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0 Subject: William F. Buckley Jr. Is Dead at 82

Posted by: nerveclinic
- [105222] Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 17:57


Certainly deserves a thread.
1nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 18:07


One of the most brilliant debate shows I have ever seen on TV was put together by Buckly. The debate subject was "should drugs be legalized".

Obviously Buckley took the view they should be. I felt by the end of the debate he had stacked the panel in favor of the legalization side putting people on who were intelligent and well versed in thier presentation of why legalization was appropriate.

The anti legalization side had, among others...Jerry Falwell. That should give you and idea how things went.

I kept a tape of the debate and showed it to people for years after.

2Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 18:10
I always loved that one of the fathers of the modern conservative movement was such a proponent of decriminalization.

R.I.P. WFB.

I know this was a sad day for Boldwin.
3biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 18:14


President Bush called Buckley a great political thinker, wit, author and leader. "He influenced a lot of people, including me," the president said. "He captured the imagination of a lot of people."

But Buckley was also willing to criticize his own and made no secret of his distaste for at least some of Bush's policies. In a 2006 interview with CBS, he called the Iraq war a failure.

"If you had a European prime minister who experienced what we've experienced, it would be expected that he would retire or resign," Buckley said at the time.

Luck was in the very bones of Buckley, blessed with a leading man's looks, an orator's voice, a satirist's wit and an Ivy League scholar's vocabulary. But before he emerged in the 1950s, few imagined conservatives would rise so high, or so enjoy the heights.

For at least a generation, conservatism had meant the pale austerity of Herbert Hoover, the grim isolationism of Sen. Robert Taft, the snarls and innuendoes of Sen. Joseph McCarthy. Democrats were the party of big spenders and "Happy Days Are Here Again." Republicans settled for respectable cloth coats.

Unlike so many of his peers and predecessors on the right, Buckley wasn't a self-made man prescribing thrift, but a multimillionaire's son who enjoyed wine, sailing and banter and assumed his wishes would be granted. Even historian Arthur M. Schlesinger Jr., who labeled Buckley "the scourge of American liberalism," came to appreciate his "wit, his passion for the harpsichord, his human decency, even ... his compulsion to epater the liberals."

Buckley once teased Schlesinger after the historian praised the rise of computers for helping him work more quickly. "Suddenly I was face to face with the flip side of Paradise," Buckley wrote. "That means, doesn't it, that Professor Schlesinger will write more than he would do otherwise?"

Buckley founded the biweekly magazine National Review in 1955, declaring that he proposed to stand "athwart history, yelling 'stop' at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who urge it."

Trib obit.

Sweetness and Light.



His victory was thorough.
4Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 18:29
He often got things wrong:
Buckley also had little use for the music of the counterculture, once calling the Beatles "so unbelievably horrible, so appallingly unmusical, so dogmatically insensitive to the magic of the art, that they qualify as crowned heads of antimusic."

He was an old man when I first started listening to him in the 1990's, but I did love his rhetorical flourish. I imagine the Bill O'Reilly's of modern media saddened him to no end. He was always polite and gracious and that will be missed.
5biliruben
      ID: 5610442715
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 19:10
I always thought it funny he looked like Dennis Hopper.
6walk
      ID: 381351512
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 19:44
Yes, Dennis Hopper. And I would have loved to have heard his views on Malkin and Coulter and O'Reilly.
7Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 21:45
This one made me LOL:

More typical was his comment after actress Shelley Winters said on a TV talk show that she was a liberal because "growing up as a girl in the Depression, Herbert Hoover hated me while Franklin Roosevelt gave me a bowl of hot soup." Quoth Buckley: "Mr. Hoover was truly a man of remarkable foresight."
8Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 22:10
The most interesting article anyone is going to find on Buckley is about the turning point when the National Review favorably introduced neoconservatism to their readers and Buckley went silent and withdrew from his magazine and movement.

Buckley's Drakh Keepers .
9Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Wed, Feb 27, 2008, 23:40
John O’Sullivan
It is pretty generally accepted that Bill Buckley is one of the principal founders of modern conservatism — up there along with Reagan, Friedman, and Hayek. Some of those who concede this do so, admittedly, because they have no very high opinion of conservatism and are content to give Bill credit for it. But that is not true about his equally valid claim to be one of the main figures who helped bring Communism to an end. Liberals have been asserting since 1989 that it was a united America led by Truman and Kennedy as much as by Nixon and Reagan that contained and eventually transcended the evil empire. In that account Bill becomes a minor figure who led a noisy anti-Communist McCarthyite rabble and — sure — kept it more or less civilized.

