect?
Yes, those may be a little far-fetched, but that is essentially what many car/MC buyers do to salespeople every day.
If I did that to you, you'd laugh me out of your office, and could care less about the commission it cost you since you won't be building my bridge. Right? Honestly. Far-fetched as it may seem, put yourself in that situation in your mind and tell me you wouldn't toss me out of your office.
That's what we're trying to say about the way we treat some customers. It isn't that we don't want to help you exactly, it's just that I for one have worked very hard to get to where I am and I just don't have much tolerance for rude when I'M not the one that shafted you on that car you bought 15 yrs ago.
I have a mantra that I live by. I read it in a book written by Dick Francis. It's probably corny, but I like it, and it serves me well. It goes like this... "May I deal with honor. May I act with courage. May I achieve humility."
Admittedly, I struggle with that last one, but....well hell, I'm human.
Thanks for you time. I mean that. And once again, I apologize for my disappearance act earlier. It wasn't planned....As time allows tomorrow, I'll do my best to respond when I can and when I have something intelligent to contribute. For now, I'm off to bed. Good night all, I hope you have a wonderful evening.
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| 318 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 00:25
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I was composing 316 while 313-315 were going up. It's hard to type a really long post WHILE checking web sites and playing bridge online. Hence the possible crossed wires (particularly re: the freight issue covered in 313). I think anyone but the most brain-dead consumer understands that it costs more to ship something across the country than it does to ship it 50 miles. On the other hand, it would also makes sense that within a fairly localized geographical area (i.e. the area that Customer X plans to shop in), that shipping cost would be equal, or essentially so... right?
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| 319 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 00:57
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Oh, and before I get into the forms, a word about the "discrimination" thing again, as discussed in 306.
This is an area that I have significant experience in via real estate (in particular, via apartment rental). If you ever decide to become a licensed real estate salesperson in your state, rest assured that of the required education and continuing education, you WILL have it drummed into you in excruciating detail the ways in which you may not discriminate according to federal, state and local laws in your area. I admit to being much less familiar with laws as they apply to finance.
You state that "Federal courts have ruled that to charge a finance customer an administrative fee that isnt charged to a cash customer, constitutes discriminatory business practices, predatory lending AND undisclosed interest. That ruling, carries over to cash deals compared to cash deals. When customer "A" is charged a fee, then EVERY customer after customer "A" had better be charged the same fee, or that dealership is open to a discrimination lawsuit."
The first part of this statement I agree with. It would be unlawful, for instance, to charge a customer that is getting a loan on the car a higher price for the vehicle, just because they are getting a loan. You also can't decide to charge them double the "dealer prep" fee for the time it takes to process the loan. I am quite sure that the lender can charge a fee for their services (provided of course it's fully disclosed, complies with interest rate disclosures, etcetera etcetera, yadda yadda).
As a landlord, in the location we rent in, we cannot discriminate based on a number of factors, included among those is "source of income". (This basically means that if you have a housing voucher, or a fellowship, or some other "non-traditional" source of actual income, we have to treat it the same as if you were working a 9 to 5 job making that much a month). Now, I certainly CAN discriminate based on amount of income.
What I don't agree with is the extrapolation of that principle to the second part of your statement, as you seem to want to apply it. As I stated earlier (and you seem to have ignored), you certainly MAY change your policy regarding charging "administrative fees", as long as you treat all of your customers equally. It simply isn't accurate to say that because we've charged a document fee for 20 years, that we have to continue to charge it for all eternity.
I'm sure that at some point, the dealership you worked at changed the amount they charged for that fee. Common sense and inflation dictate that. As long as it applied to all customers equally over that time period, I will guarantee you that you are in no danger of losing a discrimination lawsuit.
(I cannot, of course, guarantee you that you won't be sued. People sue over all sorts of stupid things. But I can guarantee you that if you can, for instance document that in 1998 you charged all your customers a document fee of $25, and in March 1999 you raised that document fee to $50, or for that matter lowered it to zero, you would not LOSE that suit.)
