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0 Subject: Environmentalism and You!

Posted by: Wilmer Mclean
- [276571019] Wed, Jul 11, 2007, 05:33

This week was a volcanic eruption of agitation for me. With the Gore Concerts and the trailing environmental segments on TV news and shows I have had enough!

I want fair talk and even debate. I want the national newsmen and women to respect their journalism creed and tell me the pluses and minuses, the good and the bad.

ABC news had segmentS on the bottle water crisis - bottles ending up in landfills. 'World News' Hits the (Water) Bottle Again - For the second night, ABC targets the bottled water industry's impact on the environment.

And yet, new technology can recycle any hydrocarbon bottles into oil, gas, water and non-hyrdocarbons.

Giant microwave turns plastic back to oil - 26 June 2007

Balance? Reserach? Debate?

According to this pre-plastics-to-oil-and-gas invention site Consider Its Lifecycle: Bottled Water:
The Container Recycling Institute reports that sales of virgin resin PET (polyethylene terephthalate), the plastic most commonly used in water bottles, shot up to 738 million kilograms in 1999, more than double the amount in 1990. Producing 1 kilogram of PET plastic requires 17.5 kilograms of water and results in air emissions of 40 grams of hydrocarbons, 25 grams of sulfur oxides, 18 grams of carbon monoxide, 20 grams of nitrogen oxides, and 2.3 kilograms of carbon dioxide. In terms of water use alone, much more is consumed in making the bottles than will ever go into them.[6]
Well, I am not an expert and is fair-minded, but what is the new equation with the new microwave bottle-to-gas-and-oil transformation?

Also, asking about fair debate, was there any mention that Robert F. Kennedy, Jr. owns his own bottled water company?

Secondly, I happenchanced to witness one of the worst didatic TV shows this year. I saw Ellen DeGeneres with a Greener rushing through a litany of "Earth Saving" products.

Being attuned to fluorescent light bulbs I waited for the "sell."

As expected on my part, the host and knowledgaeble guest under time contstraints failed (neglected) to mention the mercury problem in CFL's - not to mention the ways and certain places to properly dispose of them.

Do you know where you can properly dispose them near you?

I checked the Ellen site and applaud them for their balance after the fact (after editing and taping):

TRADE IN YOUR LIGHT BULBS

Everyone is talking about changing lightbulbs - and it really does make a difference! If every home replaced one bulb with a CFL, it would be equivalent to taking one million cars off the road. (The sell.)

Incandescent light bulbs, which most of us use, burn 80-90% heat, so they are extremely inefficient. Most of the energy in the U.S. comes from coal-fired plants. So when we use inefficient products, we're burning a lot more coal and putting a ton of C02 and toxins like mercury into the environment.

Compact fluorescent lights (CFL's) are 70 - 75% more efficient. A 22 watt CFL has about the same light output as a 100 watt incandescent.

CFLs can cost 3-5 times more upfront, but they last up to 10 times longer, and use 75% less energy, so you'll see a considerable savings on your energy bill - about $36 savings over the life of each bulb.

CFLs actually have trace amounts of mercury in them so you have to dispose of them carefully, but because incandesents are so inefficient., you actually put more mercury into the air by using those because most of our power comes from coal.

We're seeing not only CFLs but LED light technology. As long as you look for the ENERGY STAR labeling you'll know you're in good shape.

...
I prefer LED's.

I have a second home on a lake with a point well under the water line. I am not willing to take the chance to see how many lawyers it takes to break a compact fluorescent light bulb to seep mercury into my drinking water. ;)




So, I ask two important questions for the future responders:

1. Do you want balanced reporting of environmental concerns from network news and major newpapers and magazines?

2. What does environmentalism mean to you, and what are you doing about it?

3. Where is the nearest place from you to properly dispose of CFL's? (How did you find this information?)
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52Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Sun, Apr 22, 2012, 21:49
Oh please, it's not like he was denying or minimizing Nelson.

look, you lied. or, at the very least, once again, did shoddy research.

considering your history, the people you look up to, i'm inclined to go with the former.
57Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 15:50
Your problem isn't that you don't know what sort of people Bill Ayers and Ira Einhorn are and what they represent. It's that you approve.
58Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:05
Maybe. But you can't get to that conclusion using the road you've paved with lies.

