| 0 |
Subject: A white, "African American"
Posted by: sarge33rd
- [211332319] Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 18:04
OK, first off, I'm not sure this deserved its own thread, but there is room for discussion here and it would derail anything else. Second (and perhpas more significantly) I can not believe I am about to quote WND. (what IS the world coming to??)
White African American suspended
In short, kid was born in S Africa and 6 years ago his family came to the US. He and a coupkle buddies, circulated posters, promoting him for voting in a student awards contest for the "academically" most acheived African-American. The school suspended him, for posing as a Black when he is in fact white.
He is in fact also, the only ACTUAL African-American in the school. So, I guess my question is, when did "African" become a race and not a continental descriptor? |
| 1 | Tree
ID: 54128317 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 18:29
|
i've always referred to Dave Matthews as an African-American, because, he is, in fact, one.
|
| 2 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 20:42
|
He's not African American.
|
| 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 20:43
|
And neither is Dave Matthews. It's not clever.
|
| 4 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 20:51
|
I would beg to differ MITH. Paris born moves to America, they are French-American. Simple fact. To be honest, French is not a Race, European, is not a race, and neither is African.
|
| 5 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 21:03
|
It's a demographic term. It doesn't mean the same as Americans who have have ancestors who lived in Africa. The earlier ancestors of this kid were European.
Granted, these types of terms are all screwed up but they still mean specific things even if they are misnomers. I'm called "white" even tho the color of my skin is not white. And I'm sure I've never met or seen anyone who's skin is black.
African American refers to Americans who are black, or if you prefer, who's geneology is traced to Sub-Saharan Africa.
And "Sub-Saharan Africa" is another misnomer, because it doesn't specifically refer to the portion of Africa that lies south of the Sahara Desert.
I recall all this being sorted out for us in maybe 7th grade social studies.
|
| 6 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 21:13
|
I dont recall, ever hearing anyone who wasnt "black", referred to as African-American. Not in school, not in an educational setting, not ever. I will admit, to having never reLLY Pid it much if any thought. However, this news story prompts thought I think, and in such...African-American would mean (in my minds eye) "from African heritage, and become American". Now, this boys ancestors most likely are indeed European. But how many generations were born there in S Africa? How many generations does it take, to "be" from 'there'?
Frankly, the kid is the only African-American in his school. He truly fits, the very definition of the words, if not the generiuc meaning they have taken on.
|
| 7 | weykool
ID: 1611471811 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 21:17
|
I enter Native American on any form that tries to segregate/divide us. I was born in America so I am native to this country. I am all for anything that gets rid of hyphenated-Americans.
|
| 8 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 21:42
|
It's a term with a meaning that evolved seperately from the specific definitions of the words it is composed of.
We know what American means. That's a term that usually refers to nationality. We know what African means. That's a term that usually refers to geography. "African American" and Native American are (basically) nationality/genealogical terms, not a nationality/geographic ones.
This sort of thing happens a lot in language. "African American" wasn't the best choice in my opinion. But I'm of the belief that people should be called by whatever name they want to be called and as far as I know that was the popular selection at the time.
|
| 9 | Tree
ID: 17039238 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 21:45
|
African American refers to Americans who are black, or if you prefer, who's geneology is traced to Sub-Saharan Africa.
fair enough. i think the key word in this case is geneology, or ancestry.
of course, there are plenty of people who identify themselves as African Americans who's ancestry is instead traced to places like the Caribbean or South America.
|
| 10 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:04
|
Geneology. Not ancestry.
|
| 11 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:23
|
If we go by geneology; I've seen/read more than one paper, suggesting we are ALL "African".
|
| 12 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:33
|
The old n word gave way to negro gave way to colored gave way to black gave way to African American.
You can split hairs all you want about the denotative meaning. But the connotative meaning of African American is black.
|
| 13 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:34
|
It isn't clear if he is American. Anyone know for sure?
|
| 14 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:39
|
The article doesnt say specifically, but his family moved here from Johannasburg, 6 years ago. The "implication", is that they are now American citizens.
|
| 15 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:42
|
we are ALL "African"
Yes, that's one of the reasons it's a flawed term.
