| 0 |
Subject: San Francisco voters thumb nose at constitution
Posted by: katietx
- [56723120] Thu, Nov 10, 2005, 20:06
City-wide ban on handguns passes
Repercussions of this should be interesting. |
| Only the 50 most recent replies are currently shown. Click on this text to display hidden posts as well. |
| 96 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 18:20
|
Are you saying I shouldn't be allowed to have a weapon in my home or are you just trolling again?
|
| 97 | Tree
ID: 397571710
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 18:44
|
i'm saying that owning a gun bring a lot of responsibility. and that many, many people who own guns refuse to accept that responsibility.
i am adamantly opposed to the banning of hand guns completely, but i am equally as adamantly in favor of tighter restrictions on who owns a gun, and how they can obtain a gun, and anything else related to gun ownership.
|
| 98 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 19:03
|
i am equally as adamantly in favor of tighter restrictions on who owns a gun, and how they can obtain a gun, and anything else related to gun ownership.
Such as?
|
| 99 | Tree
ID: 397571710
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 20:01
|
tell what Box - you start answering my questions that have been hanging out in that other thread for a couple days, and i'll start answering yours.
but until then, i've got no time for you and your cutesy little games.
|
| 100 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 20:09
|
Yeah that's what I thought.
|
| 101 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 20:14
|
As you may know, I was a cop for more than 30 years in one of the largest jurisdictions in the country. Worked patrol for eight years, and the rest as a detective, both undercover surveillance and investigations. Had many experiences wherein guns were used by both good guys and bad.
Cannot remember one time where a victim was at home during a burglary where he/she defended their home by shooting a suspect. (A huge majority of burglars want nothing to deter them, especially someone inside the house they are breaking into). Of course there was the occasional cat burglar, who almost always was wierd to begin with. And of course, rapists such as the Night Stalker. But by and large, most burglaries were either to support dope habits, committed by juveniles for quick profits, or by someone who knew the victim, and knew they were not at home.
Did have one case where a victim interupted a suspect setting fire to his boat at 3AM (can't remember the motivation). The boat had been parked in his (victim's) driveway. Victim shot the suspect as he ran away.
Had several experiences where small store owners had shot robbery suspects, including once where we had been following a group of suspects, who robbed a mom and pop store. We had observed the suspects enter the store, then saw one of them holding a gun. Within seconds, we observed the suspects running out of the store, hell bent for leather trying to get back to their car. The Korean store owner was in hot pursuit chasing them with guns ablazing from both hands. We ended up busting all of the suspects after a short chase, some shots also being fired by us.
And of course, the large number of cases wherein a relative, usually a husband or wife, had shot a spouse in anger. And the cases where one group of gangbangers had shot someone who they believed to be an enemy gangbanger, or an innocent bystander.
When I see the subject of citizens carrying guns openly being debated, I often think back to one particular case I investigated as a detective. A couple guys were each with a friend. These two guys saw each other in a park one morning, and decided to shoot the bull because they knew each other, so they sat on a park table and had a smoke. Each of the guys who had been with these two did not know any of the others there. They both had guns with them, as they were both gun enthusiasts who liked to go to the range, and had taken gun safety classes. Both were around 27 years old, and had no records. One of them wanted to stay by his car, while the other joined the two on the park table. That guy called out to the guy at the car, saying something like "you too good to join us". Other guy took offense, and words were exchanged. One of them pulled his gun out (unknown which one pulled his gun out first). The other said he felt threatened, so he pulled his gun out. Both told the other to back off, and then they shot each other. One lost an eye, the other was shot in the testicles. Both lived.
Thing was that they both had almost identicle stories as to which was the aggressor who had initiated things to the point where shots were fired, and the witnesses each said that things happened so fast, they couldn't tell, or they had not seen who started things. The parents of each shooting victim were adamant that the other shooter be prosecuted, that their sons were nonagressive types who had never been involved in something like this. The D.A. had no choice other tham to decline to file a complaint, as there was insufficient evidence as to either guy not acting in self defense.
