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0 Subject: Have conservatives given up on conservatism?

Posted by: James K Polk
- [51010719] Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 14:42

This column by Jonah Goldberg rambles a bit, but generally heads toward this point:

Conservatism faces a moment of truth. Libertarianism is gaining in popularity and so is a government-friendly form of conservatism of which Caldwell's spam article is a minor example. ... What both branches of the Right share is the view that it is government and government alone that has the power and/or the right to stop change we as a society don't like. This is a disturbing development because it reveals that much of the Right has grown blind to the organic society championed by both Hayek and Burke. If the Right comes around to the position that only the government has the authority or the ability to solve a real social problem and that a real social problem is defined as any problem the government can solve, then we are in big trouble. It would signal that conservatives have given up on trying to improve the culture and uphold the authority of tradition. In short, it means that conservatives will have given up on conservatism.
I particularly liked this passage as well:

It seems to me that a conservative — as opposed to a libertarian or a liberal — should not have an inordinate fear of the state or an inordinate love of the unregulated free market. This requires conservatives to prefer nuance and balance over On-Off-switch arguments. There are dials to be tweaked. A little more government here. A lot less there. An increased role for the culture everywhere.
Yeah, I try to stay fairly apolitical, but on the whole, this fits with my perception of conservative disconnect: eager to preach small government, happy to invoke government when they feel like society as a whole won't do what they want. There seems to be a fear of culture, rather than reliance on it.

So is Jonah Goldberg right in ideas on the "moment of truth for conservatism"? I'm curious to hear what conservatives have to say. (Maybe this thread is the parallel to one started a while ago by MBJ: The direction of the Democratic Party)
1Madman
      Donor
      ID: 398591212
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 14:54
Looks like an interesting read ... I only have time for a sentence (believe it or not) ...

I've argued elsewhere in real life and I think in some othe threads that we're not there yet, but it's going to hit hard in 2005 when the true impact of the Bush fiscal policies hit home, when the agenda of the religious right has been shunted for several years despite a Republican President, and when issues like Social Security reform, Medicare, etc., all come home to roost one way or another.

It may come earlier if Rhenquist or O'Connor retire this summer (something I'm still somewhat doubtful of) and if the economy continues to falter and if Israel's commitment to the Peace process wavers. But I think Bush can put it off until 2005 based upon his popularity, his ability to stick to basic and resonating themes, and the general tenor that exists now in 9/11 life.

Lastly, all parties and movements are dynamically in a state of flux. Thus, "moment of truth" may be a bit extreme. I'd argue that it's an "inflection point" (where the direction of change can itself change).

That was one sentence. ;) More later.
2Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Tue, Jun 17, 2003, 15:07
I usually like Goldberg, but didn't think much of this effort.

First, I think he is exactly wrong that [American] conservatives have given up on trying to improve the culture and uphold the authority of tradition and think instead of a free market/government dichotomy. just the opposite has occurred during the last few decades (I suggest). I happen to be rereading Bork's Slouching Toward Gomorrah today and it is chockful of quotations from conservatives who take the view that only improving and upholding can do certain necessary tasks on the conservative agenda. Some of these people have been associated with George Bush (Martin Olasky, John DiIulio [now departed]) and represent a more thoughtful breed of conservatism than was around during his father's term, for example. Burkean conservatism is mildly on the upswing in the U.S. Robert Nisbet, who Goldberg quotes, is a more prominent source in conservative circles now than he was 20 years ago.

And I feel his dislike for the idea of government regulating spam to be off base as well. The stigmas that are used to regulate social conduct (Goldberg: Most socially unacceptable behavior is not solved by government action or pure self-interested, free-market consumer choice. It's solved by social pressure: shaming people, refusing to deal with them in polite company, encouraging boycotts, creating formal or informal associations which refuse to do business with certain individuals) cannot be applied to spammers because no one knows who the Hell they are or where to find them. Where 'the culture' cannot influence is a suitable place for government intervention.