For an immediate antidote to this nonsense, visit Eastern Europe (of which more later.)

In fact Bill performed four great services to the cause of anti-Communism and to the succouring of its victims. His first was to make anti-Communism the glue that held an otherwise heterogeneous conservative coalition together. As the conservative movement grew, therefore, so it ensured that anti-Communism was kept in the forefront of public policy and the public mind. Second, he created the magazine, National Review, that became the meeting ground for anti-Communists of different stripes. Again, through NR, he kept inserting anti-Communists perspectives into a public debate that would otherwise have marginalized them before 1968 and overwhelmed them after 1968. Third, he gave a platform and a megaphone to the two most important anti-Communist intellectuals in American life after 1945: James Burnham and Whittaker Chambers. Strategically and spiritually they gave Americans far better advice on the Cold War than did the liberal intellectuals of the “vital center” who anyway after 1968 began to equivocate and appease. Fourth, Bill himself dispelled the cultivated myth that anti-Communists were by their nature crude extremists or simplistic yokels by the simple device of being himself. Regularly defeating the faculties of Harvard and Yale in debate, he won over the first thousand names in the telephone directory to the anti-Communist cause.

In Eastern Europe he won something more important — the hearts and gratitude of the citizens of the captive nations. When I visited Eastern Europe in the late 1980s, I was treated as a hero and benefactor simply by virtue of being editor of NR. Dissidents told me how they had read smuggled copies of NR by torchlight under the bedclothes. New ministers in anti-Communist governments asked me if I could arrange a meeting with WFB so that they could thank him in person. Even those Soviets still clinging on wanted to persuade him that they weren’t so bad. And now that they were finished, he could afford to be gracious.

In sum: Bill led a fight that Chambers thought was lost and Burnham feared might be endless. And he won because his troops were a minority in the West but the great majority of the East.
10Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 00:01
Conservatism vs the new National Review minus Buckley.
11nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 00:05


He was always polite and gracious and that will be missed.

Except for the time he physically threatened Noam Chomsky on a talk show for his criticism of the Viet Nam war. It was pretty funny, Chomsky was stunned.

Obviously Buckley got a number of things wrong over the years.
12Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 00:10
The things that are 'obvious' to you never cease to amaze me. You are such a curious hybrid of PD's slavish zeitgeist worship and my willingness to look at all angles. I have yet to figure you out.
13Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 00:55
Video: WFB re Reagan on Charlie Rose
14nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 04:47


The things that are 'obvious' to you never cease to amaze me. You are such a curious hybrid of PD's slavish zeitgeist worship and my willingness to look at all angles. I have yet to figure you out.

Well Baldwin to me the Viet Nam war was an "obvious" mistake.

I doubt if there's a war you don't like.

By the way what is "slavish zeitgeist worship?" sorry that's like one of those $10 dollar words that Buckley liked to use and I only have a $5 dollar vocabulary.

Frankly I often read PD's posts and find them different then anything I would ever write. That's not a criticism of PD, just an observation.

I think what puzzles you is that I am so left wing on some issues (Social issues, war) and so much more to the right then a lot of the lefties on the board when it comes to economic issues, capitalism, free enterprise and my support for the right to gun ownership. (How many pacifists do you know that own a Glock?)

I keep telling you I don't follow rigid ideologies like many people on the forum, I look at each issue on it's merits.

You mention your "willingness to look at all angles", but aside from the occasional conspiracy theory, you strike me as a solid right wing Christian. You follow that party line hook line and sinker except for the conspiracy angles when it suits your purpose.

What am I missing, when do you identify with the left/liberals?




15Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 07:52
Coulter on Buckley!
The president of Yale sent alumni thousands of copies of McGeorge Bundy's review of the book from the Atlantic Monthly calling Buckley a "twisted and ignorant young man." Other reviews bordered on the hyperbolic. One critic simply burst into tears, then transcribed his entire crying jag word for word.