I always believed that had these two guys been unarmed, the incident would have just ended up as your normal every day fist fight. It seems apparent to me that if a majority of citizens carried during their routine activites, that cases such as this would become common place.
|
| 102 | Tree
ID: 397571710
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 22:09
|
Yeah that's what I thought.
again. i've been waiting for your answer for a few days. i think it's pretty obvious why neither you nor baldwin want to address the issue...
|
| 103 | Tree
ID: 397571710
Sun, Aug 17, 2008, 22:16
|
bibA - thank you for that post. obviously, there's plenty of other anecdotal that supports what you are saying. but the loons who think nearly everyone should have gun tend to chalk your tales up as rarities, when the reality is that they're much more common than the whole "i would shoot a burglar if they came into my home" scenario...
|
| 104 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 03:57
|
What's common as rainwater is someone preventing a rape or robbery by merely flashing or having a gun. bibA's tale is so rare it would make a nice surprise scenario for a tv episode and I am sure plenty of gun-grabbing Hollywood producers would jump at the chance.
|
| 105 | Tree
ID: 22753185
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 06:55
|
What's common as rainwater is someone preventing a rape or robbery by merely flashing or having a gun.
yea? do YOU know anyone who fits this example? (sure you do).
there is no way in hell that what you're suggesting is "common as rainwater," and you have zero evidence to back that up, whether anecdotal, or statistical.
|
| 106 | Razor
ID: 545172413
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 08:29
|
Boldwin, you aren't even trying to present rational, well-evidenced arguments any more. You could have phrased your opinion in such a way that it did not look like a bunch of hot air.
|
| 107 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:03
|
Outstanding post, biba! What a great story.
As for post 104, go back to retirement, old man, your brain is swiss cheese.
|
| 108 | Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:21
|
No cartoon Zen?
|
| 109 | Tree
ID: 67581211
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:26
|
i love how the guy so quick to call others a troll, pretty much can't stop being one himself. be it post 108 in this thread, or post 328 in this thead, trolling is in full affect.
|
| 111 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:30
|
Baldwin - Do you actually believe that if almost everyone carried, that incidents of shots being fired in anger would be so rare?
One example - Cases of road rage where one party cuts another off, he replies by flipping that guy off. Realistically, these events normally end there. If both were legally carrying, wouldn't you concede that many times one would respond by flashing his piece in anger, the other would answer by showing his, leading to.....you do get my drift, don't you?
Another thought - In a society where almost everyone carries; normally, many of these people drink now and then, whether after work at happy hour, stopping off at a bar, at a friends, whatever. Is it realistic to believe that these folks will usually leave their guns at home or locked away before drinking? Or do you think their judgement would not become impaired by these activities?
I would concede that in a society where everyone carries, that many times bad guys would be more hesitant to commit crimes against the random victim, fearing that he/she would be able to defend themselves.
Personally tho, I am in a position where I can legally carry (retired law enforcement officers usually qualify to carry a concealed weapon). However, I choose not to do so. My guns are locked away at home. Don't want to constantly worry about leaving my gun in my car and having it stolen. And, I just have not ever been a victim of some random crime where I need to defend myself with deadly force, nor do I live with the fear of it happening imminently.
|
| 112 | ivan
ID: 35725812
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 12:32
|
I always believed that had these two guys been unarmed, the incident would have just ended up as your normal every day fist fight. It seems apparent to me that if a majority of citizens carried during their routine activites, that cases such as this would become common place.
i come to the oposite conclusion, had they both known before hand that they were both armed, maybe they show more restraint initially.
it's a micro view of the cold war, if you know the other guy has the bomb, you don't push them too hard.
|
| 113 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 13:05
|
Ivan
Quite right. Guns make for respectful polite neighbors.
Razor and bibA
The evidence is clear and has been shown on every forum ad nauseum but you dislike the results so badly that you block the memory out.
States that go concealed carry see a reduction in gun violence.
Look over the research and forget it again as you will because it doesn't fit your emotional gut feeling about guns.
|
| 114 | Boxman
ID: 337352111
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 13:13
|
i love how the guy so quick to call others a troll, pretty much can't stop being one himself.
Yawn.
bibA:And, I just have not ever been a victim of some random crime where I need to defend myself with deadly force, nor do I live with the fear of it happening imminently.
My outlook is that one of the reasons I own firearms is so that my family doesn't become victims in our own home in the first place. I don't live in fear of an imminent attack on my person or property, but in the event it does happen we have something to respond with other than a 10 minute wait for the police.
|
| 115 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 17:25
|
ivan - I see your point made in 112, and agree that at times it would hold true, that if two angry parties are aware that the other is armed, that a disagreement may not escalate beyond words.
