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Subject: Obama accepts the Democratic Nomination for Pres.
Posted by: Tree
- [57142820] Thu, Aug 28, 2008, 22:53
this historic event, and this acceptance speech, deserves its own thread. (especially with 440 posts on the other Obama thread) |
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| 28 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 12:59
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So in PV's world anything good that happens in a Democrats term is a result of sound policies and anything bad that happens is because of their predecessor's policies.
No, that's a world you're making up.
The trade deficit is for the most part due to our dependence on foreign oil that is a result of failed policies of the Democratic/environmental lobbies.
You mean like Reagan dropping Carter's energy independence policies and Bush 41's offshore drilling moratorium?
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| 29 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:07
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anything good that happens in a Democrats term is a result of sound policies and anything bad that happens is because of their predecessor's policies
weykool - are you any different? Or do you actually give Clinton credit for balancing the budget (at the end of his presidency Clinton reported a surplus of $559 billion), 8 years of relative peace, and being a somewhat popular president with a majority of the country (his approval rating was 68% when he left office)?
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| 30 | weykool
ID: 2842717
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:29
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Biba:
I believe that Presidents are like baseball managers.
They get too much credit for when things are going well and too much blame when things are going bad.
If the team has good players they win if not they lose.
The economy runs in cycles with ups and downs and there is little the government can do to stimulate it one way or the other.
The best we can do is hope to lessen the peaks and the valleys.
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| 31 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:33
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Fat and bloated corporations go under all the time and are replaced by up and coming innovative companies
God, I wish that were the case. They died because of the "innovation", (actually lack of regulatory oversight), and they didn't "go under", the Fed essentially bought them for 29 billion, and gift-wrapped them for Morgan. You and I paid for Bear.
Under Republicans we are slaves to the markets, with leeches sucking our life-blood and innovative spirit dry, instead of building a framework where the markets work for us and spur innovation instead of graft and corruption.
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| 32 | Perm Dude
ID: 54759298
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:47
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Well, I think talking about how the economy runs is a different thing than talking about how the government runs.
As the largest employer in the country (and as the chief regulator across all industries) government holds huge sway, economically, but much of it is psychological. This doesn't mean it is meaningless: The price of gasoline is largely based upon psychological factors.
Obama, however, is running to make government better, regardless of how much effect that government might have on different areas of the economy.
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| 33 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 13:55
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and innovative spirit dry, instead of building a framework where the markets work for us and spur innovation
The USA has out-innovated socialist Europe 10,000 to one and you want to bring us socialism and big-state heavy-handedness towards business.
You are too intelligent for this lunacy.
Dems deep sixing every energy exploration, nuke plant, refinery, nuke waste disposal project, etc has really made the markets work for us.
There are moments when I dispair at ever understanding intelligent liberals saying stupid things.
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| 34 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:00
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Every time in history, including the current one, that we've gone too far in deregulation has ended in economic disaster for all but those at the tippy top.
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| 35 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:15
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saying stupid things.
"Dems deep sixing every energy exploration" qualifies as saying stupid things.
What you mean is Dems(and a lesser percentage of Republicans) not giving complete carte blanche to extraction industries to drill and mine wherever they please.
Do you realize how many acres of public land are currently leased and producing energy in this country? Is it necessary for me to once again post the millions of barrels of crude and natural gas; the tons of coal and uranium that Utah, Colorado and Wyoming contribute every year? Do I have to post the hundreds of testimonials from conservative residents of these states who oppose extending more leases in their cherished hunting, fishing and other recreational areas? Do I have to point out that every Dem is not Nancy Pelosi?
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| 36 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:16
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Seriously, own it or retract it. Are you saying socialism and big government are effective promoters of market innovation? Not speaking of bigger and better straightjackets...actual inventions and growth?
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| 37 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:23
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Yes, regulation evens the playing-field, encourages competition and spurs innovation. If you want to call that socialism, that's your affair.
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| 38 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:25
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What we've seen in the last 8 years is lack of risk taking, because it was so easy for the blood-suckers with connections to make money hand over fist while taking little risk at all. That doesn't spur innovation, that encourages stagnation, corruption and graft.
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| 39 | nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 5047110
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 14:58
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the Fed essentially bought them for 29 billion, and gift-wrapped them for Morgan. You and I paid for Bear.
Probably the wrong thread but the Fed did get 29 billion in Mortgage backed securities. Unless none of those loans are repaid, and the houses backing them are worthless, the Fed won't lose anything close to 29 Billion if anything.