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| 320 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 01:14
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Man, I type slow.
MC, I am a real estate agent specializing in commercial properties (in other words, if you want someone to help sell your house, you do NOT want me.) My firm also manages approximately 1000 apartment units, and I have some background in that end of the business as well.
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| 321 | DWetzel
ID: 45301312
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 01:29
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Okay, I lied. I'll deal with the document issue tomorrow.
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| 322 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 08:13
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316/DW: The reason shipping has to be itemized is due to law. The other retailers do not have to itemize shipping, advertising, etc. and this is the reason for 1) the dealers feeling they are being required to disclose more than other retailers and 2) confusion on the consumer part thinking it's all hidden/added profit.
If others had to disclose this it would also confuse the consumer. You buy an orange and instead of it being 50 cents. It's 30 cents, plus 15 cents plus 5 cents. It's still 50 cents but because the items are detailed, you would question the charges.
It reminds me when I got my first gas bill at my first apartment. The bill was $46 and everything was itemized. The actual gas I used was $16 and the charges made up the rest. Phone bills are the same way. So why don't they just combine all of these and charge one price? They can't. By law they have to disclose every charge.
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| 323 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 08:30
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re 319 "discrimination":
I believe this is a combination of two different points that sarge started.
First. As long as every customer is charged the same fees (prep, doc, shipping), there are no problems.
Second: charging a finance customer one fee and not a cash customer. This issue originated from sarge talking about 'sub-prime' credit customers. Some banks will charge a fee to the dealer in order to write the loan. This fee cannot be disclosed, if it is, it's discriminatory.
What sarge was saying is once the price is negotiated and the dealer finds out the buyer has horrible credit (that wasn't disclosed earlier) they have to shift from a prime bank (no fee) to a sub-prime bank (fee). This fee reduces the dealers profit. Had they known earlier they need to allow for the fee when negotiating price, there would have been enough room to pay for the fee. This also creates assumption that "we already agreed on x price, now you say you have to add 10% to pay some bank? you guys are just trying to screw me." When in fact, it's really the bank screwing the customer, not the dealership.
There is discussion going on right now on whether these fees need to be disclosed to the customer and whether they need to be computed as pre-paid interest since it's a bank fee. (As you know in real estate, there are two different APRs once all the fees/points are calculated.) The issue is, 1) if it's disclosed it makes it discrimination because it's not charged to every customer, 2) if it's not disclosed it's a violation of truth in lending because it's a bank fee and needs to be treated as interest. See the confusion? There are two requirements that run in contradiction to each other.
It's not that a finance customer (or sub-prime finance) would be charged more doc fee, double prep fee or anything like that. It's the bank fee that is tacked onto the deal.
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| 324 | leggestand
ID: 521181920
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 09:33
|
DC (312) - Thanks for the response to the carmax question. I have one car from carmax and one from a dealership. The plus of carmax - no haggle pricing. The minus of carmax - limited quality of customer service (My guess is if these sales persons were really good, they'd make more money at a dealer, and, hence, work at a dealer).
I really just wanted to hear your thoughts, so, don't stray off onto the carmax topic unless you have to. Thanks again.
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| 325 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 10:04
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In response DW, to your query re a policy to elimintae Administrative Fees:
1st...I've worked at various car dealerships in 2 states. (Iowa and Texas) In neither state, did ANY car dealership I know of, charge frt and prep as line items. Only a Doc Fee.
2nd...Motorcycle dealers charge these as line items, because of the difference in nature of the two businesses.
Now, what specifically are those differences?
On the window sticker to a car, is a line item add for shipping. No such line item to the MSRP for a motorcycle.
