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0 Subject: Bush impeachment???

Posted by: James K Polk
- [51010719] Thu, Mar 06, 2003, 13:45

NRO article: Impeaching Bush -- Congressional Dems ready to avenge

Now, as the country braces for war, some liberal Democrats in Congress are preparing to introduce articles of impeachment against Bush and perhaps members of his Cabinet, according to lawmakers and congressional aides.

Over the past few weeks, some of the most liberal members of the House have discussed the possibility of impeaching Bush. Talks have intensified this week, lawmakers say, largely because war with Iraq appears imminent.

At least one senior House Democrat has produced a draft impeachment resolution. It accuses Bush, Vice President Dick Cheney and Attorney General John Ashcroft of more than a dozen "high crimes and misdemeanors," including bombing civilians in Afghanistan and constitutional violations in the domestic war on terrorism.
Hadn't heard about this ...
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370Boxman
ID: 337352111
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 09:19
Why do you bother coming to the Political Forum? I cannot remember a single post from you of any depth. On the other hand, when the topics of televisions or HD DVD v. Blu Ray appears, you expound with dissertation-level eloquence. Hey, that's fine, most people don't follow politics with anything more than a passing interest, few people can raise a strong argument on political topics. So, why do you visit?

I explained to Toral, who quit these forums by the way because he got sick of the lefties around here, that I do not have the time or the inclination to put forth a masters thesis on a political topic.

I would argue that your little cartoons don't do jack squat in that department either, so why do you bother posting?

What does Tree's little b!tch sniping do? Mith's bullying? Why do they bother posting?

Do you guys really think conservatives have left this board en masse because you are correct?

I do love helping people out when they've got a purchasing decision of some sort to make or some other type of issue. It's in my nature to share what I've learned in life and try and help people. Unlike this specific forum, people don't really resort to name calling and gang banging tactics when you're talking about shopping on Black Friday or debating Blu Ray vs. HD-DVD. The stock market discussions are really more informative than traditional debating. Whatever strategy Nerveclinic or whomever uses, as long as it works for them and makes them $$$, I think that's outstanding. I have a particular road I follow that's done very well for me so I don't mind sharing it and seeing what I can learn from someone like Nerve.
371Baldwin
ID: 4610171922
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 10:43
It's pretty hard to have an intelligent debate with an ideological group committed to the tactic of inciting the mob to boo to drown out intelligent debate.

They've been leaning on that crutch since guillotines were set up in French public squares and the term 'politcal left' was invented. The few conservatives who pop up regularly and attempt to offer them a fair debate have been wasting their time.

What purpose booing to an empty stage serves them is anyone's guess. I would suggest it's the left figuring that if they are incapable of an intelligent debate then no one gets to have an intelligent debate. Only fair way to equalize things for the mentally deficient sheep and equality trumps truth for them every time.

372sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 11:01
outed:


For full disclosure purposes, I am writing a book, which will be a humerous and thought provoking look at Liberals and Liberalism. One of my assumptions will be Liberals do not have the ability to dissect the truth. I truly believe Liberals have a medical condition that hinders their ability to process information.

This is a simple exercise to help prove my point. You can not read an article an tell whether it is fact or opinion.

I will be writing the book with a friend, so my semi-literate ramblings will be put into a more coherent form.


Jag = AC
373sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 11:14
re 356...Box...show me one post, one time, where I have called for or endorsed, Federal "Price Controls". Either show it to me, or quit claiming that I have done so. (Hint: I havent. What I HAVE called for, is some form of wage increase based on longevity or profit-sharing for the hourly workers. As I have said many tiomes in the past, the problem to me isnt the minimum wage, its the fact that too many employers KEEP hourly workers at the minimum wage, even after 5, 10, 15 years of continuous employment. If a worker is worth keeping on the payroll for 10 years, then they are worth paying more than minimum wage.)
374Perm Dude
ID: 251012710
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 11:34
It's pretty hard to have an intelligent debate with an ideological group committed to the tactic of inciting the mob to boo to drown out intelligent debate.

ROFL! The party of the Swiftboaters, Terry Schiavo's "rescuers" and "the institution of marriage is in peril" are all about quiet and thougtful debate, eh?

Don't look now, Baldwin, but the Republican boat has left the dock. When granted virtually unchecked power to institute policy based upon their political philosophy, Republicans in Washington actually act like the worst things they say their political opponents would do.