You need to have enough confidence in your side of the story to either present it without distorting history, or adjust your side to reflect the facts (rather than the other way around).

The problem with partisans isn't that they aren't strong enough in how they express their opinions, it is that they believe more strongly worded opinions can overcome factual or rhetorical deficiencies.

59Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:12
It is what it is. The guy was on the committee that created Earth Day. He was the first MC and the first presenter on stage. He murdered his wife.

Whatever that means, it sure is the truth. Of course you want to interpret that until it is minimized down to nothing but that doesn't give you, PD, license to call me a liar or Tree, to descend into another slanderfest of my religion.
60Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 16:41
A group of very dedicated young people worked very hard to organize Earth Day, but Einhorn was not one of them.

That's what all the former members of the committe collectively say.

Einhorn, the murderer, claims he was not only on the committee but the founder of the thing.

Personally, I couldn't care less but I would tend to believe the consensus of the people who on the committee and also aren't murderers over the individual whom they say wasn't one of them and who is a murderer.

I'm pretty sure that would be Boldwin's standard, too, except in cases where putting his faith in the murderer is the option that better supports the integrity of his worldview that people mwho aren't like him are usually terrible.
61Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 17:04
From the book A Quest For Life, Autobiography of Ian L. McHarg
On the very day that Gaylord Perry intimated his plan for Earth Day the faculty and students of our department sent a telegram committing our participation. A committee was formed headed by a young hydrologist and regional planner from Vanderbilt, Austan Librach. Soon an executive director was hired, a lawyer and city planner Ed Furia. The king of Philidelphia hippies, Ira Einhorn joined the group and played a major role.
Anyone denying that is the one who is a liar.

62Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 17:30
Again, I really don't care but nobody is denying that. Just put in the effort to make it through the next two sentences of their letter:
In fact, Einhorn was asked to leave several meetings of the organizing committee which he attempted to disrupt. He was not welcome there, nor did he contribute in any material way to the committee’s activitie.
63Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:00
Well I guess you will continue to believe a group of liberals in CYA mode denying everything...

...over someone who was there at the founding who listed Einhorn third in his list of early and main movers and shakers.

What pray tell was McHarg's reason to lie about it? I got your liberal's motives right here.

Pretty big difference between a major role and 'we had nothing to do with that disgusting hippy'.

I mean, what liberal in his right mind would have had anything to do with Einhorn in 1970? I mean besides Harvard where he taught and held a fellowship at Harvard’s Kennedy School of Government...and his good buddies Arlen Specter and all his friends at Esalen Institute or Barbara Bronfman [one of the richest families in Canada and well known occultist] who made his bail. Then there was his good buddy Phillip K. Dick.

Fighting his extradition to the USA were members of French government and of the European Parliament; the chairman of the Foreign Affairs Committee in the National Assembly of France, Socialists, Communists, and Green Party delegates; the League of Human Rights, the human rights group S.O.S. Racisme.

Yeah, he was prolly just some self-serving nobody trying to horn in on Nelson Gaylord's fun. I am sure no one wanted anything to do with him at the time.
64Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:15
It is what it is. The guy was on the committee that created Earth Day. He was the first MC and the first presenter on stage. He murdered his wife.

you have a hard time with facts.

Einhorn didn't murder his wife. or his ex-wife. or his girlfriend. it was his ex-girlfriend. now, i don't think this was intentional or malicious on your part, but rather is part of a pattern of you not doing due diligence because your hubris is so great you believe yourself infallible.

Whatever that means, it sure is the truth. Of course you want to interpret that until it is minimized down to nothing but that doesn't give you, PD, license to call me a liar or Tree, to descend into another slanderfest of my religion

it's not the first time you've lied, it won't be the last.