Cars come in on a transport, with gas, oil and fluids all topped off (except for gas. Theres maybe 2 gallons or so fo that in the tank.) And except for a few miscellaneaous items, cars are fully assembled. Motorcycles, as MCD pointed out) arrive in a totally different configuration. So, a prep or assembly charge needs to be applied.
Could we executer a new policy letter and waive admin fees from that point on?
Sure we could. But only if we were willing to absorb yet one more cost, without an offsetting revenue stream for it. Since we're not willing to do that, we're not going o initiate any such policy letter.
I've seen people drive 200 miles, because that dealer was $50 lower in price than we were. TWO-HUNDRED miles over $50! No, we cant w3aive those fees and then offset them through a change in our "bottom" price on a vehicle, because unless ALL dealers did it, we'd find ourselves at a severe disadvantage in the marketplace.
Earlier, you typed a scenario where "Mom" went through some phone calls and then went to the lowest qquoted price store, only to find a boatload of fees tacked on, so she left. Here's the error in that scenario...In practice? In reality? Mom doesnt leave. She buys there, because their price was lowest. The other two stores, with fewer fees and therefore a higher sale price (but lower out-the-door price)...never see the customer. Thats the reality of it.
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| 326 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 10:28
|
324/leggestand: Your comment about "lower quality customer service" is exactly what is happening in the industry.
If we read the posts between DWetzel and I about the salespeople's income, consider this. 8-9-10 years ago, these top guys (selling 25 cars a month) were making 9K a month instead of the 6K they are now. For the same effort they are being paid less because of 1) the publication of the invoice prices 2) the disclosure laws have created additional negotiating between the dealer and the customer.
Would you stay at a job that has made it harder on you and paying you 30% less for doing the same job? So, what happens to these guys? They either move up the ladder as a sale manager, leave for another dealership (luxury or high-line pre-owned) where they are still holding profit, or they leave the industry. Either way, they are replaced with less experienced people. You get what you pay for.
If I go to CarMax, or a lot of other dealers, I better have all my research complete because I'm not going to find too many experienced salespeople. However, if I go to Mercedes, BMW, etc., those guys know their stuff, the differences between their car and the competitor and truly 'advise' you about your purchase. The quality of the personnel is at these dealerships because they hold profit so they (you) can pay for the quality.
It's sort of the difference between going to Jiffy Lube or the Infiniti dealership for an oil change. Jiffy Lube is $25 but you sit in your car waiting for them to finish. The dealer is $40 but you either sit in their nice lounge, sipping Starbucks coffee, or get a loaner car (for free) and they wash your car before giving it back. You pay for the service if you want it and it has value to you.
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| 327 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 10:41
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from 316:
A significant perception of the car sales industry is that the car salesman (who is, ostensibly, in a position to know what his employer will accept) will make a deal with the purchaser, regarding price, trade-in value, whatever. Then it goes to the mysterious "Sales Manager", who is roughly equivalent to the Wizard of Oz as far as the customer is concerned. It's a common perception that the deal, which the salesman had agreed to, then gets changed behind the emerald curtain. ("I really want to do this deal, but the best my Sales Manager will let me do is _______".)
At this point, the customer is basically left there thinking "Wait a minute, we just spent all this time talking about X, Y, and Z, and now you are telling me you can't do that?" Whether this happens any more or not, I don't know.
At no dealership that I am aware of, is the Salesperson authorized to "approve" a deal. The salesperson, is there to help ensure that the customer is on the right vehicle. Thats the purpose of all their questions. So they can help guide you toward the vehicle that fulfills your needs AND your wants, vs just your wants. I cant tell you how often as a Salesman I'd be talking with a prospect as they were drooling over and playing touchy-feely with that sleek 2-door sportscar. Wanting to test drive it, asking about price, etc etc. Then I'd begin questioning them. Find out they have a wife and 3 kids at home. 2 of those kids in car seats and it was to be the family car. Sorry guy, the Mustang aint what you want. Well, it may be what you WANT, but your wife will slaughter you if yopu bring that home as a family car for 5 people. Once the salesperson gets you steered toward the right vehicle, then they become the negotioator on your behalf. I always tolds customers, and I was being utterly serious, ...at this point, I work for you. No sale, no commission. I'm out to get you as close to what you want, as I can....Then I worked to get an offer from that customer. Took that to the Sales Manager, and negotiated with him, trying to get him as close to your offer as I could. Then it was back and forth.