Buckley's next book, "McCarthy and His Enemies," written with L. Brent Bozell, proved that normal people didn't have to wait for the Venona Papers to be declassified to see that the Democratic Party was collaborating with fascists. The book – and the left's reaction thereto – demonstrated that liberals could tolerate a communist sympathizer, but never a Joe McCarthy sympathizer.

Relevant to Republicans' predicament today, National Review did not endorse a candidate for president in 1956, correctly concluding that Dwight Eisenhower was not a conservative, however great a military leader he had been. In his defense, Ike never demanded that camps housing enemy detainees be closed down.

16Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 07:59
You mention your "willingness to look at all angles"...

...What am I missing, when do you identify with the left/liberals?
- Nerve


Identify never, look from their angle always. The difficulty arises when one tries to identify any logic they might be using temporarily in place of their overworked emotions. My time mispent here could be described a search for the illusive liberal logical thot.
17sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 09:23
or of deluding yourself perhaps.
18Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 10:16
i just remember seeing it as a boy - buckley and some bearded philosopher were discussing something - when the philosopher made the statement something like, "see my book, we cannot truly say this book exists..." and the man, buckley (even black and white tv could not hide the sparkle in his grin and eyes), said (in much bigger words than i can recall), "then please hand me your non-existent book and let me smash it against your head ... and then we'll discuss whether you think your book really exists or not...." i may not recall the exact words ... but i'll never forget such brilliance.
19nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 12:41


Your right when you say sparkle in his eyes.

I was always in awe of that certain way he could smile and literally his eyes seemed to sparkle.

Even when I disagreed with the words coming out of his mouth I still was struck by that self assured grin and gaze.

I think I've mentioned it here before, but I'll bring it up again. I had a personal "encounter" with Buckley.

I walked up to the mic during the question and answer period at a large college speech, maybe 500 people in attendance.

I told him it was nice to finally be talking with a Skull and Bonesman.

I asked him how Anthony Sutton was able to state in his book that the Skull and Bones were attempting to bring about a New World Order? The book came out in 1986 and Bonesman Bush used the phrase several years later to describe the world coming together to confront Saddam Hussien.

Buckley simply said "I refuse to honor that question with a answer...next".

Of course at the time, it was well known that Bonesmen were not allowed to admit their membership in public. In fact around this time then president Bush Sr. asked security to have a reporter removed from the room when he asked him a question about the Skull and Bones.

20Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 12:59
In fact I have the video.

BTW the previous blockquote was someone else's recollection. My bad. I get tired of writing so much html and was hoping having it in blockquotes would be sufficient.
21nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:34

Well that would be a second incident but to Kerry's credit he seemed to say let me answer his question...

I'm referring to Bush Sr.

There's video out there on it because it was a press conference and someone who had seen it on the news and told me about it.

So when you look at that video does it make you realize how fragile our right to free speech really is?

22Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 13:38
Absolutely.
24Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 01629107
      Thu, Feb 28, 2008, 21:08
As is usually the case when an iconic figure passes, I've learned a bit I didn't know about WFB in the past 2 days. The most unfortunate and surprising thing I've come across is something that has managed to escape the sharp anecdotes and flowery eulogies I've seen was Buckley's and The National Review's stark opposition to the civil rights movement of the 1960s.

I've come across several references to claims of his regret for his position in those days but why should he deserve a benefit of doubt that most people here never afforded to Robert Byrd or Strom Thurmond?

I do hate to link the white nationalist site American Renaissance here (wiki article on that organization here) but this article sheds some serious light on the early days of the National Review (in complaining the modern publication fails to live up to the white nationalist standards of it's early years).

I can't seem to summon the admiration and respect I had for WFB before Coulter's references to his support for Goldwater led me to look further into just what Buckley was saying in those days.

Baldwin were you aware of this? That the national Review stood so startkly against MLK, blamed him for the civil rights riots and openly opposed black voting rights? Or that Buckley himself was the author of such articles as his 1969 noted piece, "On Negro Inferiority"?
25Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 09:19
MITH

I was aware of one quote regarding voting in the south that I knew he would not have wanted repeated in the last 45 years.