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| 40 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:04
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I've been working on a thread 'vampire capitolism and whitewashed graves' that ties in nicely with that. You are onto something but you don't know what it is.
Still socialism is the enemy of innovation. Red tape is the enemy of innovation. Any entry bar to market participation is an enemy of innovation. Monopoly private or public is an enemy of innovation. Most regulation is an enemy of innovation. Taxes are an enemy of innovation. Limits on intellectual property rights are an enemy of innovation. Limits on any property rights is an enemy of innovation. Limits on profitability of risk taking is an enemy of innovation.
Almost everything big government lovers do hinders growth and innovation.
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| 41 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:05
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The houses don't have to worthless for the MBS to be worthless.
My optimistic guess is 50 cents on the dollar, because they claimed they were going through and trying to get the better quality ones.
But a lot of these MBSs are turning out to be worth nothing at all, for reasons I won't go into here.
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| 42 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:13
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JP Morgan sells 6.7 Billion in MBS for just 22 cents on the dollar.
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| 43 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:16
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Baldwin - Nearly all the things you list in 40 can, and recently been caused by the lack of regulation. Established companies that are allowed to have carte-blanche in instituting moats to protect their monopolies and kill or discourage competition.
There is such a thing as the right amount of regulation.
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| 44 | weykool
ID: 2842717
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 15:34
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Bili:
On what planet are you referencing when you claim more regulation spurs economic growth/innovation?
Perhaps you can offer some specific examples of what you are talking about?
There is such a thing as the right amount of regulation.
On this we can agree....as little as possible.
Wasnt the sale of gasoline regulated?
As I recall the prices were very low...in the .69 per gallon neighborhood.
Of course the only problem was you had to wait in line a couple of hours and hope they didnt sell their allotment before you made it to the front of the line.
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| 45 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:15
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Examples - I'll give you a couple off the top of my head that I am interested in.
Regulation that increases competition:
This differs by MLS system to some extent, but the gist is that Real Estate brokers have a cartel - they have a "standard" 6% fee model set up, and they are continuing to resist any sort of alternative, "innovative" business model that threatens their cartel. They were withholding listing information from companies such as Redfin (1%, limited service business model), effectively stifling competition. Regulators stepped in and forced them to share the information, effectively breaking down the anti-competitive wall they had set up. There are still barriers to competition, but it's much better than it used to be.
Regulation that protects the consumer and taxpayer:
This is an example of regulatory oversight that should have existed but didn't. There was little to no regulatory oversight over investment banks and mortgage brokers and other lenders regarding the loans they were making and the securities they were creating from them and selling investors. I hope I don't need to point out the down-side of this lack of regulation. Just look around you. I estimate the government and the taxpayer will end up ponying up about half a trillion to save the economy from the excesses of this behavior that should have been tightly regulated to avoid the problem in the first place.
I can go on and on. Insurance examples. Health care examples. Technology. Internet. Automobiles. Blah blah blah.
It all comes down to the same story. Protect the consumer and make sure that their is a competitive market place. I don't understand how that is socialism, but if you want to keep tarring with that tired, outdated and mismatched brush, I can't really stop you.
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| 46 | Perm Dude
ID: 23752914
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:24
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I'm sure drugs would be a heck of a lot cheaper if they didn't have to go through that pesky regulation phase.
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| 47 | Perm Dude
ID: 23752914
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:28
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38 million
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| 48 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:28
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Those are exceptions. Usually government red tape is inefficient and harmful to everyone involved except the government worker whose job involves shuffling that particular form.
After 50 years of living you haven't been in business if your experience with government is that government is helpful. Even if you weren't in business the only time government even seems helpful is when they are attempting to fix something they already deliberately sabotaged in the original marxist sense of the term.
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| 49 | Perm Dude
ID: 23752914
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:34
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Exceptions to what? Your own rules? So what?
Government, by and large these 8 years, has proven itself to be unhelpful because it is run by those who believe that and are determined to prove it. "We the People" can do much better than electing clowns who have no respect for what people can do together, when they put their minds to it.
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| 50 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:36
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I'm sure the MLS system don't consider it particularly "helpful" for the government to step in either.
Sure, there is poorly run government, particularly when staffed by incompetent cronies as Bush chose to do. But their is also government that is efficient, well-run, and essential to preserving the very heart of capitalism as well as the ideals of our Republic. If you want anti-regulatory anarchy, there are places where you can find it, but I don't think you will like them very much.