Now as for why it works this way? That Sales Manager is working maybe 8 deals at one time. He cant possibly sit with all 8 people and do business. The salespeople, are the go-betweens. One Sales Manager can only physically help one customer at a time. SO we have Salespeople, to ensure that virtually no customer is left unattended to, for an unreasonable length of time.
As for the salesperson knowing what the dealer will accept...they dont. Not if they have a GOOD Sales Manager. A good Manager, will sometimes (not necessarily often), accept a ludicrously lowball offer. JUST to make sure his salesman bring them EVERY offer, because they dont know what will be accepted. The only offer a salesperson has the "authority" to accept (if then even), is full price with no discounts.
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| 328 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:19
|
Ah Ha. I knew there was one I meant to get back to. The elusive Sales Manager.
Now that Sarge has beaten me to it, I can honestly say I don't think I can answer it any better, but I'll try to add to it a little. I've been a Sales Manager, and as GM of a small store I find myself wearing that hat again more often than I want to.
I instruct my sales people to not come to me without an offer from the customer. Plain and simple. Even if it's a ridiculous offer, bring me an offer. This is a tool to gage how serious a buyer is. I know I'm getting into dangerous territory here, so I'll use an example. If the customer is looking to buy 3 months from now when taxes come in, (and I don't know that) then the # I spend 1/2 hr getting for him is basically meaningless. A lot can change in 3 months. Financing offers, rebates from the manufacturer can go up or down or go away entirely.
Does that make sense?
So, What I'm saying is, when you are ready to buy, I will do my damndest to earn your business. Just please, like I said over and over last night. I'm not the one that shafted you the last time, so be nice and give me the benefit of the doubt and I'll take care of you.
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| 329 | DWetzel from work
ID: 3316412
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:37
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Quickie on 327 there: You can, of course, see the giant steaming pile of conflict of interest there, right?
The sales manager is paying you. Not me. The obvious presumption is that your JOB, is to get the person that is paying you the best deal that you can get THEM. (This is something else we real estate types have drummed into OUR heads. The phrase "fiduciary duty" comes up a lot.) And I'm pretty sure the average consumer sees it the same way.
Look at it this way: if you were working for ME, wouldn't you show me the cars on the other people's lots as well?
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| 330 | DWetzel from work
ID: 3316412
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:42
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And MC, I understand that three months from now the deal may not be there. I understand that if I walk into Best Buy to price a computer, the price may be different three months from now. Heck, they may not even have that computer any more. I get that.
It occurs to me that a lot of the actual problems that seem to arise have to do with financing. That's something I may want to get into in greater depth.
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| 331 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:47
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In reality DW, when I gave a customer a "today" price? I meant precisely that. They didnt buy and came back tomorrow? THAT "today" price was ALWAYS at least $100 higher then yesterdays. Come back again the next day? Its another $100.
In my mind...a today price is only meaningful, if in fact it is for TODAY. And I held to that, and I held my Sales Managers to it as well.
re Fiduciary Duty...the salesperson has no such "duty". They have no authority to accept/decline an offer, so they thus hold no such obligations. As for showing you cars on another lot? They dont have access to them, so they can hardly do that either.
I for one, welcome your questions re financing.
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| 332 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:53
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Interesting, the sales manager concept. That the sales manager pays the salespersons. It does make a double sorta negotiation, between the customer and the salesperson and the salesperson and the sales manager. My initial thinking, which is naive and perhaps flat out wrong, is "why does there need to be a sales manager" Is that role still relevant? Or, why does the sales manager have to pay the salesperson? Maybe the sales manager just supervises and approves deals, but does not pay the salesperson, the owner does...?