There will be a moment of truth for conservatism; it has been delayed because George W. Bush was uniquely acceptable to social, business-oriented, and libertarian conservatives, and this commonality of allegiance has muted factional fighting.

Toral
3Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 14:59
Powerful article describes neocon successful usurpation of limited government conservatism in Republican officeholders and advisors.
In many ways, there’s nothing “neo” about their views, and certainly nothing conservative. Yet they have been able to co-op the conservative movement by advertising themselves as a new or modern form of conservatism.

More recently, the modern-day neocons have come from the far left, a group historically identified as former Trotskyists. Liberal Christopher Hitchins, has recently officially joined the neocons, and it has been reported that he has already been to the White House as an ad hoc consultant. Many neocons now in positions of influence in Washington can trace their status back to Professor Leo Strauss of the University of Chicago. One of Strauss’ books was Thoughts on Machiavelli. This book was not a condemnation of Machiavelli’s philosophy. Paul Wolfowitz actually got his PhD under Strauss. Others closely associated with these views are Richard Perle, Eliot Abrams, Robert Kagan and William Kristol. All are key players in designing our new strategy of preemptive war. Others include: Michael Ledeen of the American Enterprise Institute; former CIA Director James Woolsey; Bill Bennett of Book of Virtues fame; Frank Gaffney; Dick Cheney; and Donald Rumsfeld. There are just too many to mention who are philosophically or politically connected to the neocon philosophy in some varying degree.

The godfather of modern-day neo-conservatism is considered to be Irving Kristol, father of Bill Kristol, who set the stage in 1983 with his publication Reflections of a Neoconservative. In this book, Kristol also defends the traditional liberal position on welfare.

__________________________________________________

Let there be no doubt, those in the neocon camp had been anxious to go to war against Iraq for a decade. They justified the use of force to accomplish their goals, even if it required preemptive war. If anyone doubts this assertion, they need only to read of their strategy in “A Clean Break: a New Strategy for Securing the Realm.” Although they felt morally justified in changing the government in Iraq, they knew that public support was important, and justification had to be given to pursue the war. Of course, a threat to us had to exist before the people and the Congress would go along with war. The majority of Americans became convinced of this threat, which, in actuality, never really existed. Now we have the ongoing debate over the location of weapons of mass destruction. Where was the danger? Was all this killing and spending necessary? How long will this nation-building and dying go on? When will we become more concerned about the needs of our own citizens than the problems we sought in Iraq and Afghanistan? Who knows where we’ll go next—Iran, Syria or North Korea?

At the end of the Cold War, the neoconservatives realized a rearrangement of the world was occurring and that our superior economic and military power offered them a perfect opportunity to control the process of remaking the Middle East.

It was recognized that a new era was upon us, and the neocons welcomed Frances Fukuyama’s “end of history” declaration. To them, the debate was over. The West won; the Soviets lost. Old-fashioned communism was dead. Long live the new era of neoconservatism. The struggle may not be over, but the West won the intellectual fight, they reasoned. The only problem is that the neocons decided to define the philosophy of the victors. They have been amazingly successful in their efforts to control the debate over what Western values are and by what methods they will be spread throughout the world.
__________________________________________________

In Ledeen’s most recent publication, The War Against the Terror Masters, he reiterates his beliefs outlined in this 1999 Machaivelli book. He specifically praises: “Creative destruction…both within our own society and abroad…(foreigners) seeing America undo traditional societies may fear us, for they do not wish to be undone.” Amazingly, Ledeen concludes: “They must attack us in order to survive, just as we must destroy them to advance our historic mission.”
__________________________________________________

Ledeen believes man is basically evil and cannot be left to his own desires. Therefore, he must have proper and strong leadership, just as Machiavelli argued. Only then can man achieve good, as Ledeen explains: “In order to achieve the most noble accomplishments, the leader may have to ‘enter into evil.’ This is the chilling insight that has made Machiavelli so feared, admired and challenging…we are rotten,” argues Ledeen. “It’s true that we can achieve greatness if, and only if, we are properly led.” In other words, man is so depraved that individuals are incapable of moral, ethical and spiritual greatness, and achieving excellence and virtue can only come from a powerful authoritarian leader. What depraved ideas are these to now be influencing our leaders in Washington? The question Ledeen doesn’t answer is: “Why do the political leaders not suffer from the same shortcomings and where do they obtain their monopoly on wisdom?”