On the very day that Gaylord Perry intimated his plan for Earth Day the faculty and students of our department sent a telegram committing our participation. A committee was formed headed by a young hydrologist and regional planner from Vanderbilt, Austan Librach. Soon an executive director was hired, a lawyer and city planner Ed Furia. The king of Philidelphia hippies, Ira Einhorn joined the group and played a major role.

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day. if anything, the amount of oil he contributed to the atmosphere is probably directly opposite of Earth Day.

seriously though, you're grasping at straws here. you claimed Ira Einhorn was a co-founder of Earth Day. he very much was not a co-founder of Earth Day.

you hate being called out on your dishonesty, and you especially hate when it's someone you've spend years insulting. you're wrong here. period.
65Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:26
Friends with Marshall Mcluhan and Buckminster Fuller, Francis Huxley, Peter Gabriel, Arthur Koestler, Andrija Puharich, Abbie Hoffman, Jerry Rubin...

I mean what 1970's liberal radical would have wanted to have anything to do with a guy with friends like that???

Obviously the Earth Day committee would have done everything they could to shunt him off to the periphery.
66Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:34
Lol! It just get's richer and richer!

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day.

Oh, you'll listen to the Earth Day committee when they deny Einhorn but not when they pack the Wiki entry for Earth Day.

OMG even Einhorn didn't claim to be the principle founder of Earth Day but everyone recognizes Nelson.

Why do you even bother to post here, Tree?
67Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 22:36
While he lectures me on due diligence, no less. Who needs comedians when reality provides so richly?
68Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:27
While he lectures me on due diligence, no less. Who needs comedians when reality provides so richly?

indeed. you have NO idea how right you are.

pretty sure Gaylord Perry had nothing to do with Earth Day.

Oh, you'll listen to the Earth Day committee when they deny Einhorn but not when they pack the Wiki entry for Earth Day.


Gaylord Perry still has nothing to do with Earth Day, no matter how many times you claim he does.

And Einhorn still was not a co-founder of Earth Day. period. you're wrong on both counts.
69sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Mon, Apr 23, 2012, 23:53
pssst B? Gaylord NELSON, not Perry...founded Earth Day. Nelson, was a Sen, Perry, was a BB pitcher.
70Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:05
ROFL!

Perry was a son of a bitch, though. Maybe that's their connection?
71Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:09
:oD
72Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:12
Oh sheesh. An error in transcribing from a book that wouldn't allow C-n-P. I never claimed it was Perry anywhere else when I was describing events.
73Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:14
And no one here has even attempted to explain why McHarg who was there described Einhorn's role as major.
74sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:15
Cause he thought Perry founded ED? I dunno.
75Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:21
I seems misplaced to expect those you are trying to convince to both fact check and spell check your sources. Particularly when you are coming from an intentionally provocative place.
76Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:28
I've provided more than enuff evidence to convince any honest person that Einhorn was involved in more than a peripheral way and could indeed be said to be a co-founder. And I think a lot less of you for calling me a liar in the face of that evidence.
77Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 00:52
You are being dishonest and if you allowed any kind of Christianity to enter your heart when you are on these boards you would have never posted any of it. You only posted it as a smear tactic. And now that your evidence isn't conclusive you've decided to fight like a badger instead of engaging God's gift of humility when faced with such a response.

Intentional dishonesty is lying. Start acting like a Christian man instead of a petulant child when your evidence starts falling apart on you. Such things are opportunities for reflection and humbleness--they are examples of our imperfection. When you double down on smearing you give God a bad name.
78Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 02:46
I've provided more than enuff evidence to convince any honest person that Einhorn was involved in more than a peripheral way and could indeed be said to be a co-founder.

no, you haven't. you are lying through your teeth.

nothing you posted supports your claim that Einhorn was a co-founder of Earth Day. You posted Einhorn's own dubious claims, and you posted an excerpt from a book that claims Einhorn played a "major role", conveniently ignoring the rest of the details which include the fact that Einhorn was asked to leave the group and contributed very little.

and you've conveniently overlooked the fact that the book excerpt mentions Einhorn's involvement with the local Earth Day Philadelphia event, and not the larger all-encompassing Earth Day event founded by Gaylord Nelson.