I wish I knew more about some of the real exact specifics of how this works with some of my clients here at an investment bank. The salespersons, traders, and the deskheads (or trading managers). From what I know, the salespersons negotiate a price with a client (big company). Their goal is to get the client the most attractive price. They then go to the trader and ask the trader if he/she can make a trade at that bid or offer. However, the trader's goal is to maximize the spread (diff b/w bid and offer) to maximize the profit for the company (us). So, the trader will push for a higher price for a sell or a lower price for a buy, which is somewhat at odds to the salesperson's motives, who is trying to get the most attractive/competitive price to the client. The salesperson and trader have partially conflicting needs. They don't need deskhead approval, however, unless the amount of $ involved exceeds their limits (which is a rare-ish exception).
I only have surface level knowledge of this situation, but I am trying to provide an analogy to, big pic-wise, assess the value-add of the sales manager in the current auto dealership context (times have changed, so is the salesmanager to salesperson relationship still the right one?).
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| 333 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 11:56
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Wonderful. Financing it is. That's where I'm happiest, and at my best. I would happily give up my GM spot to be back in the box full time. Ask away.
re 329. Valid point about the conflict of interest, but please tell me you got some value out of that post? It was very well stated IMO.
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| 334 | DWetzel from work
ID: 3316412
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 12:27
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331: See, Sarge, that's where people get ticked at the car dealer and start screaming epithets regarding your heritage and your mother's choice of footwear.
If your prices change, the customer completely understands. If I could get a 7% interest rate yesterday, but the interest rates have moved and now the best I can do is 7 1/2%, well, that's unfortunate, but that's a marketplace issue.
YOUR costs today, for the vehicle that is in your lot, having been prepared already (for a "sunk" cost that you have already paid, or know exactly what it'll be), assembled in the case of motorcycles (for a sunk cost), etc. You don't even have to spend any more time today and yesterday combined than you would have if we did this all yesterday.
The ONLY thing that has changed between yesterday and today is that you're ticked that I left and came back the next day. Essentially, you're trying to charge me a $100 "I didn't buy it when the salesman wanted me to" fee.
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| 335 | DWetzel from work
ID: 3316412
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 12:42
|
Quick starting question re: finance while our Christmas party gets started at work:
How many lenders does a typical car dealer work with in obtaining the best rates for their customers?
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| 336 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 13:09
|
oh, boy. we're going to be here all weekend now. :)
There are different banks that have different 'sweet spots', just like in real estate.
As with any lending, there are several factors each bank uses. Collateral (what is the car worth vs. what they want to borrow), credit, stability and income (more sepecifically 'debt to income ratio'). It works very similar to real estate lending (except there are no collateral based lenders).
Once these factors are determined, the finance manager will know 1) which bank has programs for the consumer's situation, and 2) the current buying habits of each bank's loan officer.
On average, the dealership will have 10-20 banks depending on 1) what type of vehicle they sell, 2) the types of customers they do business with, and 3) the price of the vehicles they sell. This will vary from dealer to dealer.
For instance, a BMW dealer can live with 4-5 banks. Their captive BMW Finance, BMW Lease, major bank and local bank. A Honda store will need more banks, especially if they see a lot of 'near prime' or 'sub prime' customers. They need 1) finance managers familiar with these deals and 2) banks that have programs for this type of customer.
However, the bank with the best 'rate' may not necessarily be the best bank for your situation. For instance. We took my father-in-law to the GM dealer to get him a Yukon. They had that 0% or $4000 rebate program going at the time. He had a large downpayment (insurance check from totalled vehicle) and was going to finance the rest and wanted to pay it off early (doesn't like payments). So, instead of the 0%, the finance manager suggested (and I agreed), take the $4000 rebate and finance at "this" bank at 4.9%. Since he 1) was not financing a lot and 2) was going to pay it off within the year, this situation saved him more than the 0% would have. We would have not thought about that option but it was the best option because of the total savings. Was it the best rate he qualified for? No but it was the best for his situation.