I suspect that many otherwise intelligent Republicans have quit because their party has abandoned them. You, on the other hand, insist upon fighting the 60's again.
375boikin
ID: 59831214
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 11:48
i have been busy and not been reading as much, but i totally agree with boxman in post 370 and have to say some of the technology and stock threads have been the best to read and most of political threads of recent have become pretty boring and one sided.
376Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 11:53
It's pretty hard to have an intelligent debate with an ideological group committed to the tactic of inciting the mob to boo to drown out intelligent debate.



Pat Buchanan's article on TownHall today

Response to Buchanan's article by poster True Conservative:

Pat and Other Idiot Liberal Posters
So Iraq cannot be "democratized" ... do any of you fools remember the Iraqis ENTHUSIASTICALLY voted in real elections for the first time ... cannot be democratized indeed. Would the world be better off, not to mention the people of the Middle East if their were more democracies there? Can you idiots and Pat answer that one?

In a world where 9/11 is just the beginning, you morons keep up this charade that isolationism can work ... when a nuclear missile can hit us in less than 30 minutes; let's disengage and take our chances. What incredible idiodicy! Bush makes more right choices in a morning than Pat and his acolytes will make in a lifetime!

I won't even comment on the fantastic stupidity of the assertion that Lenin, Stalin, and Hitler were a direct consequence of Wilson's policies ... following something in history does not make that a CAUSE of said events; but I'm afraid that's the extent of the intellectual firepower of Pat and his ever mindless posters!


This is a typical response to a Buchanan article. So, you're right, it's pretty hard to have an intelligent debate with an ideological group committed to the tactic of inciting the mob to boo to drown out intelligent debate. The same holds true for today's radical brand of conservatism which will gladly eat their own if they dare stray from the "Libs are traitors" rhetoric.

377Tree
ID: 3533298
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 13:37
Box -

Do you guys really think conservatives have left this board en masse because you are correct?

no, i don't. i think they left this board, slowly, over the past several years, because there was no point in defending the indefensible. from the get-go - be it Bush's (s)election in 2000 to his run up to the war, many of us in the left were giving pretty specific warnings - and many of them actually did come to pass.

but that's not why those on the Right have left this board. They left this board, like they left their party - or, rather, their party left them.

This is not your father's Republican party. heck, it's not even your older brother's Republican party.
378Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:15
Actually I don't agree with Tree there at all.

Boxman

Numerous regulars who were valuable contributers left the forum for various reasons.

Madman: left around the time he got married. Shortly after he ceased contributing to the blog he helped establish and extensively contributed to.

Steve Houpt: I don't know why Steve left.

Both of these people were active for years discussing politics with Biliruben, Tree, Seattle Zen, me and other lefties. While debates were not always civil, they kept coming back for years and to my recollection didn't cite any specific problem with "liberals" here.

Toral: despite your claim that he "quit these forums... because he got sick of the lefties around here" actually left over much more general frustration with the deteriorating quality of posts here. Two prominant pieces of evidence that his issue was with overall quality and not just that of liberals: 1. The only new regular contributers of the past several years are both conservatives (term applied very loosely) - Boxman and Jag. 2. Post 210 in this thread. While he soon after apologized to "anyone he may have offended" he certainly didn't take back any of the harsh things he said about your and Jag's contributions to the forum, either.



And of course there are an equal number of formerly prominant and valuable non-rightist posters who have also departed:

Jame K Polk: left at around the same time as Houpt.

Jazz Dreamers: posted less and less frequently over time and hasn't been seen here in a long while.

Soxzeitgeist: same as Jazz Dreamers, though I believe we'll still occasionally see him pop his head in from time to time.
379Jag
ID: 14828255
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:19
Lying to congress (WMD; warrentless wiretaps), outting a covert spy, sheer incompetency (poor Iraq war plan and lame execution), warrantless wire-tapping, manipulating elections (bogus voter fraud; US Attorney scandal), exploiting the vague "war on terror" to justify Guantanamo, suspension of heabeus corpus, subverting the Geneva Conventions, failing to supply subpoena'd doc's, excess authority of the executive branch, fiscal irresponsibility in military spending (both in terms of budgeting and also spending on protection and contractors), very high degrees of nepotism in choosing cabinet members, no-bid contracts to war-based firms that have not accounted for large fiscal losses, and ultimately a war for oil based on false pretenses (first a non-existent threat to the U.S. and then based on our compassion for those under the rule of Saddam).