Once this trust is placed in the hands of a powerful leader, this neocon argues that certain tools are permissible to use. For instance: “lying is central to the survival of nations and to the success of great enterprises, because if our enemies can count on the reliability of everything you say, your vulnerability is enormously increased.” What about the effects of lying on one’s own people? Who cares if a leader can fool the enemy? Does calling it “strategic deception” make lying morally justifiable? Ledeen and Machiavelli argue that it does, as long as the survivability of the state is at stake. Preserving the state is their goal, even if the personal liberty of all individuals has to be suspended or canceled.
_________________________________________________

Amazingly, Ledeen calls Pearl Harbor a “lucky” event. The Project for a New American Century, as recently as September 2000, likewise, foresaw the need for “a Pearl Harbor event” that would galvanize the American people to support their ambitious plans to ensure political and economic domination of the world, while strangling any potential “rival.”

Recognizing a “need” for a Pearl Harbor event, and referring to Pearl Harbor as being “lucky” are not identical to support and knowledge of such an event, but that this sympathy for a galvanizing event, as 9-11 turned out to be, was used to promote an agenda that strict constitutionalists and devotees of the Founders of this nation find appalling, is indeed disturbing. After 9-11, Rumsfeld and others argued for an immediate attack on Iraq, even though it was not implicated in the attacks.
_________________________________________________

Instead of the “end of history,” we are now experiencing the end of a vocal limited-government movement in our nation’s capital. While most conservatives no longer defend balanced budgets and reduced spending, most liberals have grown lazy in defending civil liberties and now are approving wars that we initiate. The so-called “third way” has arrived and, sadly, it has taken the worst of what the conservatives and liberals have to offer. The people are less well off for it, while liberty languishes as a result.
________________________________________________

More important than the names of people affiliated with neo-conservatism are the views they adhere to. Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.
2. They are for redrawing the map of the Middle East and are willing to use force to do so.
3. They believe in preemptive war to achieve desired ends.
4. They accept the notion that the ends justify the means—that hard-ball politics is a moral necessity.
5. They express no opposition to the welfare state.
6. They are not bashful about an American empire; instead they strongly endorse it.
7. They believe lying is necessary for the state to survive.
8. They believe a powerful federal government is a benefit.
9. They believe pertinent facts about how a society should be run should be held by the elite and
withheld from those who do not have the courage to deal with it.
10. They believe neutrality in foreign affairs is ill-advised.
11. They hold Leo Strauss in high esteem.
12. They believe imperialism, if progressive in nature, is appropriate.
13. Using American might to force American ideals on others is acceptable. Force should
not be limited to the defense of our country.
14. 9-11 resulted from the lack of foreign entanglements, not from too many.
15. They dislike and despise libertarians (therefore, the same applies to all strict constitutionalists.)
16. They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary.
17. They unconditionally support Israel and have a close alliance with the Likud Party.
4Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 15:11
Funny, I read that Paul article earlier today and wondered whether you might come across it. One of the funnier things I've read for some time:

Here is a brief summary of the general understanding of what neocons believe:
1. They agree with Trotsky on permanent revolution, violent as well as intellectual.


That doubled me over.

Mind you there are some truths interspersed among the dross, but as a whole it's nonsense. If there is one key error that can be identified among so many it's the confuting of Straussians with neo-cons. Straussians are only a very very small subset of neoconservatives. Neoconservatism has been around for 20+ years while the handful of Straussians who happened to luck into high positions have done so only recently.