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| 337 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 13:20
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RE 334: I certainly understand your ocntention, to a point. Do you also see mine? A today price, HAS to be "today", or whats the point?
If you walk into K-Mart for ex, and look at say tents. One is mismarked at $5 when its suppoded to be $55. You dont buy it but come back tomorrow, only to find that they have corrected the price. You dont think you're going to get it for $5 do you? You would have yesterday, but not today. Or if the sale ended yesterday, you dont honestly expect K-Mart to honor the sale price, when the sale is over. Right?
I've had prices change by as much as $1500 overnight, when certain rebates/incentives ended. We'd tell the consumer the program was ending today and we'd not be able to honor the quote tomorrow. They'd choose not to believe us and then come back tomorrow wanting that same price. Sorry, no can do.
The ONLY thing that has changed between yesterday and today is that you're ticked that I left and came back the next day. Essentially, you're trying to charge me a $100 "I didn't buy it when the salesman wanted me to" fee.
As far as I'm personally concerned, when I gave a today price...thats precisely what I meant...today. The consumer has gotten used to believing they could leave, come back at their leisure and still get that special discounted price. Well, to be fair to the consumer who didnt leave but bought, I owe it to them to mean today, when I say today. IOPW, If you bought at the "today" price, how upset you would as a consumer be, if I gave someone else the today price...3 days later?
Re number of lenders...
Truth is, there is no such thing a sa "typical" dealership. I've worked in stores selling 225-250 cars/m. I've worked in stores selling 20, stores selling 60. Normally, FWIW, the more cars a store sells in a month on average, the more sources they will have available to them.
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| 338 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 13:26
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re: 335 I'll let DC handle the car side. As for the MC side.....I sure wish I had the car sides options!
1st and foremost, please understand that MC, ATV, or PWC's are playtoys. They are not easy to finance. I can go finance a 100K house easier than I can qualify for a 2000.00 dirt bike loan. Sad, but true. Why? Because it's a toy. Also because you can't hide your house in your buddy's garage so the repo guy can't find it. It's a want instead of a need. Think about it like this. Let's say you have a rotten couple of months and money gets tight. Which payments are you going to make 1st? Your house payment, your car payment, your power bill, and food. The phone bill, credit card bills, even the insurance bill, and without a doubt the bill for the playtoy are going to trickle down to the bottom of your priority list.
So, where the car guys may have 20 lenders, and can get deep sub prime bought, I have 2 major ones in house and then local credit unions and hopefully a friendly bank. And NONE of them are going to buy an auto adjusted 600 credit score on a bike.
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| 339 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 13:34
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338 illustrates precisely why Harley-Davidsons finance arm is in trouble these days. HD has a LONG history of buying "deep". That is, they showed a tendency toward approving someone to buy a Harley, that couldnt have gotten financed on a car. Why? Ego frankly. They figured if the customers finances got tight, they'd still pay for that Harley in their driveway. They've since learned otherwise.
Motorcycle repo rates are on the order of 5 times those of cars. Motorcycles totalled in accidents, run an astounding rate, and I've not been able to locate definitive information on those. HUGE numbers of motorcycle riders, have either no insurance at all, or liability only. The risk to a lender on a motorcycle loan, of that loan defaulting, are astronomical when compared to a car loans exposure. Therefore, the interest rates are approx double that of a car loan, and approval is substantially more difficult to obtain.
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| 340 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 13:36
|
Another big difference between MC's and cars. The financing itself. Most car loans are installment contracts. 98% of in house MC loans are done with an incentivized revolving loan. (Credit card)
Current promo.... 8.99 for 24 months with a minimum monthly payment of as low as $49.00 a month. The monthly payment is based on your total amount financed. 0-5K = $49.00, 5-7500 = $69.00, 7500-10K = $99.00 and so on.