I said I would dissect this paragraph and point out the errors, so here we go.
Lying to congress (WMD; warrentless wiretaps)

There is absolutely no proof the Bush administration lied about WMD, at worse they got misinformation and the general belief is Saddam wanted us to believe he had WMD. The wiretaps issue is a point of order for the courts, Bush's interpretation is he can wiretap non US citizens. I hope the courts do not change this policy, it may be our greatest asset for fighting terrorism. To even mention this items for grounds of impeach shows pure flash over substance.

outting a covert spy
Someone misinformed could bring this point up, but everyone on this forum knows there was no malice to the outting and the offender was one of the most Liberal friendly members in the administration. It was a poorly kept secret of little relevance. She was not a field operator and arguably married to a gloryhound seeking the spotlight. To bring this item up for grounds for impeachment is just plain silly and disingenuous. Walk points like these are not even debatable unless you just want to argue, I know you more intelligent than to believe these are impeachable offenses and you are just playing 'Gotcha' games.



If incompetence was a crime Jimmy Carter and every Liberal politician would be under the jail.
again, this is silly and not worthy of you.
I am sure with foresight, Bush would have done things differently, but I truly believe if Liberals possessed time-travel ability, they would still screw up. They will always try to fit that square peg in the round hole for as long as they live.

manipulating elections (bogus voter fraud0
This is a bit of joke and I know accusations have flown around, but none at Bush himself. The most noted voter fraud offenders are A.C.O.R.N. Why even mention this unless you are just looking for filler to make your charges longer. Again, not even worthy of debate.

exploiting the vague "war on terror" to justify Guantanamo

How would you word that for impeachment?

fiscal irresponsibility in military spending (both in terms of budgeting and also spending on protection and contractors)

There has never been fiscal responsibility, ever by any party at any time.

I could rip ever arguement here, but come on, is this worthy of a lengthy debate. I don't think the posters here believe there is grounds for impeachment. We could impeach every politician in office with nonsense like this, from the lowest Alderman to the President.




380walk
ID: 7952415
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:20
I dunno. I think there's more folks from the right side who openly and maybe for fun frequently bash "liberals" as having [fill in the blank negative characterstics,] and that's not intellectual discourse. Jag, you are a prime culprit here. I think then, in defense, some of us "liberals" counter by attacking the said generalizers and that heightens the tensions cos we are making it direct, to the individual. However, I try not to make blanket generalizations about "conservatives" or "republicans," but since 2000, focus my intensities towards politicians in the republican party (the party sorta responsible for the way things are in our country right now) making policy decisions. I defintely spew anti-Cheney and anti-Bush sentiment, but I think they have mucked things up on several fronts, and I don't think it's just "liberals" who feel that way, and I don't think the muck-up's are slight.

So, to some extent, I do suspect that Tree is correct that it's hard to defend the indefensible, but I'm also thinking that when one is aligned to certain political party, and that party who is governing consistently makes some big and erroneous decisions, it's very difficult to turn against one's own hard-grained beliefs and loyalties. I guess there's always the two sides thing, and that there's really a firm belief that Bush/Cheney have really done nothing wrong, and that they have helped the country, and are protecting the country. I say this not believing it myself, but coming off of an intense debate with a buddy who is smart, informed guy who believes just that: that our country has not been attacked since 9/11, that national security comes first, that we cannot take chances, that the civil liberties traded off for national security are not really felt by the average joe, that Saddam was really bad and had to go, that the war cannot be judged for another 10 years, and that he'd rate Cheney "neutral" in terms of his effectiveness. I disagreed on all of these points, opinions, etc., but I guess it shows that there's various viewpoints.

I'm incredulous that anyone could really think that the Iraq war was necessary, and that we cannot definitely conclude that it has made things worse in the world and worse for our national security. On the other allegations that the Admin has had much cronyism, some corruption, outsourced too much, engaged in very intense partisan politics (Rove tactics, Plame, Alberto Gonzales' US Attorney thing, driven up the debt too much), the responses were "not true, it's Democrats playing hardball." I just don't think so.
381Perm Dude
ID: 251012710
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:32
Bush's interpretation is he can wiretap non US citizens

Actually, Bush believes he can wiretap anyone, citizen or not, domestically-original call or not, without a warrant.

Someone misinformed could bring this point up, but everyone on this forum knows there was no malice to the outting and the offender was one of the most Liberal friendly members in the administration. It was a poorly kept secret of little relevance. She was not a field operator and arguably married to a gloryhound seeking the spotlight. To bring this item up for grounds for impeachment is just plain silly and disingenuous. Walk points like these are not even debatable unless you just want to argue, I know you more intelligent than to believe these are impeachable offenses and you are just playing 'Gotcha' games.