Einhorn was absolutely NOT a co-founder of Earth Day, nor was he anything close to that level of esteem. you can kick and scream and cry until you're blue in the face, but that doesn't change the facts Baldwin.
79Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:05
I'm under the impression that the greater Earth Day started with the Philadelphia event.

Anyway, I think most people here see how this goes. Boldwin claimed Einhorn was the "founder". Then the "co-founder". Then "on the committee".

The author of that book linked in 61 did not chronicle the events of the organization of the first Earth Day. He described it as a positive experience and left it at that, glossing over any of the surely considerable challenges and difficulties the group must have dealt with in putting together that event.

That this writer says Einhorn played a major role and that the founders of the thing say they couldn't stand the guy and kicked him out of meetings and and made a spectacle of himself aren't necessarily contradictory at all.

I suspect Einhorn's contribution was his status as a kind of local hippy guru in the city of Philly and just by nature of his involvement (wanted or not by the other organizers) he effectively served as a local promoter.

Even if all he did was screw things up, from the point of view of the writer who was presumable not an organizer but there in a journalistic capacity, Einhorn's antics might have indeed been regarded as playing a major role in the whole of the experience for him.

In any case, I have no idea why I'm supposed to care.
80Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:36
He described it as a positive experience and left it at that - MITH

No he described how it developed, who they brought in to shepherd it and in what order.

And the problem is exactly that you don't care who and what is behind the things you support.
81sarge33rd
      ID: 353491011
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 12:48
someone who may have had some degree of involvement, with one event which has grown exponentially over the years; is nothing to be concerned with.

If you looked at your family lineage, is there a horse thief back there anywhere? You want us, or anyone, to judge you based on that?
82Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 13:00
No he described how it developed, who they brought in to shepherd it and in what order.

You say described, I say mentioned. Is that a book about the organization of the first Earth Day event? Is there any mention (description?) of it in the book aside from those 4 sentences?

Read the paragraphs befor and after. It's fondly remembered events of 1970 in a chapter titled "The Environmental Decade." The portion you provide are all 4 of the sentences he dedicates to Earth Week.

Not a detailed description of the events of that week. A short, passive mention that included no (read: glosses over all of the) anecdotal details.

But please, explain to me again why I care about this beyond the sport of pointing out BS.
83Boldwin
      ID: 48351195
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 14:47
You should all look at the private lives of the philosophers who built your intellectual structure without your being conscious of them. See how their beliefs worked out for the persons in their own families. See how it works out when their ideas have been put to the test on a national scale.

Or you can just keep on doing more of the same and expecting different outcomes.
84Tree
      ID: 17039238
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:15
I'm under the impression that the greater Earth Day started with the Philadelphia event.

according to wikipedia, Gaylord Nelson conceived the idea after a trip to California and seeing how awful a recent oil spill had been.

the initial planning then began in DC. the DC event, featuring keynote speaker Pete Seeger, was intended to be the main event, seconded by NYC and then Philly. Philly turned their Earth Day event into an Earth Week event, which in turn made it probably the biggest of the events.

that being said, Einhorn's limited involvement was with the Philly event, as for whether that means he was involved with planning the whole kit-and-caboodle, i suppose, is up for debate.

But please, explain to me again why I care about this beyond the sport of pointing out BS.

i think this plays a key role here. for me, it's a poster that repeatedly lies, misrepresents, or distorts the truth, being called on it time and time again, and being faced with pretty clear evidence he's wrong.

most of us who post here have been wrong at some point or another on these boards, and those same folks - myself included - have conceded the point.

why Baldwin can't find it in himself to concede a point (oh, right, Messiah complex) is baffling, especially on such a minor, insignificant thing as this, as if even if Ira Einhorn had been the founder of Earth Day all by his lonesome, it would some diminish the importance of the event.