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| 51 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:40
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But their is also government that is efficient, well-run, and essential - A line on America's tombstone
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| 52 | Perm Dude
ID: 23752914
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:42
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You've been burying the government for some time (and, since Bush took office, cheered on the trashing of the Constitution). You won't vote, yet take for granted all the benefits of a government such as clean water, sky safety, roads, safe drugs, and first response protection.
You want it all and yet are unwilling to put forth one single responsible step yourself to help continue to make it happen. I think you are secretly a liberal. You, like the Administration, exhibit the worst qualities of those you profess to hate.
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| 53 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:43
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To go along with socialist's other great epitaph...'the USSR didn't invalidate socialism, we just didn't find the right socialism'.
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| 54 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:50
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It's impossible to discuss anything rationally with someone who equates anything that isn't anarchy with socialism.
The world isn't black and white, Baldwin, and you really need to shift your paradigm away from "the USSR's totalitarian regime sucked, so giving babies vaccines at a public clinic must suck to."
You clearly can fathom nuance, you just appear to not really want to.
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| 55 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:53
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Also difficult is trying to have a rational debate with someone who actually believes 'waste, fraud and abuse' will ever be solved and big government will magically start working efficiently.
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| 56 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 16:57
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Where did I say that?
There is a balance. There is such a thing as bad regulation. There is such a thing as too much regulation.
But there is also such a thing as essential regulation, if you are going to use the markets for the betterment of our society instead of letting the markets use us.
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| 57 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:15
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Synchronicity
Watching Seinfeld rerun and the mom and pop cobbler shop gets closed because Kramer inadvertantly brought a 48 year old code violation to the attention of the city.
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| 58 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:16
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Of course Kramer thot he was trying to save mom and pop shops from big business.
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| 59 | weykool
ID: 2842717
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:17
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Isnt your example of the real estate market nothing more than the need to enforce our anti-trust laws?
Anything taken to an extreme can be bad.
A free market that has zero oversight can lead to monopolies that end up being worse than government over regulation.
Perhaps you would like to offer another example to support your theory?
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| 60 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:18
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Let's move out of the realm of fiction for a bit, maybe. I came up with some real examples where regulation enhanced competition and where it would have stopped the economic destruction of millions of American families, as well as saving the tax-payer half a trillion.
Show me something besides a fictional account of a code violation. That's pathetic.
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| 61 | Perm Dude
ID: 23752914
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:20
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It is, however, in the realm of Dan Quayle, a recent trophy candidate himself.
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| 62 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:26
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In 1960 a simple operation would cost @ $100 dollars everthing added together. The iron triangle of Dem legislators, Dem legislators out of office and practicing law, and Dem legislators out of office and working in the insurance industry, drove that operation into the thousands.
All the while trumpetting their concern for the common man and their bleeding heart wish to bring us 'free' healthcare.
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| 63 | Boldwin
ID: 6755268
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:32
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Really Bili, post your draft postmortem. I could care less about this campaign. Didn't watch a second of the convention. Lets talk about something interesting.
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| 64 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:36
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Well, since I've worked for both the insurance industry as well as the health care industry, I can assure you that the reasons for an operation costing more today than 50 years ago is many and varied. Inflation, improved procedures, new technologies, and yes, new safety regulations, and higher insurance rates along with it. I can also assure you that my coworkers in the insurance industry were far more likely to be Republicans.
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| 65 | Pancho Villa
ID: 51546319
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:38
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The iron triangle of Dem legislators, Dem legislators out of office and practicing law, and Dem legislators out of office and working in the insurance industry, drove that operation into the thousands.
More fiction.
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| 66 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 17:41
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I don't disagree with your assessment, Weykool. Like I said, balance. You have to fund regulators to enforce the existing rules, however, and that's been the majority of the problem of late. Too few regulators.
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| 67 | biliruben
ID: 38751812
Fri, Aug 29, 2008, 18:02
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...and actually the MLS issue went to court, and was decided by the judicial branch.
Are there even any regulators left for this type of thing? In Washington State, there are only a handful to regulate all the 10s of thousands of brokerages out there. Vastly understaffed. They don't have time to do anything except the extremely egregious cases, and then generally only after the damage has been done.