It is hard to choose one of the many mistatements being made in this nugget. Pretty much everything in this statement is wrong.

-Malice: No one here mentioned "malice." This is a red herring word. Yet, we know that the outing was made as a direct response to Joe Wilson's NYT article.

-poorly-kept secret: This was either a secret or not (it was never "poorly-kept"). It became a "not secret" by the administration.

-"not a field operator": This is a lie Simply repeating the right-wing talking point doesn't make it truthful. From the article above:

Yesterday's story about Plame's covert status is based upon the CIA's own internal documents which make clear she was covert. That conclusion is consistent with the initial 2003 determination of the CIA that she was covert, the subsequent confirmation from the current CIA Director (handpicked by Bush and Cheney) that she was covert, which in turn was confirmed by Plame herself when testifying under oath, all of which led the Republican federal prosecutor to emphatically state this in court.

-"arguably married to a gloryhound": I think you meant "married to an arguably gloryhound" or simply "married to a gloryhound." No one is making an argument that she wasn't married to Joe Wilson.

:)
382Jag
ID: 14828255
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:35
Prosecute Armitage then.
383walk
ID: 7952415
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:35
Hi Jag, I cross-posted #380 with your #379, so my post is not in response to your #379, so here goes:

Ultimately, I don't think you refuted any of the allegations I provided, but they have been discussed at length in separate individual threads anyway. You pretty much just summarily dismiss them as "not worthy, a joke, not genuine, beneath me, a filler, not even debatable," etc.

How could you possibly know that Plame was not outted in malice or was not a field operator? How could anyone know that?

Incompetency surely applies cos impeachment includes "undermining our national security," and I think a poorly planned, executed and bogus war has undermined our national security (e.g. we have far fewer defenses at home; our military is taxed and not ready in the event we had to go to war with a real enemy)

IMO, the leader is accountable for the behaviors of those he or she hires. From the war in Iraq, to Katrina, to the US Attorneys, to everything else mentioned, it adds up to poor leadership. I'll then gladly accept one or more of Cheney/Bush's "crimes or misdemeanors" as literally the excuse to get them out of power. They are poor leaders. Poor leaders should be fired; it's not that big of a deal. Happens all the time. You can have your Jimmy Carter. We can go back to the future and you can impeach and convict him. Fine by me. I don't even know what he did that was so bad, but if he did stuff as bad as these two, then I'd say it's same standard (that the sum total of his policies and actions, including subverting the constitution and 8 gzillion signing exceptions). Whatever. It's not a personal thing against Bush & Cheney; just like I feel we are a country that is losing ground, losing stature, losing credibility, losing respect, losing $ value, losing fuel, and just LOSING. They are losers. I don't want my country to be a loser. I like my country. I So, get rid of the managers. I want my country to be well-run.
384sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:42
Lying to congress (WMD; warrentless wiretaps)

There is absolutely no proof the Bush administration lied about WMD, at worse they got misinformation and the general belief is Saddam wanted us to believe he had WMD. The wiretaps issue is a point of order for the courts, Bush's interpretation is he can wiretap non US citizens. I hope the courts do not change this policy, it may be our greatest asset for fighting terrorism. To even mention this items for grounds of impeach shows pure flash over substance.


Numerous Intel Analysts have stated that they were directed to word their findings in such-n-such a way so as to support the contention of WMDs at best, and to not dispute such a contention at worst.

Specifics escape me atm, but recollection seems that many of these came to light, when Bolton was nominated as US Representative to the UN.


As for the wiretaps. Noone I know of disuputes the authority to tap foreign suspects. However, DOMESTIC lines have been subject as well, and this was done without getting a warrant via the FISA court as required by Federal Law. Bush is on record as stating that HE decides when and if he needs a warrant. Thereby admitting, that he did so without seeking the courts permission, even though the law allows him to get such a warrant AFTER the fact!! He STILL declined to do so.

outting a covert spy
Someone misinformed could bring this point up, but everyone on this forum knows there was no malice to the outting and the offender was one of the most Liberal friendly members in the administration. It was a poorly kept secret of little relevance. She was not a field operator and arguably married to a gloryhound seeking the spotlight. To bring this item up for grounds for impeachment is just plain silly and disingenuous. Walk points like these are not even debatable unless you just want to argue, I know you more intelligent than to believe these are impeachable offenses and you are just playing 'Gotcha' games.


Gee your Honor...I only stole $50 from that bank, so its no big deal. YOUR interpretation of how valuable an asset so-and-so was/is, (or of how much/little relevance) is not relevant to the case law. Subverting US Intelligence assets, is I believe a treasonous act?


