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Subject: immigration reform- skank style
Posted by: rockafellerskank
- Dude [27652109] Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 23:30
I'd imagine you guys have discussed this ad nausuem, but I'm feeling in the mood to type. I live in Phoenix. With the prez race coming up and the GOP candidate all but a given, I've been thinking about what I'd so if I was dictator of the world on the US/immigration issue.
I don't post much anymore, so fire away.
1. i want most of the immigrants to stay. i believe the vast majority are honest, hard working and contribute a positive to our society. Especially economy.
2. I want the really bad eggs to leave the US for good and I want some teeth in the legislation to keep them out, forever. I don;t have any sympathy for the bad eggs.
3. The problem didn't get created overnight. it will not be solved overnight. Let's try to map out a 4-year solution. from there, we reassess and try to improve.
01/09 new prez sworn in.
02/09 new legislation on immigration.
rules:
a)Those in the US most start a registration process (paperwork only by 12/31/09 -- is that too much to ask if you want to stay????) which will include being honest, providing finger prints, birth certificate, real name.
b)Apply for ss# and legal ID -- IF you plan to stay!
c) Fee to gain "probational citizenship will be $X which will not be due in full ubtil 12/31/10 or subject to an approived pay plan -- like a student loan, let's say. For argument's sake, we'll estimate the total fee at $1500.00
d) Since a huge argument for the immigrants is they come here to earn a better living, i don;'t think 1500 to save up over 24 month is too much of a hardship for this better life they seek.
e) these $1500 fees will go to a new department (let's call it The Dept of Bob -- or TDB. TDB will be charged with creating a data base, doing criminal background checks, approving forms, issuing "probationary IDs", etc....
f) Anyone who files and is found to have a criminal record is rejected and deported. but, we set limits on the criminal record. A score system is created so that minor offenses don;t exclude you from probationary citizenship. For example, a DUI will not get you deported. A violent assault WILL get you deported. Sorry dude, out you go -- more on tis later. Also, parents who can prove their children are born in the US, get more l lattitude to stay and a rush status. However, there are limits. if Mom/dad been running meth labs and robbing liquor stiore, the whole family goes (unless suitable relatives are here). the kids can come back free of charge at 18. welcome home.
g) after probationary status is issued to you, you are halfway home....There are , however, conditions. probationary status will be revoked if you: commit a crime (of a certain standard - IE felony), are found to have lied on your application, fail to pay taxes from the date of your prob status forward (calenders year), fail to pay government issued fines (IE driving w/o insurance, court costs, etc...) in excess of $500.00, harbor fugitives, etc...
h) Don't like the rules, fair enough, Free world. Go home.
i) by 12/31/10 the immigrants who "want to have a better life" have had a very reasonable opportunity and a lengthy period of time to do it the right way. Now the rules change. anyone caught here outside of their wroking visa limits, doesn't get deported, they get incarcerated for 6 months as a first time offense hey -- you had chance, 2 years to come cleam. If you realy wanted a better life, work with the process. After 6 mos, deportation. If you get caught here ilelgally a 2nd time, you get 5 years incarceration, then deported. learn alesson yet? If you get caugt here a 3rd time, you get 20 years incarceration. Sorry charlie. We posted the rule sat the border.
j) Anyone that doesn't apply for probationary status or who fails the test of a "decent human being" gets deported one toime for free wiuth a warning that says is you come back and we find you, its' 6 mos mandatory (see i). Sorry, but i have no sympathy for someone who is here and committed crimes.
k) All probatinary immigrant files taxes. failure to file taxes (since you want a better life, help us pay for our hospitals and rods and social security-- is that too much to ask you contribute??/) will result in deportation 1x free with a warning-- come back, go to the pokey for 6 months.
I have to take a break.....
Ok, the prison system gets over burdened. too bad. we build cheap prisons with POW standards. Dont; like it, too bad, don't come over and violate the rules.
i guess I see a system where the good guys get what they want -- a better life. the bad guys get the crap kicked out of them. so, there is no need to build a wall. Over 3,4,5 years, the good ones will stay and play nice, the bad ones will eventually assess the risk as too great (6mos, then years in jail) and the margin will be out of it. Sure, we will always have some illegals, but it will self adjust.
In 2011, a final warning is issued. Register now (cmon, just fill out the dang paper and be honest) as on 1/1/2012 te USA will only issue XXXXX probationary Ids per year. Sorry, our country, we get to pick how many come in. If you don;t apply in 2012, guess you come back in 2013 or risk prosecution and life-long elimination for consideration.
I'm sleepy. Flame away.
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| 1 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Thu, Feb 07, 2008, 23:39
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notes:
I didn't ask anyone to speak English or restrict their right to work in any way. However, after 12/31/2010, that ID is mandatory to work.
i didn't ask anyone to pay back taxes or make any amend for past transgressions.
I'd lift any restrictions that police have about asking alien status and require people to present ID. No id, ride downtown for a check up,. fail check up.. away you go across the border, come back? by Bye 6 mos, too bad.