At the end of the 24 month promo period, your APR goes to 13.99 and you payment goes to 1% of the balance.
Now, just like ANY credit card, you can pay for this bike forever if you choose to. The whole point of this program is to take advantage of the low payment, send them as much as you can afford to send and pay it off quickly. Customers LOVE that low payment, and I do my very best to explain to them the hazzards of just sending that minimum payment in.
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| 341 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 15:47
|
We really aren't ALL bad.
http://dealersedge.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=EE9BD46E760D4685A57CEAE428C8D8C3
According to an Associated Press report, Billion Automotive is covering half the cost of the $80,000 needed to charter a plane to bring the 147th Field Artillery Unit, B Battery home from training.
The 185 soldiers will spend four days with their families over the Christmas holiday. “They have a break in their training schedule. It was just a question of how to get them home,” said Lt.Col. John Holter, who recently left command of the unit.
The 147th has spent two months training in Mississippi for an upcoming yearlong deployment to Iraq.
Car dealer Dave Billion said he heard about the fundraising campaign and knew bake sales weren’t going to cover much of the cost. “It’s a pretty expensive proposition to bring them home,” he said. “The timing around Christmas and knowing people that have family members, we just felt it was a way for our Billion Automotive family to say thanks to the troops and their families.”
Georgia Holt said fundraisers will lessen, if not totally remove, the financial burden of allowing her sons, Ty and Bret Holt, to eat oyster stew at home this Christmas. Ms. Holt said people are pitching in from across the state with penny challenges, spaghetti feeds, silent auctions, rummage sales and bake sales.
“It’s always very important on holidays like Christmas to be with family. That’s what the holidays are about,” she said.
The Guard soldiers were sent to Camp Shelby, Miss., in October to train, and expect to leave for Iraq in late December or early January. Convoy security is their mission. Lt. Col. Holter said the soldiers were fortunate to have attracted the attention of a man with the means and desire to make the trip home happen.
“To get to see your family at Christmas right before you leave, it means the world to those guys,” he said.
Kudos to Dave Billion- just another example of the big hearts of those in the auto dealer community.
Help our military in foreign lands to Phone Home this Christmas!
Many thousands of our military men and women are in foreign lands this Christmas - you may not be able to bring them home for the holidays, but you can help them reach out by telephone to their loved-ones.
Help us support the USO’s Operation Phone Home. All of the money contributed to this program will go toward putting pre-paid international phone cards in the hands of our troops in foreign lands - every dollar. Please click on the USO logo on the upper right-hand side of this page - or look for the USO logo at www.dealersedge.com.
DealersEdge readers have been generous so far, but it is only five days ‘til Christmas. Time is short, but you still can make a difference. Please be generous and please do it now.
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| 342 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 21:48
|
I bet Walmart will change the industry eventually.
or the next mega-conglomerate.
link
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| 344 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:31
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wal-mart tried selling cars about 10 years ago. they bombed---HUGE.
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| 345 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:32
|
Really? A national multi-billion dollar push? I must have missed that.
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| 346 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:37
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They ran a test market of it several years ago. They found that it didnt fit their "busness model". IOW, there are sufficient dealers out there thay wally couldnt "corner" the market via bulk purchases and they couldnt bully wholesalers into caving into their pricing demands. Whole experiment lasted a couple of months.
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| 347 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:47
|
Eh. One thing is for certain, things change. I'm sure Ma Bell never envisioned cell phones. Been thinking the past few days that car dealerships in their current state seem ripe for a revolution. That's all. I know you hate Wally_world, but i'l et there's a consumer market for cheap Chinese cars they could service if they wanted to drop a few billion.
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| 348 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:50
|
CarMax snuck in Chrysler's back door by buying up a bunch of chrysler/jeep/dodge dealers and consolidating them into their 'supercenters'.