385Jag
ID: 14828255
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:56
I can't believe people bring up Katrina for Republican incompetence. The Democrat Mayor and Governor have to go down in history as the most incompetent politicians of all time. Take the California fires for example, many of the politician would like financial aid , but no other part of the Federal Government. I live in Florida and we hurricane diasters yearly and the local response is amazing, the Federal Government would be in the way here for first responding, just give us some FEMA mney and get the hell out of the way. Talk about criminal, the Governor of Louisianna and the Mayor of New Orleans could not have done a worse job and this is the type of people you want leading the country! Many exaggerate the problems of our country to further their own agenda and say it couldn't be any worse, it can be worse, much worse.
386Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:58
Heckofa job Brownie.
387Jag
ID: 14828255
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 15:59
Unless Bush told Armitage to oust Plame, all your arguements are erroneous.
388walk
ID: 7952415
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:00
Hey Jag. I brought it up as part of the pattern of incompetence. I am not the only one who has indicated in this nation that the federal gov't did not do a good job in response (and in addition to the state and city gov'ts) to the Katrina disaster. Others have also argued that a lack of national guard troops due to deployment in Iraq along with the cronyism appointment of an inexperienced and inappropriate federal disaster supervisor, Michael Brown, by Bush, contributed to the failed federal response. These allegations are not stretches, Jag.
389Perm Dude
ID: 251012710
Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:11
all your arguements are erroneous.

Uh, #278 is about Cheney, not Bush.
391Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:16
PD, Are saying Cheney ordered Armitage to oust Plame?
392Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:18
I worked for FEMA, I know the role FEMA plays, if you want to change the role for FEMA fine, but not during the middle of a diaster. I am not sure you can find a system to idiot proof an incompetent Mayor and Governor. Local Governments are more familiar with the logistics of their area, it is a scary thought the Federal Government taking charge, here in Florida, after a hurricane.
393Perm Dude
      ID: 251012710
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:22
No. I don't think Armitage was the source. He might have been ordered to fess up, however, as part of a pattern of coverups by the Vice President's office.

And Novak, of course, refuses to say his source. An odd thing for a reporter to hold onto the name of hi source when the "source" comes out himself. Odd, unless Armitage isn't actually the source.
394Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:30
PD, I don't think those remarks would hold up well at an impeachment hearing, nor do the Democrats want the incompetence of their brethen, during Katrina, rehashed.
395Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:38
It was during Katrina that I developed a strong dislike for Pelosi. I remember after a meeting with the President, she recounted, when she addressed the problem about FEMA to President he responded, "What problems". Pelosi, immediately ran to press and called the President dangerous for those comments. Did she address what the problems were or how to fix them? No, she ran and played politics during a crisis. As far as I know, no Democrat has addressed the changed role FEMA should play after a natural diaster.
396boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 16:47
Jag dont worry the dem governor of LA lost to republican because of katrina. i think people relized that both sides failed there.
397Perm Dude
      ID: 251012710
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 17:02
It was during Katrina that I developed a strong dislike for Pelosi

Nonsense. Your dislike began as soon as you realized she was a Democrat.
398Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 17:03
Bush failed as a leader. I am not sure much could have been done on the Federal level, but he should of been on the frontline and atleast given the appearance he was on the job. He is the worse public relations President since Nixon.
399Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 17:04
But it wasn't a stong dislike.
400Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 17:05
or strong even
401Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 18:17
I can't believe people bring up Katrina for Republican incompetence.

and

it is a scary thought the Federal Government taking charge, here in Florida, after a hurricane.

For the record, no one is citing the federal Katrina response as an example of Republican incompetance. But that you see it that way is telling.

Anyway, if you worked for FEMA you might know that it is their job to coordinate disaster relief when a local government is overwhelmed. The scope of the Katrina disaster was clearly enough to overwhelm even competant state and city governments. The Red Cross announced weeks before the storm hit that New Orleans was not capable of a city-run eevacuation. Governor Blanco declared a state of emergency on Friday, 8/26. The storm made landfall early Monday 8/29.