Don't blame me, I didn't coin it. But it was coined, with a specific meaning that came into accepted use. And that meaning doesn't include Trevor Richards or Dave Matthews. Whether he is American or not.
Don't get suckered by WND's semantic racial pot-stirring.
|
| 16 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:45
|
OK, let's stipulate the term African-American solely for black Americans, whether they have ever set foot in Africa or not. So, what DO we call a native South African, who happens to be white, who the become a US citizen? If he or she is NOT African-American, what the hell ARE they?
|
| 17 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 22:54
|
American, Brazilian American, Peruvian American, etc.
|
| 18 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 23:07
|
Anything, geographically accurate or not, so long as it isnt "African American"? Sorry, but simple logic dictates that such a dictate, is patently absurd.
|
| 19 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 00:37
|
The term was coined by black Americans, to replace Negro. Let's not pretend that the intention of the term, or the source, doesn't matter.
Next thing you know, people will be talking about gay rights as extending to clowns...
|
| 20 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 00:52
|
Sarge I misread your question. I thought you were asking about a native South American, which didn't make much sense to me but I figured you had a point. A South African who becomes an American - or an American of South African ancestry is a South African American. This would also be true if the person in question was black. And in that case he/she would be an African American as well. Contrary to the notion you seem stuck on, the former is not a more specific way to say the same thing as the latter. They mean two different things.
|
| 21 | Wilmer McLean
ID: 2899151 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 07:19
|
1) "African American" is a political term.
African American (wiki)
...
African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans, and formerly as American Negroes) are citizens or residents of the United States who have at least partial ancestry from any of the native populations of Sub-Saharan Africa. Most African Americans are of West and Central African descent and are descendants of enslaved Africans within the boundaries of the present United States. However, some immigrants from African, Caribbean, Central American or South American nations, or their descendants, may be identified or self-identify with the term.
...
The term African American carries important political overtones. Earlier terms used to identify Americans of African ancestry were conferred upon the group by colonists and Americans of European ancestry. The terms were included in the wording of various laws and legal decisions which some thought were being used as tools of white supremacy and oppression. There developed among blacks in America a growing desire for a term of self-identification of their own choosing.
With the political consciousness that emerged from the political and social ferment of the late 1960s and early 1970s, blacks no longer approved of the term Negro. They believed it had suggestions of a moderate, accommodationist, even "Uncle Tom" connotation. In this period, a growing number of blacks in the United States, particularly African American youth, celebrated their blackness and their historical and cultural ties with the African continent. The Black Power movement defiantly embraced Black as a group identifier. It was a term social leaders themselves had repudiated only two decades earlier, but they proclaimed, "Black is beautiful".
In this same period, a smaller number of people favored Afro-American, a common shortening (as is 'Anglo-American'). However, after the decline in popularity of the 'Afro' hairstyle in the late 1970s, the term fell out of use.[citation needed]
In the 1980s the term African American was advanced on the model of, for example, German-American or Irish-American to give descendents of American slaves and other American blacks who lived through the slavery-era a heritage and a cultural base. The term was popularized in black communities around the country via word of mouth and ultimately received mainstream use after Jesse Jackson publicly used the term in front of a national audience. Subsequently, major media outlets adopted its use.
Some such as Maulana Karenga and Owen Alik Shahadah argue African-American is more appropriate because it accurately articulates geography and historical origin. Thus linking a people to a continent as oppose to an abstract color. Others believe the term black is inaccurate because African Americans have a variety of skin tones.[citation needed] Surveys show that the majority of Black Americans have no preference for "African American" or "Black," although they have a slight preference for "Black" in personal settings and "African American" in more formal settings. Many African-Americans expressed a preference for the term, as it was formed in the same way as names for others of the many ethnic groups in the nation. Some argued further that, because of the historical circumstances surrounding the capture, enslavement and systematic attempts to de-Africanize blacks in the United States under chattel slavery, most African Americans are unable to trace their ancestry to a specific African nation; hence, the entire continent serves as a geographic marker.