They were going for the same bulk purhcase discount approach and Chysler slammed the door on the rest of their purchases out of demand from their dealers.
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| 349 | DealerCompliance
ID: 351123160
Thu, Dec 20, 2007, 22:54
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347: the ma bell comment. It's kind of funny that all of it has rolled back around. The government broke up ATT because they were a monopoly. ATT was only long distance, now look at them.
Most of the baby bells are back under their roof. They have DSL, cell phone, long distance, local service and cable.
IMHO, it shows that free markets will trump government intervention.
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| 350 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Dec 21, 2007, 10:48
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2002 Effort by wally to enter the car market...failed
same effort, additional info
Simple truth is, the ROI on auto sales, isnt what traditional retailers are looking for. They've "been there-done that" and goto ut of it when returns failed to meet expectations. I dont see any reason to view this latest exploration any differently.
As for "cheap" cars....anyone seen a Yugo lately?
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| 351 | MCDealer
ID: 4011291810
Fri, Dec 21, 2007, 13:18
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re 347.....cheap Chinese cars. Not saying it couldn't happen, but I doubt very seriously it will. For so many reasons, but 1 thing I would like to point out.....Anyone here remember Yugo's?
IMHO, cheap-o cars will go the same way the Yugo's did.
The other thing, that I deal with on almost a daily basis, especially in January..... There are hundreds of secondary manufacturers out there putting out cheap-o youth ATV's. You can find them online for $599.00 all day long. Guys, there's a reason the "big 5" major ATV manufacturers sell their youth ATV's for 1799+.
Folks come in, freak at the 1799, go buy a 599 one instead online and they're back here a couple of weeks later looking for parts and service. Except....parts are not available for them and there isn't a service tech anywhere (that I've seen or heard of) that will work on them. Those units are disposable, plain and simple. If it breaks, and it will, toss it in the dumpster and start over.
OK, I've been trying to post this for almost 2 hrs now, so I'm going to quit while I'm at a half decent stopping point. I'll be happy to expand on this as time allows if anyone has question.
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| 352 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Dec 21, 2007, 14:46
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36 yr old buyer puts 4k down in late July and by Christmas, his bike has been repo'd by the bank. THAT, is why its so difficult to get motorcycle/atv/jet-ski/boat/snowmobile financing.
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| 353 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Dec 21, 2007, 18:38
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File this under: Advantage of dealer financing...
Customer plunked $5,000 down last year on a $25,000 custom bike. Marginal credit, got the Credit Union with whom I have a 4 year history, to do the deal for him. 7 months ago the guys company sends him overseas to work. He leaves his folks with instructions for his finances. They didnt want him to get the bike (guy is 30 yrs old) so they quit making the bike payment. Fella comes home to find his bike loan 6 months in arrears and Dad has told the CU to FO 2 or 3 times. They've begun repo action. Guy calls me to see if I can help. I get my Rep in here and she gets on the horn with their collections people. I have my customer on another line. 45 minutes later, I've "brokered" an agreement whereby he has until Mon noon to make the loan current and the CU will cease repo action and report the whole thing to the bureau as an "error". Customer tells me it will be done before the sun sets today. If by noon Mon he hasnt, deals off.
We in the dealerships can sometimes work these things out, solely because of the volume of business we send to a given lender and the inherent relationship that kind of working familiarity brings. I'm inclined to believe that THIS customer, has no problem with the $300 my dealerhip got paid for negotiationg/writing that original loan. Worth that and then some to him.
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| 354 | MCDealer
ID: 76442923
Fri, Dec 21, 2007, 20:37
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Merry Christmas everyone. I expect to be swamped at work tomorrow (fingers crossed) and then I'm on vacation till the first of the year. I wish all of you and yours a very happy holiday!
except for maybe.......nah! ; ) Just kiddin.......
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