I have no idea what tasks you performed for FEMA in your employment with that particular agency but since you stated that you don't know what could have been done on a federal level here is what the bipartisan Congressional committee assigned with assessing the response to Katrina found:
Critical elements of the National Response Plan were executed late, ineffectively, or not at all
 It does not appear the President received adequate advice and counsel from a senior disaster professional.
 Given the well-known consequences of a major hurricane striking New Orleans, the Secretary should have designated an Incident of National Significance no later than Saturday, two days prior to landfall, when the National Weather Service predicted New Orleans would be struck by a Category 4 or 5 hurricane and President Bush declared a federal emergency.
 The Secretary should have convened the Interagency Incident Management Group on Saturday, two days prior to landfall, or earlier to analyze Katrinas potential consequences and anticipate what the federal response would need to accomplish.
 The Secretary should have designated the Principal Federal Official on Saturday, two days prior to landfall, from the roster of PFOs who had successfully completed the required training, unlike then-FEMA Director Michael Brown. Considerable confusion was caused by the Secretarys PFO decisions.
 A proactive federal response, or push system, is not a new concept, but it is rarely utilized.
 The Secretary should have invoked the Catastrophic Incident Annex to direct the federal response posture to fully switch from a reactive to proactive mode of operations.
 Absent the Secretaryfs invocation of the Catastrophic Incident Annex, the federal response evolved into a push system over several days.
 The Homeland Security Operations Center failed to provide valuable situational information to the White House and key operational officials during the disaster.
 The White House failed to de-conflict varying
damage assessments and discounted information that ultimately proved accurate.
 Federal agencies, including DHS, had varying degrees of unfamiliarity with their roles and responsibilities under the National Response Plan and National Incident Management System.
 Once activated, the Emergency Management Assistance Compact enabled an unprecedented level of mutual aid assistance to reach the disaster area in a timely and effective manner.
 Earlier presidential involvement might have resulted in a more effective response.

DHS and the states were not prepared for this catastrophic event
 While a majority of state and local preparedness grants are required to have a terrorism purpose, this does not preclude a dual use application.
 Despite extensive preparedness initiatives, DHS was not prepared to respond to the catastrophic effects of Hurricane Katrina.
 DHS and FEMA lacked adequate trained and experienced staff for the Katrina response.
 The readiness of FEMAs national emergency response teams was inadequate and reduced the effectiveness of the federal response.

Command and control was impaired at all levels, delaying relief
 Lack of communications and situational awareness paralyzed command and control.
 A lack of personnel, training, and funding also
weakened command and control.
 Ineffective command and control delayed many relief efforts. The military played an invaluable role, but coordination was lacking
 The National Response Planfs Catastrophic Incident Annex as written would have delayed the active duty military response, even if it had been implemented.
 DOD/DHS coordination was not effective during Hurricane Katrina.
 DOD, FEMA, and the state of Louisiana had difficulty coordinating with each other, which slowed the response.
 National Guard and DOD response operations were comprehensive, but perceived as slow.
 The Coast Guards response saved many lives, but coordination with other responders could improve.
 The Army Corps of Engineers provided critical resources to Katrina victims, but pre-landfall contracts were not adequate.
 DOD has not yet incorporated or implemented lessons learned from joint exercises in military
assistance to civil authorities that would have allowed for a more effective response to Katrina.
 The lack of integration of National Guard and active duty forces hampered the military response.
 Northern Command does not have adequate insight into state response capabilities or adequate interface with governors, which contributed to a lack of mutual understanding and trust during the Katrina response.
 Even DOD lacked situational awareness of postlandfall conditions, which contributed to a slower response.
 DOD lacked an information sharing protocol that
would have enhanced joint situational awareness and communications between all military components.
 Joint Task Force Katrina command staff lacked joint training, which contributed to the lack of coordination between active duty components.
 Joint Task Force Katrina, the National Guard, Louisiana, and Mississippi lacked needed communications equipment and the interoperability required for seamless on-the-ground coordination.
 EMAC processing, pre-arranged state compacts, and Guard equipment packages need improvement.
 Equipment, personnel, and training shortfalls affected the National Guard response.
 Search and rescue operations were a tremendous success, but coordination and integration between the military services, the National Guard, the Coast Guard, and other rescue organizations was lacking.
Of course none of that is to defend defend or excuse the governor, mayor and chief of police for their own failures, but to point out that this disaster was neglected and incompetantly run from the federal level as well as the state.
402Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5910352717
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 19:31
RE: 393

PD, I thought Novak revealed his three sources in his two columns below.

Armitage's Leak

Washington Post

Thursday, September 14, 2006

...

First, Armitage did not, as he now indicates, merely pass on something he had heard and that he "thought" might be so. Rather, he identified to me the CIA division where Mrs. Wilson worked and said flatly that she recommended the mission to Niger by her husband, former ambassador Joseph Wilson. Second, Armitage did not slip me this information as idle chitchat, as he now suggests. He made clear that he considered it especially suited for my column.