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| 2 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 00:20
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Sounds pretty reasonable, Skank. However the main problem I see is the massive waiting times for legal immigration. If someone has to wait 20 years, they ain't gonna go through the legal hoops.
To decrease the waiting times, you need to increase the numbers allowed in - probably pretty dramatically.
I'm all for that, but most aren't.
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| 3 | Tree
ID: 4512985
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 06:48
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generally speaking, i like your thoughts...here are the parts i don't like or see problems with...
1. if people have criminal records, they won't file. they'll stay "illegal"...
2. i hate that kids can be punished for their parents behaviour in regards to deporting entire families, even if the kids are born in the U.S. I'm not sure what the solution would be here, and i think the "welcome back when you're 18" rule is fair, but i don't trust our government to not be buried in red tape and paperwork and reject a lot of those returnees who should be welcomed back.
3. the whole incarceration thing - i think our prisons are overcrowded as is. i also have a real issue with throwing a non-citizen into prison, because i think this sets a bad precedent with other countries in regards to a U.S. citizen imprisoned (or not imprisoned as the case may be) in those nations.
this is just unacceptable to me - we build cheap prisons with POW standards. i maintain we DO NOT DO THIS IN THIS COUNTRY. did we not learn from the mistakes of the internment camps for Japanese-Americans during WWII?
i've got no problems with sending the folks who remain "illegal" after your system is implemented back home, but i just can't fathom tossing them in prison.
if we have to keep sending them back, so be it. it won't be cheap, but it'll be cheaper than keeping them in prison for 20 years.
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| 4 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 08:27
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To decrease the waiting times, you need to increase the numbers allowed in - probably pretty dramatically
Ok, theoretically, all or most can stay now. Ongoing, the number can be big, but eventually, the system will rightsize itself as we reach our saturation point economically. once the abilitybto get abee rlife is diminished to the point that all the jobs are filled, the immigranst will haveno incentive to come in droves.
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| 5 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 08:39
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1. if people have criminal records, they won't file. they'll stay "illegal"...
of course they will not file, but at some point we will encounter them and away they go. the "illegals" will be feted out over numerous years.
2. i hate that kids can be punished for their parents behaviour in regards to deporting entire families, even if the kids are born in the U.S.
i hate it too, but it happens all the time in various aspects of life. IE Mom/Dad get sent to jail, kid gets punished (foster home). Mom/dad to lay to work, kids gets punished (go without food/necessities). hopefully, over a generation with new rule, this problem will lessen. hate to be so harsh, but the world is rough and sometimes bad things happen. the overall good is important too.
3. the whole incarceration thing - i think our prisons are overcrowded as is. i also have a real issue with throwing a non-citizen into prison,
We can jut fisagree here. Tough action for serious problem. It's meant to be a deterrent more than a solution. What i have in mind is something like "tent city" in Arizona. It's good enough for US Citizens according to this state. link
this is just unacceptable to me - we build cheap prisons with POW standards.
Again, we disagree. Cost will be an issue. Sorry, but those who break the rules are going to have a miserable 6 months (though they will be treated to Geneva standards). I want it to be a deterrent. I want them to stop breaking the law. If there is no teeth to the law, they will abuse the law.
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| 6 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 08:48
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though they will be treated to Geneva standards
yea, because our government has shown lately they can adhere to that.
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| 7 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 08:56
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for my money RFS...thats probably the best thought out and most feasible plan on the issue; I've heard/read yet. Are there down sides to it? Of course. But they are well reasoned and I dont honestly see a practical alternative to them.
RFS for head of TDB!!!!
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| 8 | rfs on treo
ID: 126352713
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 08:58
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skank is dictator. I promiae to be good dictator. work with me here on this theory.... of course we need change to deal with this probem. including changes in govt policy attitude. agreed.
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| 9 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:18
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ICE Raid in my county yesterday
"This is a message to businesses. We're going after the ones actively participating in illegal hiring," said Brett Tolman, the U.S. Attorney for Utah.
The ICE sweep at Universal Sales, which has made metal highway signs and guard rails here for 30 years, comes at a time when Utah lawmakers are debating about 15 immigration-related measures during the Legislature. Some lawmakers say states need to start implementing legislation because Congress and the federal government have failed to do anything about illegal immigration
In a situation like this, we could incorporate some of Skank's suggestions, or some varuations.
I suggest:
> All workers arrested be thoroughly vetted as to any criminal record, including immediate family members. All workers and immediate family be vetted for fraudulently obtaining government assistance in any regard. Workers must cooperate with authorities in identifying those who sold them the fraudulent documents they used to obtain employment.
>Those workers and their families who pass this process should be given temporary work visas, which can lead to permanent status through Skank's or a similiar process. Those who don't will be deported, with severe penalties(incarceration) if they return.
Next, how to deal with the company that hired them.