I am not sure whether to chalk this up to his penchant for wistfully musing about disenfranchizing the uneducated and incompetent voter or whether this signifies a racism among the power elite that I don't believe ever disappears. [no matter the prevailing winds that they themselves put in motion]

Marxists I have known over at Salon Table Talk will happily tell you that marxists who had MLK's ear had made more progress bending him than is commonly believed and I think there are those on the right with more research than I have that may be able to confirm that. I wouldn't fault WFB if he found fault with a marxist over marxist traits. I would of course fault him if he found fault with a race or with racial equality.
26Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 09:30
Thanks for the honesty, B. Unfortunately there are very few places to search for old National Review material on line and most of the ones I do come across are sites similar to or worse than American Renaissance, which aren't entirely trustworthy sources, anyway. That said, the evidence I've seen since yesterday very much indicates an issue with racial equality.

Its very hard to respectfully look back on that time as the dawn of modern American conservatism knowing it was so embroiled in pro-racist politics.
27Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:14
I would think that the NR's reaction to the 'I have a dream' speech would be diagnostic. I would be amazed if the situation could be described seriously as 'embroiled in pro-racist politics'.
28Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:17
You have trouble with calling segregationism pro-racist?
29Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:20
Btw - have you fixed your email computer yet?
30Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:48
No, I think we would need to look very carefully at exactly what the NR was objecting to.

31Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:52
Fair enough. In case you still haven't fixed your email computer (and haven't seen my emails) remember keepers in the Rob Minniti league are due today and you still have to register for the draft at On The Clock.
32Myboyjack
      ID: 56039812
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 10:55
I'd be surprised if the NR was endorsing segregation directly; I'd imagine that they disapproved of the means used on Constitutional or other theoretical grounds.

I seem to recall Buckley saying he was wrong and compared it to his being wrong about the means FDR used to get the US into WWII. Buckley acknowledged that both efforts were the right thing to do, theorhetical objections to the means employed notwithstanding.
33Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 11:06
From the link in post 24:
“Why the South Must Prevail”

A famous example of the early NR stance on race was an unsigned editorial of August 24, 1957, titled “Why the South Must Prevail.” It was almost certainly written by Mr. Buckley, since he uses similar language in his book Up From Liberalism. The editorial argued against giving blacks the vote because it would undermine civilization in the South:
“The central question that emerges … is whether the White community in the South is entitled to take such measures as are necessary to prevail, politically and culturally, in areas in which it does not prevail numerically? The sobering answer is Yes – the White community is so entitled because, for the time being, it is the advanced race. It is not easy, and it is unpleasant, to adduce statistics evidencing the cultural superiority of White over Negro: but it is a fact that obtrudes, one that cannot be hidden by ever-so-busy egalitarians and anthropologists.”
“National Review believes that the South’s premises are correct. … It is more important for the community, anywhere in the world, to affirm and live by civilized standards, than to bow to the demands of the numerical majority.”

“The South confronts one grave moral challenge. It must not exploit the fact of Negro backwardness to preserve the Negro as a servile class. … Let the South never permit itself to do this. So long as it is merely asserting the right to impose superior mores for whatever period it takes to effect a genuine cultural equality between the races, and so long as it does so by humane and charitable means, the South is in step with civilization, as is the Congress that permits it to function.”
The final passage about “genuine cultural equality between the races” can be read either as a last-minute loss of will or as a description of a criterion for the black franchise that could never be met. In any case, the editorial recognizes a principle NR would never articulate today: the right of a civilized minority – racial or otherwise – to impose its will upon an uncivilized majority. NR Contributing Editor L. Brent Bozell dissented from the editorial on constitutional grounds but still admitted, “It is understandable that White Southerners should try to have it both ways – they can’t know what would happen should Negroes begin to vote, and they naturally want to cover their bet.”
[Emphasis is the writer's]

