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Subject: What? No Afghanistan Thread?
Posted by: Boxman
- [2951510] Fri, Jun 05, 2009, 15:58
OK. This is a smart move. I read the book Kill Bin Laden around Christmas last year. Highly recommended read that goes over Delta Force's mission to...well...kill OBL and how things got in the way of that.
Hopefully we take the handcuffs off and let these boys kill.
1,000 More Special Forces to Afghanistan |
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| 109 | Boldwin
ID: 575102918
Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 19:19
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Sox
If Cindy Sheehan didn't exist, how much do you think Mullah Omar would pay to invent her?
If Cindy Sheehan didn't exist how easy would it be to find another?
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| 110 | Boldwin
ID: 575102918
Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 19:24
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Sox
I completely agree that it is essential that the military uphold the tradition of obeying the civilian authority. No one wants to see military juntas taking over the government like in so many other places in the world.
On the otherhand, what order do you think he disobeyed and what quote actually attributed to him was he fired for?
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| 111 | soxzeitgeist
ID: 155522920
Tue, Jun 29, 2010, 21:55
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Cindy Sheehan was/is a marginal figure at best, boldwin. Your elevation of her to some kind of mainstream folk hero gives her far more credit than she ever really garnered in any quarters but the far Left. Most moderates (and any decent person) sympathise with her loss, but recognize that her politics are far more liberal (and even utopian) than most of the country.
And lest we forget, her "schtick" is the loss of her son in Iraq. I wonder if you would sit quietly at home if you lost a child in the same manner, and under the same circumstances (ie; not believing the war was necessary or justified). Somehow I doubt it.
As to McChrystal, there was no "order he disobeyed", but clearly there was a level of disrespect exhibited towards the civilian command structure by McChrystal and his staff. And before you say "well it's his staff, not him", it is him as commander if he allows that level of dissatisfaction to boil over into comments that violate Article 88. Add to that his track record - which includes an active hand in the Pat Tillman cover-up and the '06 detainee abuse and torture scandal at Camp Nama, and he had to be disciplined. Even his very public drumming up support for more troops while Obama made his decision is, by the strictest interpretation, mildly insuboordinate.
I personally like the idea of a CO that speaks his mind with his troops and the public. I know from friends (well, one) that they loved the way he did business at JSOC while he was there, and he is known as an extremely smart and hard working soldier. But in the end it's about the accountability and the chain of command. Obama simply did what was necessary to preserve that. A president who doesn’t show his generals who's boss is no longer running anything.
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| 112 | Boldwin
ID: 43528308
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 09:28
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I'll give you an E for effort, but I gave you an impossible job.
Your elevation of her to some kind of mainstream folk hero - Liberals aren't mainstream.
As to McChrystal, there was no "order he disobeyed" - Thank you
I personally like the idea of a CO that speaks his mind with his troops - Thank you
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| 113 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 09:51
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So, if liberals aren't mainstream, does that mean by definition that the "mainstream" media isn't liberal?
Or do you just get to totally make word definitions up as you go along?
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| 114 | Mith
ID: 37540118
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 09:55
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If Sheehan was a liberal folk hero, she was one with about as much staying power as Joe the Plumber had on the right. And like him, Sheehan hung around after her 15 minutes were up.
Of course, unlike the unlicensed plumber's helper who became famous for deliberately stepping in front of a camera (and making his point with a phoney sob story about how Obama's proposals will prevent him from buying a business that he could only afford in his dreams - in lieu of the actual truth that he would have been better off under the proposed tax policy) Sheehan most certainly did not willfully set up her moment of fame and it was certainly not based on any lie.
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| 115 | Boldwin
ID: 43528308
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 10:36
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"[The American anti-war movement] was essential to our strategy. Support for the war from our rear was completely secure while the American rear was vulnerable. Every day our leadership would listen to world news over the radio at 9 a.m. to follow the growth of the American antiwar movement. Visits to Hanoi by people like Jane Fonda and former Attorney General Ramsey Clark and ministers gave us confidence that we should hold on in the face of battlefield reverses. We were elated when Jane Fonda, wearing a red Vietnamese dress, said at a press conference that she was ashamed of American actions in the war and that she would struggle along with us."
"The conscience of America was part of its war-making capability, and we were turning that power in our favor. America lost because of its democracy; through dissent and protest it lost the ability to mobilize a will to win." - Bui Tin, served on the general staff of the North Vietnamese army, once interrogated John McCain, Vice Chief Editor of the People's Daily (Nhân Dân, the official newspaper of the Communist Party of Vietnam), responsible for the Sunday People's (Nhân Dân Chủ Nhật)
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| 116 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 10:48
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1. The Vietnam War ended 35 years ago. congrats on living in the present.
2. note your own quote - "America lost because of its democracy."
by using this quote to support your own "facts", you do appear to be also be supporting the end of American democracy.
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| 117 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 10:49
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America lost because of its democracy
Good.
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| 118 | Boldwin
ID: 43528308
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 10:51
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See #97.
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| 119 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 10:59
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...for an example of idiocy.
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| 120 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 11:00
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America soured on the Vietnam War because the essential lie of the war (that we were "winning") was shown to be such to the American people through the Press reporting the truth.
Drilling down a little deeper on this "Press is a willing tool of the enemy" meme, one merely has to do the thought exercise of "what would happen if you removed the press from the equation, then. Apparently conservatives want a military which lies about its ability to pursue and attain a military strategy and they want one without any independent oversight.