Universal's products, which include highway guard rails, bridge railings and the structures that hold overhead metal signs, are found on the highways and byways that run throughout the country as well as parts of western Canada and Mexico. The Utah Department of Transportation said Universal is a major supplier to the big construction companies that work to build and maintain the state's roads. "We also do some business with them directly," UDOT spokesman Adan Carrillo said.
Universal's customers describe the company as a reliable, top-notch supplier that is willing to go above and beyond what is required to ensure that they're happy with the products that are being delivered to them.
"I'm sorry they were the victim of an ICE raid," said Jess Haro of Haro Supply Co. in San Diego. "I hate to hear that they're having any kind of trouble at all. I just hope that they're going to be OK."
Bill Smith
of Dirt & Aggregate Interchange Inc. in Fairview, Ore., pointed out that there are really only two main suppliers of guardrails and Universal is one of them. "They're just a great company to do business with all around."
What point would there be in making the penalties so severe as to put this company out of business? I suggest:
>Firing and prosecution of the HR manager, whose policy appears to be the hiring of illegals exclusively.
>Offer all the jobs now held by illegals to legal US citizens. Let's see if these are jobs that Americans don't want with a level playing field.
>Appropriate fines, but not so severe as to bankrupt the company.
The Utah economy is one of the best in the nation, with, I believe, the lowest unemployment figures nationwide. Yet, even though the picture is rather rosy, the housing market is experiencing a slowdown due to the credit mess. That means lots of illegal workers in the construction industries will be laid off. Companies like Universal will be(have been) tempted to fill vacancies with these illegals without offering positions to the open market. In the long term, this could lead to more serious ramifications for illegals as the community's ire is raised as the unemployment figures rise.
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| 10 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 10:30
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Firing and prosecution of the HR manager, whose policy appears to be the hiring of illegals exclusively
There should be at least some investigation into the hiring pracitces. If the HR manager is hiring illegals on direct orders from above, I don't see why he should be the scapegoat. If its a practice that comes directly from the highest exec levels or ownership, these people should be penalized significantly enough to deter them from resorting to it.
If you can't get Americans to fill and keep those jobs, you have a clear case for a need for more foreign work visas.
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| 11 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 13:09
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Arizona has a new employer sanctions law that was just upheld
Stupid law. It makes no sense to void the business license of a company after 2 violations. Sure, there should be penalties, but i think the hiring manager should suffer a financial or short term incarceration penalty. Put the company out of business and you are penalizing a lot of otherwise innocnt workers by subjecting them to unempoyment.
Been thinking about more skank laws.
Taxes; I don't think its fair to charge the immigrants social security tax since they will never receive the benefit 9of course neither will i, but i digress). bit, they do receive the benefit of support services such as roads, bridges, fire fighters, police, healthcare (will chip in a thought here), and other services local, state and federal governments provide. I say we create a special tax that applies ONLY ti immigrant workers that is reasonable but will go to the government for distribution back to the fed, state, local municipalities. Some of this tax would also go into a subsect of Medicare, thus effectively creating an insurance premium. Each worker who FILES TAXES will get an insurance card so the hospitals and doctors have a recovery vehicle similiar to then they treat the old peole under Medicare or poor people under Medicaid. hey, this ain't perfect, but it's better than what ewe have now. File no taxes, no card. File no taxes, subject to deportation, etc..., ect.... hey, you gotta pay your fair share for the better life you seek.
day laborers. Again, huge issue here in AZ. I think day laborers are fine. Encourage business to payn their workers at the end of each day in check form so that less money can be "under the table" Require a legit business to see the provision ID card. Now, there will always be cheating on taxes. thsi is America, right/ but, by creating an incentive file file, (ie lack of deportation), you will at least collect a marginal amount of the cash workers taxes. better than zero we get today. on fact when a provisional worker has contact with law enforcement, SOP will be a contact to TBD and among the data housed will be criminal record but also a file from the IRS confirming tax file status. no file, risk trip down to the precinct to explain/investigate. Sorry Charlie.
Play nice within the immigrant friendly process or go away.
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| 12 | protester
ID: 121472717
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 19:03
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Hey, what about OUR Laws? I spent 35 years building a business, paying good wages, paying my taxes and getting 1(one) compliant written to the State. My co-workers made good money or they would have left; we almost all paid house notes, car notes, food, utilitiy bills, insurance, clothing, medical, schooling and many other costs associated with being family men and parents. Illegals came into our job market and worked for 70% of my folks take home pay, they lived 7 0r more in a singlewide mobile home, did not have other mouths to feed and clothe, taxes to pay or the other neccessaties that family men have to pay. They brought their families up later and our government gives them; free medical, food stamps, free schooling raising our proprety taxes, and no tax burden, Yes, enforce the laws, force them illegals to go home and apply legally to come here.
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| 13 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 21:14
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protester,
Of course, there are examples of individuals or individual businesses that don't benefit, but skank is concerned with the well being of the USA. No solution will be foolproof in that 100% of 100% of 100% of people are made whole. But, reading your post, I assume you'd be on board with the skanky plan, yes?
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