Toral
5Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 15:33
NO Toral as wierd as that is there is remarable truth to that very point. I have often run into that fact.
6Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 16:02
OK I see you are denying every neocon is a Straussian...fair point. Strauss predates neocons not the other way around. I think you need to be more specific before we relegate this fine piece to the trashcan. Also is it fair to say that Machiavellians 'luck' into power? Does that sound likely?

The wierdness is that there would be a Trotkyite element at the head of Republican government. And that Reagan Republicans [and Democrats one presumes] have been left out in the cold by this triumphalist band of Machiavelian plotters.

Shades of '68 Denocratic convention takeover of that party.

Truly one of those facts that makes you go 'hmmmmm'.
7Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 16:24
Here's a different take on the whole Trotskyite-Strauss issue.
8Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 16:46
Raimondo is a leading paleoconservative. Notice that he, or at least one of his cites, separates the ex-Trotskyite issue from the Straussian issue completely:

"Neocons, as ex-Trotskyites, are bad enough, but those who follow the pro-pagan Leo Strauss are deadly.

That is the ex-Trotskyite neocons (Irving Kristol et al.,) are a completely different bunch from the Straussians. They are two completely separate threads; no leading Straussian I know of is an ex-Trotskyite.

Raimundo cites Paul Gottfried, who is the most learned (and persistent) of the anti-neo-cons, and his articles at least keep things of this kind straight, and are worth reading. His criticism of Straussians contains nothing about "ex-Trotskyism", which he hangs on neocons generally in his articles (see my first link).

Toral
9Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 16:50
From post #3

line 16. "They endorse attacks on civil liberties, such as those found in the Patriot Act, as being necessary."

This may be the scariest of the list, because of the obvious usurping of the Constitution, and the recent power grab by the Dept. of Homeland Security concerning child pornography.
Could # 18 read:

Establishment of a domestic police state where dissidents are dealt with in harsh and permanent terms without benefit of judicial process.

In this day and age of media scrutiny, it is highly doubtful such a scenario could become reality, still, as stated in item 4, "the end justifies the means." Has it been established what the ultimate "means" are?
10Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 16:59
This pro-Straussian site describes Strauss' philosophy as his followers see it; go down to the link to "Straussians in the News" for comprehensive coverage of the debate over them in recent months.

Toral
11Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 17:31
This ex-Trotskyite has had my respect for a good long time and makes a good a balanced assessment of blameworthiness.

I am actually more interested in Strauss that Trotsky. My limited exposure to Strauss leads me to the first impression that he is the gateway thru which the sort of dishonest postmodernist modes of reasoning, that have destroyed democrat ability to think, is now filtering into The Republican Party.

I don't think that it is possible to refute that dishonesty is at it's heart.

12Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 17:34
Here is a watchdog site putting a bell on the neocon cat.
13Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 17:52
There's nothing post-modernist about Strauss or Straussians. Just the opposite; he is pre-modernist. Straussians loathe post-modernism, as they do the people you call 'post-modernists' but they regard as the apotheosis of modernism, Hegel and Heidegger.

Straussnet's summary of the distinctive features of Straussian philosophy:

(1) A return to treating old books seriously, reading them slowly and with an effort to understand them as their authors did, rather than as History does.

(2) A recognition of the political nature of philosophy, that most philosophers who wrote did so wrote with a political purpose.

(3) A recognition that the greatest thinkers often wrote with both exoteric and esoteric teachings, either out of fear of persecution or a general desire to present their most important teachings to those most receptive to them. This leads to an attempt to discern the esoteric teachings of the great philosophers from the clues they left in thier writings for careful readers to find.