An accurate depiction of what Armitage actually said deepens the irony of his being my source.

...

Duberstein told me Armitage wanted to know whether he was my source. I did not reply because I was sure that Armitage knew he was the source.

...

Armitage's silence for the next 2 1/2 years caused intense pain for his colleagues in government and enabled partisan Democrats in Congress to falsely accuse Rove of being my primary source. When Armitage now says he was mute because of special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald's request, that does not explain his silent three months between his claimed first realization that he was the source and Fitzgerald's appointment on Dec. 30, 2003. Armitage's tardy self-disclosure is tainted because it is deceptive.


My Leak Case Testimony

Washington Post

Wednesday, July 12, 2006

But on Jan. 12, two days before my meeting with Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor informed Hamilton that he would be bringing to the Swidler Berlin offices only two waivers. One was by my principal source in the Valerie Wilson column, a source whose name has not yet been revealed. The other was by presidential adviser Karl Rove, whom I interpret as confirming my primary source's information. In other words, the special prosecutor knew the names of my sources.

When Fitzgerald arrived, he had a third waiver in hand -- from Bill Harlow, the CIA public information officer who was my CIA source for the column confirming Mrs. Wilson's identity. I answered questions using the names of Rove, Harlow and my primary source.

...

403Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 19:37
I just read all of the committee points and it is political speak, nothing of substance.

There is no doubbt in my mind if Jeb Bush had been Governor of Louisiana, we wouldn't be talking about the Katrina failure. Relief was there and was blocked, the National Guard is at the disposal of the Governor and she called them up late.

http://newsbusters.org/node/2072

The biggest failures during Katrina were, the poor evacuation, slow reponse of relief aid and delay in calling the National Guard, none of which could be blamed on FEMA.

I was a contractor for FEMA and the training is a joke. 2 days on how to access damage and write the check. This was during the Clinton years and I am sure it hasn't gotten better. How it works is the Federal Goverment contracts the job out to 2 or 3 contractors and they each in turn hire sub-contractors to access the damage and give aan appraisal for the repair. Many had no clue what they were doing and there were no check or balances for accuracy. You got 25 bucks for doing an inspection and faster you went the more you made. If you did 20 inspection a day you were called an All-star and I never heard of even one person questioned for accuracy.
404Jag
      ID: 14828255
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 19:42
The correct link
405Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 19:43
Your link doesn't work.
406Perm Dude
      ID: 251012710
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 19:57
#402: Novak hasn't named his primary source, though he did say Armitage was one source he used. It is interesting that Novak does some devastating damage to Armitage's story as well.

Of course, Armitage's story has a lot of holes anyway, probably because it was offered up, and repeated all over the conservative media, in response to Fitzgerald's prosecution of Libby. Just as Armitage's talk with Novak was in response to Joe Wilson's NYT op-ed (the talk was two days later).
407Wilmer McLean
      ID: 5910352717
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 23:33
In the first chapter of Novak's book, Prince of Darkness, Novak wrote the following:

CIA leak: Now it can be told

...

Then, in the last week of June 2003, Armitage's office called to agree unexpectedly to my request and set up the appointment for July 8.

Neither of us set ground rules.

It is important to note that Armitage reached out to me before Joe Wilson went public on the New York Times op-ed page and on "Meet the Press" ** with an account of his Niger report that he said contradicted 16 words in Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address: ("The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium in Africa.")

I was ushered into Armitage's big State Department inner office promptly at 3 p.m. Neither of us set ground rules for my visit. I assumed, however, that what Armitage said would not be attributed to him but would not be off the record. That is, I could write about information he gave me but would not identify him by name. During a long career, I had come to appreciate that sort of thing in countless interviews without putting it into so many words. I viewed what Armitage told me to be just as privileged as if he had made me swear a blood oath.

Armitage was giving me high-level insider gossip, unusual in a first meeting. About halfway through our session, I brought up Bush's sixteen words. What Armitage told me generally confirmed what I had learned from sources the previous day while I was reporting for the Fran Townsend column.

I then asked Armitage a question that had been puzzling me but, for the sake of my future peace of mind, would better have been left unasked.

Why would the CIA send Joseph Wilson, not an expert in nuclear proliferation and with no intelligence experience, on the mission to Niger?

"Well," Armitage replied, "you know his wife works at CIA, and she suggested that he be sent to Niger." "His wife works at CIA?" I asked. "Yeah, in counterproliferation."

