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0 Subject: Anti-religion Obama

Posted by: Boldwin
- [49030519] Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 23:15

But the big political news of the week isn't Mr. Romney's gaffe, or even his victory in Florida. The big story took place in Washington. That's where a bomb went off that not many in the political class heard, or understood.

But President Obama just may have lost the election.

The president signed off on a Health and Human Services ruling that says that under ObamaCare, Catholic institutions—including charities, hospitals and schools—will be required by law, for the first time ever, to provide and pay for insurance coverage that includes contraceptives, abortion-inducing drugs and sterilization procedures. If they do not, they will face ruinous fines in the millions of dollars. Or they can always go out of business.

In other words, the Catholic Church was told this week that its institutions can't be Catholic anymore. - Peggy Noonan
1sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sat, Feb 04, 2012, 23:47
Maybe in Italy, this could cost him an election. But virtuially every American Catholic I know, practices birth control in one form or another, NOT inclusive of "the rhythm" method.
2Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 01:01
He's making the Catholic church pay for abortion.
3Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 01:19
Romney
Romney charged, that devotion to religious freedom “goes out the window” for “the agenda of the left-wing of the Democratic Party.” He linked the mandate to abortion on demand and opposition to abstinence education.

“They would force Catholics and others who have beliefs rooted in their faith to sacrifice the teachings of their faith to the mandate of federal bureaucrats,” Romney said.

He also criticized the Obama administration’s 12-month extension for religious groups to comply with the mandate, calling it “a clumsy attempt to push this matter past this year’s presidential election.”

“The America I believe in is governed by the U.S. Constitution and I will not hesitate to use the powers of the presidency to protect religious liberty,” Romney stated.
Newt
Newt Gingrich, a convert to Catholicism, charged that the mandate is part of a “war against Christianity.” During his campaign in Florida, ahead of the state primary, he pledged to overturn all “anti-religious” federal policies on his first day in office.
Santorum
“Barack Obama and Kathleen Sebelius said ‘Too bad. If it goes against what you believe, then you believe the wrong things,’” Santorum said, according to the Los Angeles Times.

“This is just the tip of the iceberg of what we can expect.”
Paul
Ron Paul said the mandate “violates the conscience of millions of pro-life Americans.” He said he views the “regulatory overstep” as “payback to Planned Parenthood and big pharmaceutical companies for their support of Obamacare.”
- Catholic News Agency
5Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 02:43
And the pilgrims fled.
6Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 02:50
You could also see this as an attack on private insurance in favor of government single-payer. Surely when the heat gets turned up he will say religions can just drop their insurance altogether.

He's put off compliance demands until after the election. He's gonna be a wrecking ball from hell when and if he doesn't have to worry about re-election.
7Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 03:33
I'm interested in having Bart Stupak explain again how Obamacare doesn't force Americans to fund abortion.
8Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 03:45
Both radicalism and maliciousness are at work in Obama’s decision — an edict delivered with a sneer. It is the most transparently anti-Catholic maneuver by the federal government since the Blaine Amendment was proposed in 1875...
---
The implications of Obama’s power grab go further than contraception and will provoke opposition beyond Catholicism. Christian colleges and universities of various denominations will resist providing insurance coverage for abortifacients. And the astounding ambition of this federal precedent will soon be apparent to every religious institution. Obama is claiming the executive authority to determine which missions of believers are religious and which are not — and then to aggressively regulate institutions the government declares to be secular. It is a view of religious liberty so narrow and privatized that it barely covers the space between a believer’s ears.

Obama’s decision also reflects a certain view of liberalism. Classical liberalism was concerned with the freedom to hold and practice beliefs at odds with a public consensus. Modern liberalism uses the power of the state to impose liberal values on institutions it regards as backward. It is the difference between pluralism and anti-­clericalism.

The administration’s ultimate motivation is uncertain. Has it adopted a radical secularism out of conviction, or is it cynically appealing to radical secularists? In either case, the war on religion is now formally declared. - Michael Gerson, Washington Post
9Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 04:02
The mantra from progressives, both secular and religious, is that “conservatives” conjured up imaginary abortion-enhancing provisions in ObamaCare. Thus, those who stood up for the “truth”–that it didn’t–ought to be congratulated and supported, not left hanging out to dry.