(4) A recognition of the dangers that historicism, relativism, eclecticism, scientism, and nihilism pose to philosophy and to Western culture generally, and an effort to steer philosophy away from these devastating influences through a return to the seminal texts of Western thought. (emphasis added)

(5) Careful attention paid to the dialogue throughout the development of Western culture between its two points of departure: Athens and Jerusalem. The recognition that Reason and Revelation, originating from these two points respectively, are the two distinct sources of knowledge in the Western tradition, and can be used neither to support nor refute the other, since neither claims to be based on the other's terms.

(6) A constant examination of the most drastic of philosophic distinctions: that between the Ancients and the Moderns. An attempt to better understand philosophers of every age in relation to this distinction, and to learn everything that we as moderns can learn about ourselves by studying both eras.

Re dishonesty: I OTOH see no evidence of dishonesty at its heart; the whole purpose of philosophy in Strauss' view is to get at the truth. He does realize that this concern is never going to be a major concern of the masses, and that society cannot be based on something so radical as unrestrained truth-seeking. Strauss is often distorted to seem to recommended that politicians tell the "noble lie"; what he seems genuinely to have believed is that societies will be based on untruths of some sort, and it is better that they be 'noble' ones (such as "all men are created equal" and "the legitimacy of government depends on the consent of the governed") rather than evil ones.

Toral
14Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 17:55
Really...you see no evidence of dishonesty...sheesh. How else can you describe the whole exoteric-esoteric thing?
15Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 17:58
Strauss is often distorted to seem to recommended that politicians tell the "noble lie"

It aint a distortion if it is literally true.
16Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:02
Moreover Strauss seems to believe that all the great works you seem to think Strauss defends, were actually telling a 'noble lie' for the ears' of the masses and contained another hidden meaning for the elite.

How is that not similar in a way to postmodern deconstruction? It is just as destructive a process.
17Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 1754479
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:03
FWIW, I certainly don't see Straussians as relativist. They are elitists, in the worst sort of ways, though their predilection for textual code breaking makes them seem more like 35 year old science fiction fans dissecting Silmarilion.

An appeal to be part of a self-defined "elite" intelligentsia which traces its roots, Daughters-of-the-American-Revolution-like to a time before things just got messed up around us, is a great one.

Keep fragmenting, o friends on the right.

pd
18Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:07
The belief is that the great teachers of the past wrote esoterically -- which is quite plausible, given that honest writing was likely to get you persecuted or killed. We know that well into the 18th century at least, Western writers, including Christians of all camps, wrote esoterically to some extent on some occasions, to avoid being persecuted by state or church.

I'm open to the suggestion that there was something dubious or suspicious about the implication that esoteric writing was inherently necessary for philosophers, but I can't trust anything Strauss' critics say about the matter, and in any case this implication is far from making the philosophy have "dishonesty at its core".

Jesus often answered his hostile questioners in parables or otherwise indirectly or obscurely, one reason to avoid allowing them to trap him into trouble with state and religious authorities. Does this mean the teaching had "dishonesty at its core"? Straussian esoteric teaching can be figured out, if you think hard enough about it; that is its point.

Toral
19Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:11
Straussian esoteric teaching can be figured out

I missed out on the decoder ring offer. In the Wheaties box was it? What makes you so confident of Straussian 'processing'?
20Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:18
The Straussian teaching is that philosphers write esoterically out of(among other reasons) a general desire to present their most important teachings to those most receptive to them (3 above). There would be no point in writing the stuff if no one could figure it out, would there?

I should note that I'm not saying that Strauss was right, just that there's nothing dishonest about the idea. I thought conspiracy theorists acknowledged that they had sometimes to "pull tehir punches" in what they write, for fear of their careers or lives, among other things. Does that make them essentially dishonest?

Toral
21Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:30
That would depend on whether the esoteric meaning was merely an extention of the exoteric meaning. If the two were diametrically opposed that would be dishonest now wouldn't it?
22Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:31
Illuminating backroom look at neocons at work with the long knives.
23Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:33
I have long wondered why National Review and Commentary, the two magazines most influential in my political philosophy education, no longer had much appeal to me. Now it becomes clear.
24Perm Dude
      Leader
      ID: 1754479
      Sun, Jul 13, 2003, 18:37
Because you are not looking at the text deeply enough? Forgot your Enigma machine?
25Seattle Zen
      Donor
      ID: 55343019
      Mon, Jul 14, 2003, 23:08
Post 22

Wow, that was an excellent article, Baldwin. I found myself rather surprised at how much I agreed with the author, except his views on immigration.