However, it would appear to me that where two guys are angry to the point of it becoming a physical conflict, that if both are unarmed, the conflict would probably not result in one of them shooting the other.
Another question for those of you that favor an armed populous - Recently the local law enforcement agency in Compton Calif. offered its citizens something like $50 for each gun they turned in to be destroyed. Obviously an effort to get less guns on the street. Do you guys feel that the law enforcement agency had their priorities backwards?
|
| 116 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 17:37
|
Because they end up overpaying for non functional rusted pieces of junk? We could call it a program to upgrade gang arsenals.
|
| 117 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 17:49
|
Have you actual read any of those studies, Baldwin? Very equivocal evidence, at best.
I read one a while back looking at shall carry in Cali, that showed a non-sig doubling of violence.
The main conclusion I've come to is: not enough evidence to say either way.
There is a task-force working on designing studies to try and answer some of the questions regarding the impact of a variety of laws on crime and violence, but it's going to be a while.
Anyone who says "the evidence is clear" either hasn't bothered to read the evidence or is an ultra-maroon.
|
| 118 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 17:56
|
I've looked at the Florida example specifics before. I know the only study gun-grabbers ever made a big deal about has been proven fraudulent.
|
| 119 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:00
|
All I'm saying is that, even on your pro-gun site has so much evidence in both directions that I don't think any thinking man could possibly say the answer is "clear". And I had thought you were a thinking man.
|
| 120 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:27
|
I have been in the thick of many forum gun discussions for a decade and never seen a study successfully used aginst the pro-gun side until the Kellerman study [which was debunked about the time they were using it against me on Salon Table-Talk].
|
| 121 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:30
|
bibA:Another question for those of you that favor an armed populous - Recently the local law enforcement agency in Compton Calif. offered its citizens something like $50 for each gun they turned in to be destroyed. Obviously an effort to get less guns on the street. Do you guys feel that the law enforcement agency had their priorities backwards?
I will leave conspiracy theories aside here because in all honesty I believe these are just slow methods to disarm the populace via an economic carrot.
Now, I think it is a completely useless allocation of public funds to have gun buyback programs. Do you really think that Johnny Crackdealer is going to go "Man I could use $50 for my Tech-9! Madden is coming out for the 360 and that'd be a good way to pay for it."?
No!
The people that turn in those guns are primarily ones where $50 is a lot of money to them. I'm sure there's other circumstances too like they just had a kid and think it's too dangerous to have both a gun and a kid in the house or grandpa just died and they don't have a need for a hunting rifle. It's a weeks worth of groceries or a tank of gas and with the way the economy is would a law abiding well intentioned poor person rather have a 357 or a tank of gas?
If the effort is to get "guns off the street", Mission Accomplished! I would hope cops would rather get guns away from the bad guys so in this case it's Mission Failed!
|
| 122 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:30
|
But specifically no I haven't opened up the studies in my latest link. Been there, done that. Your side speaking generically has never been anything but a deceptive and emotional one. I don't believe anyone on your side really wants to bring any rigor to the debate but If you build that stadium they will come. My side will be there well represented, even if I am retired.
|
| 123 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:49
|
What the heck is "my side"?
I own guns and grew up hunting. I have an open mind when it comes to gun laws, and have not formed solid opinions.
Mainly because the data is so crappy.
|
| 124 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 18:50
|
Might be a business oportunity in them thar crazy liberal big city gun buy backs. Dunno how much government red tape would add to the procurement cost. As a bonus it's great way to get to know the ATF!
|
| 125 | Tree
ID: 177421817
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 21:29
|
What the heck is "my side"?
I own guns and grew up hunting. I have an open mind when it comes to gun laws, and have not formed solid opinions.
it would probably blow the minds of both Baldwin and Boxman to know that i'm taking shooting lessons and a gun safety course this fall.
|
| 126 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 21:58
|
I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy allofasudden...wahappen?
|
| 127 | Tree
ID: 177421817
Mon, Aug 18, 2008, 23:45
|
I'm feeling all warm and fuzzy allofasudden...wahappen?
that's called reality. it's a world with many different colors, not just black and white.
i know that's dizzying for you...
|
| 128 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 06:05
|
i'm taking shooting lessons and a gun safety course this fall.