And the problem is exactly that you don't care who and what is behind the things you support.

says the guy who has routinely praised criminals as heroes and excused criminal acts if they are in the name of a political cause he believes in.

85Mith
      ID: 50151411
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 15:21
Post 83:

See See #747 here.
86boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Tue, Apr 24, 2012, 16:41
I am sorry to interrupt but this has to be the dumbest threads in a while a)who cares who started earth day (or even if they murdered someone), its about a meaningful as taco day(oct 4) and b) give it Boldwin even if you are right no one is going to except it based the lousy evidence you post.
87Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:36
The landmines already placed and ready to kill us in the next four years -

...the result of an unprecedented regulatory assault on coal that will leave us all much poorer...
Last week PJM Interconnection, the company that operates the electric grid for 13 states...held its 2015 capacity auction. These are the first real, market prices that take Obama’s most recent anti-coal regulations into account, and they prove that he is keeping his 2008 campaign promise to make electricity prices “necessarily skyrocket.”

The market-clearing price for new 2015 capacity – almost all natural gas – was $136 per megawatt. That’s eight times higher than the price for 2012, which was just $16 per megawatt. [new capacity, not total capacity - B] In the mid-Atlantic area covering New Jersey, Delaware, Pennsylvania, and DC the new price is $167 per megawatt. For the northern Ohio territory served by FirstEnergy, the price is a shocking $357 per megawatt.

Why the massive price increases? Andy Ott from PJM stated the obvious: “Capacity prices were higher than last year's because of retirements of existing coal-fired generation resulting largely from environmental regulations which go into effect in 2015.” Northern Ohio is suffering from more forced coal-plant retirements than the rest of the region, hence the even higher price.

These are not computer models or projections or estimates. These are the actual prices that electric distributors have agreed to pay for new capacity. The costs will be passed on to consumers at the retail level.

House Energy and Power Subcommittee Chairman Ed Whitfield (R-Ky.) aptly explained: “The PJM auction forecasts a dim future where Americans will be paying more to keep the lights on. We are seeing more and more coal plants fall victim to EPA’s destructive regulatory agenda, and as a result, we are seeing more job losses and higher electricity prices.”

The only thing that can stop this massive price hike now is an all-out effort to end Obama’s War on Coal and repeal this destructive regulatory agenda.

The Senate will have a critical opportunity to do just that when it votes on stopping Obama’s most expensive anti-coal regulation sometime in the next couple of weeks. The vote is on the Inhofe Resolution, S.J. Res 37, to overturn the so-called Utility MACT rule, which the EPA itself acknowledges is its most expensive rule ever.

This vote is protected from filibuster, and it will take just 51 votes to send a clear message to Obama that his War on Coal must end.

Of course, Obama could veto the resolution and keep the rule intact, although that would force him to take full political responsibility for the massive impending jump in electricity prices. [but what does he care, those hikes would take place in his lame duck term - B]
What is needed is four years of tearing out the landmines Obama's czars have planted to go off in the next four years.
88Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:37
Source
89Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 13:59
Keeping clean has its costs.
90Mith
      ID: 514182515
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 16:33
Yes, PD, but not nearly as much as Boldwin and that writer want you to believe.
Kerpen got it right at the start – the Energy Information Administration has reported a dramatic drop in coal-fired generation in West Virginia – from 44.6 percent last year to nearly 36 percent of generation in this quarter.

Kerpen's story focuses on an announcement from PJM Interconnection, the company that operates the electric grid for Delaware, Illinois, Indiana, Kentucky, Maryland, Michigan, New Jersey, North Carolina, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Tennessee, Virginia, West Virginia and the District of Columbia. The announcement regarded the results of its capacity auction.


He goes on to state that northern Ohio will suffer even more.