Readers would no longer find articles like Fred Iklé’s on the perils of worshiping the measures of economic growth for their own sake

I did a quick search for this article titled, "Growth Without End, Amen?" March 7, 1994 in the National Review. I'd love to read it, but can't find it. Any help?
26Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Tue, Jul 15, 2003, 03:53
I am just around briefly for the next few days, but I'll see what I can do after that SZ.
27yankeeh8tr
      Donor
      ID: 30638158
      Tue, Jul 15, 2003, 10:07
Excellent article. I always wondered what happened to George Will, Patrick Buchanan and the rest of the conservatives I grew up with, and grudgingly admired.
28Pancho Villa
      Donor
      ID: 533817
      Tue, Jul 15, 2003, 11:10
Baldwin,
After reading and attempting to comprehend the multitude of links concerning the rifts between the different conservative factions, are we to surmise by your obvious displeasure with the neocons that you would be inclined to put yourself in the paeleoconservative camp, a la Gottfried or even Raimondo? I can't imagine you would ally yourself with Raimondo, yet besides his anti-war stance, his positions seem closer to yours than most of the other blogs. Am I way off base here? I'm sure you would rather be considered part of the Coulter Camp, but since she really doesn't have a philosophy beyond liberal bashing and completely ignores the obvious empire-building, rights-trampling and welfare state supporting espoused by the neocons, I suspect your enthrallment with her lies in her siren guiles as opposed to her political saavy.
29Baldwin
      ID: 111112015
      Tue, Jul 15, 2003, 11:31
Great question PV.

Think of me as a Reagan/Newt Gingerich conservative and I think Ann fits right in there as well.

Paleoconservatives are a bit too doctrinaire on the 'avoiding foreign entanglements' issue to probably be practical but otherwise I am closer to them than to neocons.

Libertarians are also appealing but too extreme and need to be a bit more flexible. Just a dash of their influence will do.

I frankly don't have a feel for all of Raimondo's positions so I am afraid I can't answer that point.
30biliruben
      ID: 33258140
      Wed, May 28, 2008, 17:09
Book Review:

"The Predator State: How Conservatives Abandoned the Free Market and Why Liberals Should Too"

The general theses can be simply stated. First, while conservatives toyed with laissez-faire, they quickly abandoned it in all important areas of policy-making. For them, it now serves as nothing more than an enabling myth, used to hide the true nature of our world. Ironically, only the progressive still takes the call for “market solutions” seriously, and this is the major barrier to formulating sensible policy. Second, the “industrial state” has been replaced by a predator state, a coalition of relentless opponents of the very idea of a “public interest”, whose purpose is to master the state structure in order to empower a high plutocracy with nothing more than vile and rapacious goals. Finally, the “corporate republic” created by the likes of Dick Cheney is highly unstable, a formula for national failure. Progressives must wrest control from the reactionaries before it is too late for restoration of America as the world’s financial anchor, technological leader, and promoter of collective security.

31Boldwin
      ID: 58452178
      Wed, May 28, 2008, 21:47
First, while conservatives toyed with laissez-faire, they quickly abandoned it in all important areas of policy-making.

He's conflating neo-cons with conservatives?

Ironically, only the progressive still takes the call for market solutions seriously

Is that what he calls Hillary-care? How do you take this guy seriously after that whopper?

Actually this guy would have a huge point if he had only turned his attention towards 'formerly' communist states which now function as pure predator capitalist havens. Only party vampires need apply but the market is otherwise unconstrained by anything other than the corrupt hands out for their bribe.
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