For what purpose? Is Santa giving you a gun for Christmas?
|
| 129 | Tree
ID: 17753195
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 07:00
|
For what purpose? Is Santa giving you a gun for Christmas?
because of people like you and Baldwin, it's a skill i believe i need to have. as we continue to attack other nations while you guys cheer it on, it's only a matter of time before someone attacks us.
never mind the fact that conservatives are getting more and more violent in their words and actions.
|
| 130 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 07:11
|
Don't take cheap shots at Tree, Box. Don't you know he has a religion [which he won't discuss], is against abortion personally and fights like a hellcat against it in his own 'family' life, is pro guns...and PD says Obama is practically a conservative.
I love it when they call themselves the reality based community. It amuses me no end.
It does not surprise me that Tree wants to be defended by a gun but wants to deny everyone else the right. Liberal hypocrits with armed body guards are all over the place.
They are all about two different sets of rules.
|
| 131 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 07:21
|
never mind the fact that conservatives are getting more and more violent in their words and actions.
So you're arming yourself for what I'm guessing is a forthcoming civil war between conservatives and liberals? And you call others crackpots?
Boldwin:It does not surprise me that Tree wants to be defended by a gun but wants to deny everyone else the right. Liberal hypocrits with armed body guards are all over the place.
I'm convinced that Tree's posts are meant to get a rise. Anyone as ignorant or dim as he portrays himself would've forgotten to breathe years ago.
Sadly though, Tree will never leave this board. He's primarily here for fantasy sports, but the political forum gives him something to wax intelligent to his friends that he "discusses politics on the internet". Little do they know he's the most venomous, intolerant, death celebrating, least contributing person on the site.
|
| 132 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 08:50
|
It does not surprise me that Tree wants to be defended by a gun but wants to deny everyone else the right.
from Tree's #97..
i am adamantly opposed to the banning of hand guns completely, but i am equally as adamantly in favor of tighter restrictions on who owns a gun, and how they can obtain a gun, and anything else related to gun ownership.
So what we appear to have here is some of that Ann Coulter-style hyperbole. And I suppose we can deduce from their posts that Boxman and Baldwin want unfettered access to guns for everyone.
In the same vein as pornographers have distorted the 1st amendment, so has the guns for everyone without regulation or restriction crowd distorted the 2nd.
At least we can feel secure knowing that those dangerous marijuana smokers are still being jailed, even if it adversely affects the economies of local convenience stores.
|
| 133 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 08:59
|
but the political forum gives him something to wax intelligent to his friends that he "discusses politics on the internet".
Not sure how that plays in a heavy weight wrestling crowd.
Anyone as ignorant or dim as he portrays himself would've forgotten to breathe years ago.
ROFL, yeah but he has me convinced. He can both act and manage a fantasy sport team? Dare I say, 'multi-talented'?
|
| 134 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 09:02
|
OK, you can come out of the closet, Tree. You are actually a hardrock conservative but you just take the opposite position to everything I post because you can't stand my guts. I see how it is. 8>
|
| 135 | Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 10:02
|
Baldy and Box...various responses.
Don't you know he has a religion [which he won't discuss],
since when won't i discuss my religion? i think i've made it pretty clear i'm jewish. i have mentioned that two of my brothers served in the israeli army, i've probably mentioned that my dad and step mom are orthodox, and i've mentioned that my own personal beliefs question the existence of God, but lean toward the existence of something out there, albeit one that has little control over anything that goes on in the universe.
what about you and YOUR religion, Baldwin? hmmm?
is against abortion personally and fights like a hellcat against it in his own 'family' life,
so i'm against abortion personally, and i would hope if i partner of mine accidently got pregnant, she would choose to NOT have an abortion. is that a problem for you?
is pro guns..
in your black and white world, yea, i suppose. but if you're going to attempt to quote me, don't play games. i have caveats about gun ownership, and i've made that clear as well.
It does not surprise me that Tree wants to be defended by a gun but wants to deny everyone else the right. Liberal hypocrits with armed body guards are all over the place.
i like dogs. and by this, you have deduce that i also believe aliens from mars armed with asparagus ray guns are out to destroy mankind.
seriously. that's the kind of leap you just took.
i want to learn how to fire a gun. i want to be able to defend myself, IF NECESSARY. i don't want to own a gun, i don't want anyone in my home owning a gun, and i'm not overly comfortable being in someone's house where there is a gun.
but when all hell breaks loose as people like you continue to shoot people like me, i want to be able to kick you in the f*cking face, take your gun, and keep you and your cronies at bay.