For many, African American is more than a name expressive of cultural and historical roots. The term expresses pride in Africa and a sense of kinship and solidarity with others of the African diaspora—an embrace of pan-Africanism as earlier enunciated by prominent African thinkers such as Marcus Garvey, W. E. B. Du Bois and George Padmore.
...
2) Barack basically said that politics should not trump science.
Change.gov (Saturday, December 20, 2008 06:00am EST)
...
"The truth is that promoting science isn’t just about providing resources—it’s about protecting free and open inquiry,” President-elect Obama said. “It’s about ensuring that facts and evidence are never twisted or obscured by politics or ideology. It’s about listening to what our scientists have to say, even when it’s inconvenient—especially when it’s inconvenient. Because the highest purpose of science is the search for knowledge, truth and a greater understanding of the world around us.
...
3) All Americans are African American.
Human Evolution - Out of Africa (wiki)
...
According to the Out-of-Africa model, developed by Chris Stringer and Peter Andrews, modern H. sapiens evolved in Africa 200,000 years ago. Homo sapiens began migrating from Africa between 70,000 – 50,000 years ago and eventually replaced existing hominid species in Europe and Asia. Out of Africa has gained support from research using female mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) and the male Y chromosome. After analysing genealogy trees constructed using 133 types of mtDNA, researchers concluded that all were descended from a female African progenitor, dubbed Mitochondrial Eve. Out of Africa is also supported by the fact that mitochondrial genetic diversity is highest among African populations.
...
African American is a scientific term that should not be trumped by politics.
|
| 22 | bibA
ID: 4057177 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 09:43
|
So Wilmer, what term do you use when referring to people who are commonly called "African American" by most of our society?
|
| 23 | Mith
ID: 23217270 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 10:11
|
Huh? What's scientific about a term that establishes nationality? When you refer to something as American Im pretty sure you are you aren't talking about a thing that necesarily covers the entirety of two continents. Why would you demand that 'African' is a scientific term, accept that the primary definition of 'American' is specifically not scientific and then criticize the use 'African American' as a politicization of something that should be specifically "scientific". Was 'African American' a term that was even in use prior to the civil rights movement? If so, what exactly do you think it meant, Wilmer?
Honestly I am blown away by the ignorance rampant in this short thread. Is it any wonder why so many black Americans still don't feel like full members of white-dominated society?
The ancestors of American black people didn't choose be shipped here in bondage. They didn't choose to be established as less than fully human by the new government. Post emancipation, they didn't choose to be established as a lesser class, forcibly relegated to lesser-quality public institutions, denied access to supposedly integrated ones and forcibly banned from any private establishments which chose to exclude them.
At no point in America was it their choice to be distinct from a the more privileged ethnic class in society.
Who the hell are you to also deny them the right to select whatever name they want for the distinction that has been forced upon them for more than half a millennia? Why in the world should you demand a "scientific" standard for the name of their distinction that you never bothered imposing on yourself?
This is one of the most embarrassing threads in the history of this forum.
|
| 24 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 11:37
|
Wilmer seems to be complaining that the term which references nationality has "important political overtones." Of course it does.
|
| 25 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 13:02
|
This is one of the most embarrassing threads in the history of this forum.
If you feel that way about it, why post in it?
|
| 26 | biliruben
ID: 59551120 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 13:41
|
Because he clearly has solid background on these issues, and is serving to educate. It's exactly what is best about this forum.
Having essentially a "If you don't like this country, go back to Africa" stance just drops the thread another notch.
|
| 27 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 14:14
|
not at all bili, what I meant or intended by the query.
I honestly think, the whole question of the thread is a valid point for discussion. Yes, 150+ years ago, the black man was brought here against his/her will. No question or denying that. Yes, up until roughly 50 years ago, the black man was subject to rampant discriminatioon and in too many cases, still is. I dont deny that either. However, what would be the uproar from the black community, if a public school ahd an award for white kids only? Or if someone started a WET (White Entertainment Television), or seriously suggested a "White History" month?