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| 68 | Perm Dude
ID: 577243010
Sun, Aug 31, 2008, 14:51
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Holy shiite--the Daily Show hits one out of the park with this one:
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| 69 | Baldwin
ID: 2583316
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 07:45
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The funniest thing is that PD doesn't see any humor in there. It's all for real. The universe has been conspiring since Pangea to produce Obama.
On another sports site someone has as their tagline, "vote for the antichrist, he's so damn charming".
No Obama is not actually the antichrist but PD's brain shortened that term by 4 letters when he read it.
PD's so bursting with koolaid his eyes are yellow.
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| 70 | tree
ID: 46713110
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:35
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baldwin - i'm pretty sure PD posted it because he absolutely sees the humour in there. i dare say that it is YOUR blindness to anything left that you think we fail to see the humour in something as riotous at that daily show piece.
it's definitely ironic that you're pointing out blindness, when its pretty clear here the blindness is totally on you.
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| 71 | Perm Dude
ID: 577243010
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 09:47
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OMG! Baldwin thinks such an over the top video is something I take as real.
Jesus Baldwin--you're an idiot. Your cynicism has turned you into a twisted human being, unable even to smile anymore. Stay away from politics before it starts to poison your family life, if it hasn't already.
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| 72 | bibA
Leader
ID: 261028117
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 12:58
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Prediction - Baldwin "was just kidding because he knew PD was just kidding about Daily, because he knew Daily was just kidding about Obama"
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| 73 | Baldwin
ID: 2583316
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 14:18
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PD, you've been giving full credit to his messianic pretentions.
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| 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 577243010
Mon, Sep 01, 2008, 14:40
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You, who purport to know that Coulter is satire didn't get the clear Daily Show satire because you mistook my support for Obama as messianic credit?
What a sad and pathetic response.
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| 75 | walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Sep 10, 2008, 08:59
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Guardian (UK): World's Verdict if Obama is not Elected
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| 76 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 19:33
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I know the protests at the DNC were not given nearly the amount of coverage as the RNC, but the police and prosecutors have really stunk up the courthouse so far:
City Fails to Convict DNC Protesters; Three-day jury trial ends in acquittal; hung jury.
Denver Judge rules that no reasonable person could convict defendant, dismisses case.
DENVER – On Wednesday, October 22, the Denver City Attorney's office failed in its attempt to prosecute the first of a series of jury trials of individuals arrested at demonstrations during the Democratic National Convention. After a three-day trial, a six-person jury came back with a deadlocked verdict. Judge Karen Bowers subsequently dismissed all charges against one of the defendants, Eli Hardy, finding the evidence so scant that "no reasonable person could convict Mr. Hardy." The jury also found there was not enough evidence to convict the other defendant, Tiffany Bray, who may face a re-trial in the next 45 days.
In addition to the cases of Bray and Hardy, the City has dismissed seven of the first nine DNC-related cases which were set for trial this week.
"The City is on an impressive losing streak," said Brian Vicente, Denver lawyer and director of the People's Law Project. "But the real loser is the Denver taxpayer who foots the bill for these needless prosecutions."
The Denver City Attorney's office is slated to prosecute another fifty DNC-related individuals over the months of October, November, and December. The cost of these trials is expected to be high. The trials of Bray and Hardy required a full three-day commitment from six jurors, a judge and clerk, three prosecutors, a handful of defense lawyers, and also the testimony of numerous police officers.
"One has to wonder if the City's limited resources should be spent on more important prosecutions," said Vicente. "Is Its hard to believe that prosecuting sixty citizens for "Street Obstruction" during the Democratic National Convention warrants this use of resources."
These trials stem largely from the mass arrest of more than 100 individuals at a demonstration on August 25, 2008, at the intersection of 15th St. and Court Place in Denver. Individuals were uniformly charged with municipal offenses, including Obstruction of a Street and Failure to Obey a Lawful Order. Prosecutors subsequently dropped the Failure to Obey a Lawful Order charges against a number of defendants, leaving the Obstruction charge which carries a penalty of up to one year in jail and a $1000 fine.
The People's Law Project recruited and trained more than 30 attorneys to provide pro-bono representation for those arrested at free-speech events during the Convention. The People's Law Project is a nonprofit organization dedicated to protecting First Amendment rights. It is a project of the National Lawyers Guild. For more information on the People's Law Project please visit http://www.DNC-PLP.org
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| 77 | Razor
ID: 11992219
Thu, Oct 23, 2008, 21:17
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Arresting peaceful protesters is so anti-American. The national media should have ran with these stories until the DA had no choice but to drop these charges.
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