So you're arming yourself for what I'm guessing is a forthcoming civil war between conservatives and liberals? And you call others crackpots?
i'm not the one who shot up a bunch of churchgoers because they were liberal.
Anyone as ignorant or dim as he portrays himself would've forgotten to breathe years ago.
i would be more than willing to take an IQ test and compare my score to yours, trollboy.
Sadly though, Tree will never leave this board. He's primarily here for fantasy sports, but the political forum...
yea, check my posts. i'm much more active here than i am on the rest of the board.
Not sure how that plays in a heavy weight wrestling crowd.
i'd expect nothing less than a stereotype from you. perhaps if you'd actually seek to educate yourself about things before you spoke, you might actually regain the respect you long ago lost from many of the posters on this board.
like any thing else, there are also neanderthals in wrestling. there are also guys with MBAs, PhDs, and so forth - and that includes not only the people who run the business (and make no bones about it, it is a BUSINESS for those like me who want to make money in it), but even those who actually step foot into the ring to wrestle.
OK, you can come out of the closet, Tree. You are actually a hardrock conservative
no Baldwin, i think and form my own opinions, independent of some mis-guided "church", "political party", or whatever other sort of mishmash of brainwash organizations you celebrate and subscribe to.
my world is NOT black and white. i will lean left on a lot of things, right on other things, and straight up the middle on still others - and everything inbetween as well.
i'm also not opposed to compromise in certain situations if it serves the greater good. that's life in reality, not some black and white good vs. evil cocoon of buffoonary...
PV - thanks for post 132.
|
| 136 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 10:57
|
So Tree leans over to the next guy attending a cage match and says...
|
| 137 | Seattle Zen
ID: 8748191
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 11:02
|
I'll trade you Mark Loreta for Alex and Francisco Rodriguez and your first round pick next year.
|
| 138 | Seattle Zen
ID: 8748191
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 11:06
|
or perhaps he said, "I just paid .116 of an ounce of gold for a barrel of oil. Damn, just last month I had to pony up .168 of an ounce!"
|
| 139 | Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 11:11
|
So Tree leans over to the next guy attending a cage match and says...
...well, during the last weekend of shows i attended earlier this month we were discussing VP candidates and off short drilling...
and not a weekend goes by where my friend Dylan doesn't tirade about how badly Dennis Kucinich got screwed over again.
I'll trade you Mark Loreta for Alex and Francisco Rodriguez and your first round pick next year.
ZING!
see, now THAT's funny. if only Baldwin and Boxman had a modicum of your sense of humour.
|
| 140 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 12:53
|
Am I the only one wondering what off short drilling is?
|
| 141 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 13:15
|
Yup.
|
| 142 | Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 14:28
|
Am I the only one wondering what off short drilling is?
says the guy who uses the word "thot" repeatedly as if it's a real word.
typical of you though - i respond to your idiocy from posts 130 and beyond, and you can't even wrap your head around the fact that you were taken to school...again.
so you resort to mocking a typo. so, typical.
|
| 143 | Boldwin
ID: 176322815
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 16:23
|
Typo or freudian slip?
|
| 144 | Tree
ID: 13714198
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 16:38
|
well Baldwin, truth be told, the way my girl looks in short shorts, you'd wanna drill her too. i do love me a hot california girl.
a helluva lot more than those moderately attractive conservative politicos that adorn your locker.
|
| 145 | DWetzel at work
ID: 278201415
Tue, Aug 19, 2008, 17:00
|
In the same vein as pornographers have distorted the 1st amendment, so has the guns for everyone without regulation or restriction crowd distorted the 2nd.
Guns, schmuns. I want nukes. The 2nd amendment says it's OK, right?
|
| 146 | ivan
ID: 35725812
Wed, Aug 20, 2008, 15:38
|
Another question for those of you that favor an armed populous - Recently the local law enforcement agency in Compton Calif. offered its citizens something like $50 for each gun they turned in to be destroyed. Obviously an effort to get less guns on the street. Do you guys feel that the law enforcement agency had their priorities backwards?
i don't have an issue w/ gun buybacks, they may not be an automatic solution to the gun issue, but they are good for getting unwanted guns out of circulation.
|
If you believe a recent post violates the policy on Civility and Respect,
you may report the abuse via email to moderators@rotoguru1.com | |
|
|
Post a reply to this message: (But first, how about checking out this sponsor?)
|
|