I would never deny that racism exists and was at times FAR worse than it is today. But does that truly justify usurping the very meaning of words? When I was a Sgt at Ft Ord California backj in the early 80s,I led a platoon of 53 people plus myself. I had 2 white kids, 1 Latino and 50 blacks. Get a group of the blacks together, and the "N" word was the single most commonly uttered word you would hear. I ahd to give a class, stating that if those fella were gonna use the word referring to each other, then they wouldhave no leg to stand on in complaining aboujt someone else using the word in reference to them. IF, the word is deragotory, then it doesnt matter who says it. If its OK for blacks to say it to each other, then it isnt the word that is the probloem, but the perception of a white man using it. THAT, is the very definition of racism.
Unless and until we find ways to virtually eliminate skin color from consideration in acceptability of a term, phrase, word or sound; then we are not progressing toward eliminating the root of the problem.
My great grandfather, came here from Schleswig-Holstein along the Kiev Canal. My ancestors, had less than nothing to do with slaves, slavery, enslavement, etc. Since that generation, we have CHOSEN to remain here. I do not call myself German-American in honor of my Great Grandfather, nor do I cll myself Irish-American in honor of my maternal Great Grandfather. I am the 3rd generatiuon born here in the US and that makes me American, period. Same for todays Black American. They are American, period. This kid in this article however, he WAS born in Africa. He *IS*, African-American.
|
| 28 | bibA
ID: 4057177 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 15:23
|
So honestly sarge - you don't see a difference with some blacks using the term in a context of camaraderie, and your white neighbor saying that a "N" is moving next door?
The hurt one may or may not feel when this term is used arises from its context. If you can't see that, I guess I can understand why you don't like the term "African American" as it's used to describe blacks. But if no one is using that term in any way that is actually disparaging to anyone, why let it bother you?
ps - It's the Kiel canal that runs thru Schleswig-Holstein. My in-laws live in a village 30 miles west of Kiel. It is a beautiful area, as is most all of Germany.
|
| 29 | Mith
ID: 37838313 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 15:43
|
With all due respect, your ignorance betrays you, Sarge.
It's clear enough that no further exploration of the topic will change the opinion at the end of my last post. And I certainly lack the energy and patiance to keep trying.
I appreciate bili's encouragement but I'll just take Sarge's advice in #25, which might be the smartest thing written in this thread anyway.
|
| 30 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 17:04
|
I think you misunderstand the meaning the term "uusurping" sarge, if you believe that is what African-Americans have done with their self-created term.
|
| 31 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 17:53
|
Yes bibA, I do see a difference between a term used in comraderie, and a term used for deragotory purposes. However, if our goal truly is a "color blind" society, then we need to discourage the use of a term which when used by one race is OK and when used by another is an insult. When the only difference is the skin color of the speaker, then racism is alive and well.
And thank-you for the reminder. Yes, it is indeed the Kiel. My bad, running off a nearly 30 yr old memory when I was last in Germany and seriously perused a map of the region.
|
| 33 | bibA
ID: 4057177 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 19:46
|
When the only difference is the skin color of the speaker, then racism is alive and well.
The skin color is not the only difference when the term is being used. The context of how the term is being meant when uttered is paramount.
If a white guy calls a black a "N...", chances are the black will see the racism there. As would most other people.
If a black says to another black "What is up N...", I don't see that as racist, and neither would the black who is being spoken to, nor most other people. If you see that as somehow racist, I see you following the likely thinking of such as Limbaugh, Beck, or Hannity.
|
| 34 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 19:50
|
based on the FB side of this same discussion, I seem to have a more "worldly" view perhaps?
Africans honestly don't even really LIKE black people in America for that reason! And to make matters worse, the majority of black people in America are NOT full blooded Africans, so why call ourselves African American? To be honest with you, when we fill out anything that asks for our race, we should just mark "other."
I kinda cringe sometimes when a black american says they are African American, I have buddy from Canada that's black, he thinks it's funny as hell, he say's all his black friends from Canada make fun of black americans for it. He's like, "shit man, I'm from Canada I don't call myself an, African Canadian, american black people are full of shit" I'm pretty sure it steams from them being suppressed but it is funny hearing him make fun, when I was in college he would get in arguments with his black american buddies all the time.