But the truth is, progressive/liberals weren’t telling the truth. As NRLC explained from the very beginning, ObamaCare contained multiple provisions that provide authorizations for subsidies for abortion, both implicit and explicit, and also multiple provisions that opened doors to abortion-expanding administrative actions (just for starters). Those within the Catholic Church that Dionne derided as having “sought to derail the health-care law” agreed independently with NRLC’s analysis and sought unsuccessfully to have the provisions removed.

(That free pass includes erstwhile pro-life Democrats such as former Michigan Representative Bart Stupak, who carried the water for a bogus executive order Obama promised at the eleventh hour, making passage possible. As NRLC said at the time, “The executive order promised by President Obama was issued for political effect. It changes nothing. It does not correct any of the serious pro-abortion provisions in the bill. The president cannot amend a bill by issuing an order, and the federal courts will enforce what the law says.”)

Third, the attack on conscience is not a newly geared-up offensive, unleashed late in the game by Obama. To cite just one example, a year ago, the Obama Administration rescinded a regulation that has been issued by the Bush Administration which would have protected healthcare providers from being penalized for refusing to participate in providing abortions.

Not that Obama hasn’t pretended (and promised) otherwise. In his 2009 commencement address at the University of Notre Dame, Obama said, “Let’s honor the conscience of those” who disagree with abortion “and draft a sensible conscience clause, and make sure that all of our health-care policies are grounded not only in sound science but also in clear ethics, as well as respect for the equality of women.”

That, of course, proved to be nothing more than reassuring rhetoric that means nothing as Obama seeks to please his base.

Pro-life Congressman Chris Smith put it perfectly, speaking at the March for Life January 23.

The weakening and systematic undermining of conscience protections are at the top of Mr. Obama’s wish list as well as the ‘integration’ of abortion into national and international programs.” National Right To Life
In 2008 54% of catholics voted for Obama.
10Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 10:05
GIGO.
11sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 11:21
Another Boldwin self congratulatory thread.
12Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 15:44
In 2008 54% of catholics voted for Obama.

Do you know why this was? And why it likely to be even higher this year? Didn't think so.
13Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 16:17
Catholics have all converted to liberation theology this time thru the cafeteria?
14Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 16:38
This has angered a lot of catholics and non-catholics. I took my kids to mass this morning and there was a letter read from that Bishop that was being read to every church at every mass about the legislation. I'm not catholic, but I disagree with the law. This is forcing your morals on others. I see no distinction between this and the catholic church trying to force their morals on the abortion issue. Both sides are wrong to push their morals on others.

Employers should have freedom to decide what benefits they offer. I can see the catholic church dropping health care for employees rather than complying with this. Actually from the letter that was read, they have no intention of complying and this will be headed to the courts. I'm curious how the Supreme Court eventually rules.
15Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 18:28
There are two catholics running for the GOP nomination, Boldwin. Both of them are clear "cafeteria Catholics."

Don't for a moment think that it is only "liberals" who pick and choose what parts of their religion they follow. Heck, look at you, being on these boards.
16Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 19:16
So were you ever gonna surprise me with why they like Obama even more now? This has gotta be amazing.
17Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sun, Feb 05, 2012, 19:30
Because, unlike you, Catholics believe in social justice. Catholic bishops supported the affordable care act, extending unemployment benefits, CHIP, and food stamps, and Catholics want government interaction and a strong safety net for the poor.

Catholics also don't believe we should go to wars under false pretenses and make the middle class and the poor pay for them in terms of money and blood.

Catholics want more open borders.

And, very importantly, Catholics strongly disagree with the Republican party on the death penalty.

Many of my fellow Catholics also take note that abortions have dropped under Democratic Administrations and often rose under Republican ones. Say what you want about whether Catholics can support Obama on the question of abortion: Most realize the being "pro-life" is far more than being against abortions.

18Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 01:25
Be honest now. You are predicting a higher percentage of Catholics will vote for Obama this time?
19Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 01:40
Yes.
20Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 02:40
It will be interesting to compare your acumen with Peggy Noonan's after the election.
21Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 03:07
Before you looked it up, what did you believe the Catholic vote for Obama to be in 2008? My guess is that you would have thought it to be south of 40%.

If faced with Obama vs Romney you betcha Obama will do very well, and will do better than last time.
22Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 03:34
I should add that American Catholics have largely been ignoring the Church leadership on contraception for decades now. I don't expect that to change now that the particular argument is a rather small one.
23Boldwin
      ID: 49030519
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 08:02
They were too slow to react to anti-religion in Germany too.
24Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 09:12
You are predicting a higher percentage of Catholics will vote for Obama this time?

if immigration becomes a significant issue during the 2012 election, Obama's going to see that number rise significantly.