All of that information is correct. He again rightly points out that they are prices paid by electric distributors for new capacity, not models or projects. The next statement – that "the costs will be passed on to consumers at the retail level" may not be untrue, but does gloss over a quote in the same news release Kerpen mined for the prior Ott quote:
Ott noted that the 2015 capacity prices' overall effect on retail consumers' electricity rates is expected to be moderated by other factors. "Capacity is a fairly small component of the retail price of electricity, and the cost of capacity at the retail level tends to be averaged out over several years," Ott explained. "In addition, if natural gas prices remain low, that would tend to restrain retail electricity prices."
Basically, the cost the consumer pays involves more than simple contract prices paid to generators. While there is a legitimate argument that current conditions discourage burning coal, there is also the problem of cheap and currently abundant shale gas resources competing for the same market share as coal.

While replacing coal with some renewables is not necessarily immediately cost-effective, natural gas plants can currently heavily compete with coal plants. It's also notable that many coal-fired plants were near retirement anyway due to age, inefficiency or both compared to natural gas or modern coal plants.


It's not to say recent environmental regulations have not cost the industry – but it remains unclear just how much it will cost consumers. Answering that question involves a number of externalities with answers that vary depending on who you ask.
How disappointed Boldwin will be to read this.
91Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 20:22
there is also the problem of cheap and currently abundant shale gas resources competing for the same market share as coal.

The cost of that 'cheap' competing gas went up eight times for all new gas fired capacity.

It is misleading to pretend the 'abundant' gas will be cheap. Far far from it. That won't change at least until new power plants are approved and built.

Try getting power plants approved and built. About as easy as building a refinery with enviro-weenies screwing everything up. Maybe in a couple decades that 'cheap gas' will be cheap.
92Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 22:31
You mean like this one? In the heart of KY coal country?
93Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Fri, May 25, 2012, 23:50
The PSC disagreed with environmental groups, including the Sierra Club and Natural Resources Defense Council, which said KU and LG&E could economically meet their power needs through a combination of wind power and more aggressive efforts to reduce the demand for electricity.

Just cause you've got the Kentucky Public Service Commission sold doesn't mean the EPA has given final approval.
94Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 00:00
Of course. All you have is the fear of the future, not the facts of the present.

Keep hoping for more bad news.

I was just reading a forthcoming biography of a girl raised in the 1950's in a Bircher household. Reminded me of you.
95Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 00:34
Keep hoping for more bad news.

Here's hoping every trace of Obama is erased. All good.
96Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 01:34
As with Clinton: Kicking and screaming into economic prosperity.
97Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 04:15
Yeah, just like in what other communitarian paradise?
98Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 11:39
And that was the Ronald Reagan/Newt Gingerich 20 year boom. Clinton was prevented from screwing it up.
99Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 12:13
Heh. Unlike those two, he submitted a budget which was balanced. Pat yourself on the back all you want.
100Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 13:21
It's the only time conservatism has even been partially tried in this country. Worked like a charm.
101Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 13:23
The only time since FDR. [wasn't tried much by Bush 1&2 either]
102Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 15:28
True. But you learned the wrong lesson (as usual). Working a conservative-leaning Democratic president can work some good deals for each side, and you've had a chance with Obama as well. Instead, the GOP thought it can just be dicks, oppose everything and "win" in the end by being the out party during an economic downturn. Being against the president on everything isn't a political position--it is a pathology.
103Boldwin
      ID: 3944693
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 15:52
Trying to spend you way out of debt is a pathology.
104Perm Dude
      ID: 3210201915
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 20:15
We're not trying to spend our way out of debt. We're trying to keep the economy going during a depression.

You are under the misunderstanding that we're trying to solve the problem of debt, when we have more pressing problems to solve first.
105Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sat, May 26, 2012, 21:08
You are under the misunderstanding that we're trying to solve the problem of debt, when we have more pressing problems to solve first.

Fortunately, both Obama and Romney understand that spending cuts must be limited to avoid a full-blown depression.
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