He mentioned her first name, Valerie. Armitage smiled and said: "That's real Evans and Novak, isn't it?" I believe he meant that was the kind of inside information that my late partner, Rowland Evans, and I had featured in our column for so long. I interpreted that as meaning Armitage expected to see the item published in my column.

The exchange about Wilson's wife lasted no more than sixty seconds.

I never spoke to Armitage again about Wilson. But he acknowledged to me nearly three months later through his political adviser, lobbyist Ken Duberstein, that he was indeed the primary source for my information about Wilson's wife. *** Shortly thereafter, he secretly revealed his role to federal authorities investigating the leak of Mrs. Wilson's name but did not inform White House officials, apparently including the president.

...



** and *** -- Elizabeth de la Vega's Ken Duberstein's connection is interesting.

*** -- Novak wrote that Armitage acknowledges being the primary source (without acknowledging that Armitage is?) Very Interesting.


Also, Elizabeth de la Vega's Machiavellian theory is brilliant -- from two perspectives.

1) For de la Vega for conjuring it.

2) For Rove et al for operating it. (If they did.)

The it (Machiavellian theory): (from your link)

...

At the same time, from the perspective of the White House, Armitage's "admission" would get Rove and Libby off the hook. If the investigation had focused solely on the genesis of the disclosures that led to Novak's column, as the Bush administration obviously thought it would, Libby would not have been at risk at all and Armitage's story would have absolved Rove as well. Armitage claimed he had acted inadvertently and Rove, on his part, was merely confirming a rumor to a trusted columnist. This is, in fact, just what Rove and Libby have been saying all along.

Coincidentally, this MO for the two leaks to Novak precisely mirrors the information-laundering technique Rove is famous for using, especially with Novak. As Corn and Isikoff explain, Rove will frequently give information to Novak off the record, suggesting that Novak call someone else to confirm it, thereby using "Novak to play political brushback without leaving any fingerprints."

...
408Perm Dude
      ID: 3210222722
      Tue, Nov 27, 2007, 23:44
How can Armitage acknowledge he was the primary source? He didn't know the other sources. And his own story says that he didn't know anything until October 2003 (which was a ridiculous assertion on its face).

The point about Rove at the bottom of your post is well-known but bears keeping in mind. His job was to wipe fingerprints while planting intelligence and counterintelligence in the media.
409walk
      ID: 7952415
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 10:13
One view on the criminality of the warrantless wiretaps:

Turley: Federal Constitutional Crime
410J-Bar
      ID: 310172921
      Thu, Nov 29, 2007, 23:14
i feel slighted that i wasn't mentioned and felt that i have asked for civil debate numerous times and at that point the thread dies. with the last being about the schip veto.

oh well
411walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 10:21
McGovern, Wash Post: Impeach Bush/Cheney
412boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 11:28
Bush really has been flying under the radar lately i guess someone felt that they needed to bring that fact up.
413walk
      Dude
      ID: 32928238
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 11:54
I found it interesting to find that editorial in the Washington Post. Anyway, it's not likely to happen, which McGovern acknowledges. I think his points are that, taken together, these leaders have gotten away with quite a bit when it comes to laws broken and net results to the country.
414boikin
      ID: 59831214
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 13:13
i think it is interesting to see that one president can be lauded as hero and others can be seen as goats for many times the same offenses. james madison and the war of 1812, andrew jackson his total disreguarded for the constitution on many occasions, vs the likes of bush.
415Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 13:26
From Walk's McGovern (subdue snicker) editorial....
After the 1972 presidential election, I stood clear of calls to impeach President Richard M. Nixon for his misconduct during the campaign

Wow 2 paragraphs in and he's . lying
416Perm Dude
      ID: 1803267
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 14:02
Good find, MBJ. Once again, a good argument can be made by McGovern and he takes a big swing and a miss.
417Perm Dude
      ID: 1803267
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 14:15
Volokh has a good comments section on the point, btw.
418Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 15:38
PD - Volokh was my point of reference...

Leaving aside whether there is a good argument to be made - using McGovern as a citation to authority is a pretty dubious enterprise.
419Perm Dude
      ID: 1803267
      Mon, Jan 07, 2008, 15:46
I agree. Certainly someone like McGovern (or, on the Right, Limbaugh) cannot have loose language in an essay like that and not expect to get slammed for it. Maybe he meant something slightly different, I dunno. But he's not going to get the benefit of the doubt.
420Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sat, Jan 19, 2008, 14:27
White House claims no emails are missing, and are rebutted by their own technicians
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