They were too slow to react to anti-religion in Germany too.

false Nazi comparisons again. such comparisons are not only ignorant of history, but ignorant of current events as well.
25Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 10:12
#23: Took you long enough to drop in the Nazi reference.
26Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 15:13
A reader at Andrew Sullivan's blog helps crystalize the notion that buying insurance which covers contraception isn't necessarily a sin.
27sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 15:15
additionally, a LARGE number of employees at various Catholic hospitals, are not themselves Catholic.
28Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 15:25
Re: 26

That still doesn't change the fact that the government is forcing an organization to pay for a service they morally disagree with.

Where do you draw the line? Should all companies be required to pay for lapband surgery? Most employers currently don't. Should transgender surgeries be required coverage? I don't care for slippery slope arguments, but in this case it really does feel that way to me.

This is probably the Libertarian in me, but businesses should have the right to do business as they see fit. If they don't want to offer a benefit, that is their choice, just as it is potential employees right to decide to work somewhere else that offers other, more, or better benefits.
29sarge33rd
      ID: 211332319
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 15:30
To play "devils advocate", owuld tend toward agreeing wioth you Frick, as it pertains to a BUSINESS. A Church however..., as much of a business as religion has become in this country, the point of the one is not the same as the professed point of the other.

Want non-profit status? Then make some "public good" exceptions or risk facing the loss of said status.
30Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 15:41
That still doesn't change the fact that the government is forcing an organization to pay for a service they morally disagree with.

Sure. But the Church is presenting this as a theological issue, which it is not. They are also presenting this as one which forces them to compromise their stand on contraception, which it does not.

What about a Catholic business owner who buys insurance for his employees which cover contraception? Does the business owner commit a sin in doing so? The Catholic Church (which remains silent on the question of that business owner's moral culpability) says that the law forces them to sin by including a portion of their health care premiums to cover contraception. As a theological point I think (respectfully) they are wrong on that point.

They could (as others do) complain that the law requires them to do things. But they are wrong to say it requires them to sin.

Frick: No business is required to provide health insurance. But if they do, the law requires them to do it in certain ways. Your libertarian instincts on this actual already match what is actually going on.
31Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 16:30
The law requires them to do something. Ok, that is the point of many laws. The issue I see is it requires them to do something they morally disagree with. Sin is a concept of the church, despite the fact they wrap it up as a sin, it is still a practice they morally disagree with. I could be wrong on that, but that is my understanding as a non-Catholic who interacts with the church more than I really care to. I disagree with the church on that stance, but they are free to have that stance in my opinion.


In the long run, do you think the Dioceses of the US are going to offer birth control or cancel healthcare for their employees? Where a potential law suit against the church could potentially succeed would be if they had healthcare plans priests, but not non-clergy members. That would be a potential violation of the law with regards to equality.

32DWetzel
      ID: 53326279
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 16:33
"he issue I see is it requires them to do something they morally disagree with."

No, as noted, they always have that option of simply not providing health care.

(Whether that's a superior alternative to letting them provide the health care they want is a different question, which I choose not to address at this time -- my leaning is that you're probably right and it's probably not better. But, they're not being REQUIRED to do anything.)
33Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 16:35
I guess I'm not really being clear (I mean this sincerely, not as a snark). The law doesn't require them to sin, IMO. It does require them to do something they don't like, which touches upon sin if done in some other capacity.

There are something like 28 states which require this same exact thing, and most diocese have gotten around this by forming their own insurance companies and calling themselves "self-insured" (which makes them immune from many state laws regarding insurance companies).

I think they will bitch and complain like Obama is taking away their vestments. Then do the right thing and add in the requirement while re-iterating their teaching on contraception to their own members.

34Frick
      ID: 14082314
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 16:46
I disagree that the requirement makes them fund an act in a manner that they deem immoral.

If the Diocese's can circumvent the law by calling themselves self-insured that doesn't make the issue better to me. It is still the government enforcing their moral standards. I feel the same way about abortion. I don't personally like it, but I don't think it should be illegal (with some exceptions for late term abortions). By making it illegal the government is forcing morality on it's citizens.

I don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Diocese plans allowed for birth control for the control or prevention other medical issues if it was prescribed by a doctor.

35Razor
      ID: 551031157
      Mon, Feb 06, 2012, 16:47
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