We as black people tend to get offended too easily! CALM THE F*CK DOWN!!!! I think that kid should have been eligible for the award, because he actually IS from Africa!
A fairly representative sample of the comments so far. (I find it interesting, how a different "demographic" will yield totally different comments.)
|
| 35 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 20:23
|
The term african american was invented [or hijacked to whatever miniscule extent it was ever uttered pre-sixties] by PC race hustlers to identify themselves as the arbiter of all things politically correct, to self-identify those who slavishly followed the PC party line each new twist imposed and to isolate those who refused.
I have never uttered the term african american unless I was directly quoting someone else.
|
| 36 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 20:44
|
I suppose to be consistent I should logically call 'latino's' brown, but my personal experience is that they often take great pride in distinguishing their country of origin and it's distinctly superior flavor of spanish. So in practice [and depending on the context] I call them by whatever country they seem to be proudest of at the moment, which is often as not American.
|
| 37 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 20:58
|
Wanna wear a Dashiki? Fine, have it your way. You are an african. Alan West? How do you not call him an American first, last and always?
I agree tho. This is one of the most embarrassing threads ever. Anything bordering on speech codes is tainted.
|
| 38 | Khahan
ID: 54138190 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 22:17
|
The context of how the term is being meant when uttered is paramount.
This is ONLY true when you consider the color of the speaker outside of very tight social circles.
If a random black person hears 2 black people using the N word, its no big deal. If a random black person hears a white person using the N word, regardless of context or relationship (because that random guy doesn't know) then its a big deal.
The school I went to had a pretty diverse mix of black, white, jew, and various asian nationalities. Heck, we even had the Russian mafia represented. Conversely, a school 20 mins away who had a graduating class bigger than my school had 3 black kids in it.
I had one classmate who had some friends refer to him as Blackie or Darkie because he was a VERY dark skinned person. Even some of us white boys were fine with it. But we NEVER used the n word. Ever.
Ever.
One local rival school who had no black kids in it used the N word as a taunt during a football game against our QB. Big mistake. He was undefeated in 4 years as a wreslter and played 3 years in the Pennsylvania/Ohio allstar game as QB. The ensuing brawl my senior year over use the n word saw both schools kicked out of PIAA post season play for 2 years.
It is a very racially charged and motivated term. I'd say its unique in the english language in this respect. No other word is the source of so much derision, hatred and emotion.
|
| 39 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519 Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 22:56
|
I can remember when I was a kid visiting my Chicago grandparents in their great big ole house surrounded by a changed neighborhood. One of the few times I have interacted with an all black social setting. I played with them all morning and had some eye-opening moments.
Ego burnishing: I challenged them all to a footrace and as I was pulling away one of them deliberately reached out and caused me a spill and ankle sprain I will never forget. Water under the bridge.
Anyway, it was really sad to hear how they interacted. Really dark ones on the outs. Guys with distinctive tribal head shapes called 'tumor-head'.
Later in life I learned sadly that there is considerable racism within the black community highly favoring 'high yellow'. Very apparent in the entertainment industry when you look for it.
They would be immeasurably better off dumping their race hustling 'leaders', forgetting the days of rage and the ever wallowing dialog and just truly becoming color-blind and following the literal meaning of MLK's speeches to the letter.
|
| 40 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 11:12
|
We Americans, are far more "puritan" than the rest of the world in our views on sex, alcohol, drugs...and apparently race. Not at all sure, that is a good thing. Further, when a racial discussion is fairly uniformly blastyed as "the most worthless topic ever", that to me defines the very WHY we still have a race issue in this country. We cant even talk about it.
|
| 41 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319 Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 11:47
|
Blacks insist, "I am not African American"
Seems my view is hardly an ignorant or isolated one.
|
If you believe a recent post violates the policy on Civility and Respect, you may report the abuse via email to moderators@rotoguru1.com | |
|
|
Post a reply to this message: A white,
|
|