More from that link:
September 7, 1965, article by Will Herberg blames Martin Luther King and the civil rights movement for the 1965 Los Angeles riots:
“For years now, the Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King and his associates have been deliberately undermining the foundations of internal order in this country. With their rabble-rousing demagoguery, they have been cracking the ‘cake of custom’ that holds us together. With their doctrine of ‘civil disobedience’ they have been teaching hundreds of thousands of Negroes … that it is perfectly all right to break the law and defy constituted authority if you are a Negro-with-a-grievance… . And they have done more than talk. They have on occasion after occasion, in almost every part of the country, called out their mobs on the streets, promoted ‘school strikes’ sit-ins, lie-ins, in explicit violation of the law and in explicit violation of the public authority. They have taught anarchy and chaos by word and deed … .”
34Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 11:29
I doubt you'll find Buckley was ever against applying contitutional rights equally. I get the sense that there was considerable discomfort about issues of lawless tactics, race hustling for the personal gain of the demogogue, degradation of civilization, the fear that after they achieved their racial victories, they might move on to marxist projects, [when he was killed he as working on a janitor's strike in part because he had already won and was looking for a new dragon to slay], I don't even know if that early, they forsaw affirmative action swinging the pendulum to preferential treatment against non-blacks but that would have been prescient.
35Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 11:39
BTW MITH, it is interesting that MLK himself pointed out that Watts should be laid at the feet of other newer black leaders who had mistakenly abandoned or overlooked the need to always be cogisant of being constructive when planning actions. The NR writer was not aware of this MLK quote at the time it seems.

Also sit-ins led to a lot more than racial improvements. They went on to the marxist destruction of higher education in America so well NR [and the writer of 'God and Man at Yale'] should have been concerned by the tactics.
36Myboyjack
      ID: 56039812
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 13:12
MITH - What do you think of A. Lincoln's legacy? Does his explicit racism make itvery hard to respectfully look back on Lincoln?
37Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 454491514
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 13:36
I really don't know about his explicit racism, MBJ. Provide me with some examples so that I can think on it.

I understand your point, that the middle ground of the public discussion of civil rights was in a much different place in the mid-19th century. But unless I'm mistaken, Lincoln's positions still favored the civil rights side at the time, even if by today's standards he was an overt racist. Even though Lincoln was raised on the standard of racial inequality, he possessed the morality to greatly advance the early progress of that time.

But in Buckley's and The National Review's case (a) we're talking about 50 years ago, not 150 years ago and (b) wherever the center was in the mid-20th century, Buckley and the NR planted their flag on the same side as those who sought to stop the progression toward racial equality.
38Pancho Villa
      ID: 495272016
      Fri, Feb 29, 2008, 13:56
the marxist destruction of higher education in America

Not the marxist leaning, marxist tendencies, or marxist direction of higher education in America(all statements of questionable merit), but the marxist destruction of higher education in America. Weird, because I drove by BYU yeasterday and it was still standing, open for business. So if you didn't mean it literally, you must have meant it figuratively, but there isn't any support for that position either, including the staff at NR, then or now. It sounds more like something Michael Savage would spew.

39Boldwin
      ID: 3013265
      Sat, Mar 01, 2008, 01:44
Precious few that aren't broken and pumping out america hating, deconstructed godless commies.
40sarge33rd
      ID: 76442923
      Sat, Mar 01, 2008, 08:51
In Baldwins world, "America hating" is defined as anyone unwilling to shove puritanical legislation down every one elses throat.


I say YEAH broken colleges!!!
41Perm Dude
      ID: 5023819
      Sat, Mar 01, 2008, 11:43
america hating, deconstructed godless commies

Welcome back to the 60's! When Conservatives really felt good and just about their hate! Except for the racist kind--forget we said anything about that.
42Boldwin
      ID: 12341213
      Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 15:51
Even when I disagreed with the words coming out of his mouth I still was struck by that self assured grin and gaze. - Nerve

This can be explained by the fact that he enjoyed the sole privilege of knowing all 20 brilliant options that he had to choose from for his next response.
43nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 18:07


My favorite moment in the drug debate he moderated..put together...

One pro legalization debater was an emergency room doctor from an inner city.

Falwell (or someone) asked why he wasn't concerned about the OD's coming into his emergency room.

The doctor coolly explained he rarely saw drug OD's, and they usually survived.

What he did see was week after week, horrific gun shot wounds, war time trauma, almost always related to 1) A drug turf war (Which would be eliminated with legalization). Or 2) Gun shot wounds from a robbery by a junkie (who wouldn't need to mug people for drug money if the stuff was handed out legally.)

The doctor assured the panel the way to save lives was to legalize and dispense it through the government.

How do you argue with that...Buckley's eyes twinkled and twinkled.

44Boldwin
      ID: 12341213
      Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 19:53
I love it.

He was not making the S&B boys back at the 'Tomb' happy at all either so he was taking a big risk IMO.
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