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| 121 | Perm Dude
ID: 5510572522
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 11:02
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One also should notice, that in Vietnam, the worst-possible scenario occurred for those who supported the war. But the long term outcome of the war had virtually none of the doomsdays that were predicted.
Conservative predictions on wars has been pretty awful. For a long time. Until they get one right I think we can safely ignore them.
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| 122 | Boldwin
ID: 43528308
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 11:02
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So, if liberals aren't mainstream, does that mean by definition that the "mainstream" media isn't liberal? - DWetz
When liberals admit the truth about what the ratings for Fox and CNN means, I'll also change the term I use for them.
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| 123 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 11:51
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So you concede that every time you have bashed the liberal mainstream media, you were just making up terms as you go along, like Humpty-Dumpty. Refreshing honesty.
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| 124 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 12:06
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dude, with every meal he eats, he visits this website to figure out what he's going to post next.
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| 125 | DWetzel
ID: 278201415
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 12:41
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You know who else tried to do that? Hitler.
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| 126 | Razor
ID: 57854118
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 13:12
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What's sad is that even with 40 years of hindsight, Boldwin still can't grasp the futility of the Vietnam War, nor come to grips with the fact that communism did not, in fact, proliferate as a result of leaving.
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| 127 | Tree
ID: 248472317
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 14:33
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he's a sniper in the trees, unaware the Vietnam war ended 35 years ago.
heck, he's still hanging on every word of the HUAC.
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| 128 | sox, infuriated
ID: 545313014
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 15:33
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It's funny how it only takes a post or two to remind me why I have far, far better things to do than participate in many of the discussions here.
Boldwin. Once again, your posts are little concerned with facts or any semblance of reality. As far as I can tell, your 112 is little more than an attempt at a "gotcha", as if we're keeping score or something.
There didn't need to be an "order refused" by McChrystal for the President to call him to the carpet. Did you not see the UCMJ article in 106? I put it in bold font for a reason! I opted to give you the benefit of the doubt, because I get that you never served in the military, and so tried to explain that it's about accountability and the chain of command. But your steadfast refusal to understand the culture of the military is exactly that - a refusal to try to understand. Instead, you're going to ignore 230 plus years of tradition and discipline, and discount the chain of command and the culture of accountability that make the military work. Way to fit the issue to your narrow worldview.
MITH did a far better job than I could in pointing out the idiocy of your issues with Cindy Sheehan.
And as to having a CO that speaks his mind to his troops, there's a world of difference with what is said to a group of comrades in arms than in talking to a Rolling Stone reporter. Every person here has had a locker room conversation or told a joke that they wouldn't repeat in front of a spouse or child. I would have guessed that you would have understood that, but apparently those subtleties are lost on you.
And Vietnam? Really? What's next? You going to excorciate TR for breaking up Standard Oil?
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| 129 | biliruben
ID: 358252515
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 16:08
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Look up anosognosic, and you'll see baldwin's pretty mug
smiling blissfully out at you.
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| 130 | Boldwin
ID: 43528308
Wed, Jun 30, 2010, 16:16
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nor come to grips with the fact that communism did not, in fact, proliferate as a result of leaving. - Razor
The USA is on life support in the form of credit from communist China, Russia has eliminated their national debt and is proposing it's currency be made the world's currency, The Viet Nam War era marxists who took over the institutions in the 1960's now have their man in the White House, and you think it worked out swell.
Well you would.
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| 131 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 20:01
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Perhaps the hardest lesson learned from practically abandoning a war started for legitimate reasons favor of wholly unnecessary but much sexier conflict.
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| 132 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 37838313
Sun, Jul 25, 2010, 20:17
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Boldwin 03.05.03: Contrary to what we have been told [President Bush] is able to chew gum and walk at the same time.
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| 133 | walk
ID: 348442710
Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 15:22
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9 Afghan Boys Killed by Accidental NATO Strike
So many reasons why we should no longer be there. Our presence seems infinite (10 years?!?), and it's to contain whatever could happen with nukes in Pakistan's unstable gov't. We (more so they, as in Afghanistan) just cannot afford it, on so many levels.
Who has the courage to say "we are outta here."...? I wish Obama would do this. My biggest and maybe only beef with him. Maybe the tea baggers, with their libertarian bent, can start the rallying cry. It would also reduce our debt if we left.
Oy yoi yoi.
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| 134 | Building 7
Leader
ID: 171572711
Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 16:20
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I'm with you walk. Unless we're gauranteed some oil or minerals, get out. I thought Obama campaigned to do that.
Some day, those drones will be pointed at us and we're not going to like it. 100,000 troops vs. 100 Al-Quaida in Afghanistan. Hugely expensive.
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| 135 | Mith
ID: 4010542612
Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 16:28
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I thought Obama campaigned to do that.
He didn't. He promised to draw down in Iraq and refocus on Afghanistan.
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| 136 | walk
ID: 348442710
Wed, Mar 02, 2011, 17:21
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Right, Obama referred to Afghanistan as the right war, or something like that. It's an endless quagmire of horror and waste.
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| 137 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 18:55
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US leaving Afghanistan much earlier than the schedule.
Combat troops out by mid-2013. Great, great news.
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| 138 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:18
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Did I just miss the name of the general who thinks that target time makes any sense based on the situation?
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| 139 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:45
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How many years to the USSR waste money and lives in Afghanistan? For how many years, have we done the same?
AA (after action) report in the military, aka "lessons learned". I think it is high time, we acknowledge the lesson.
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| 140 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:48
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Is it a military or a re-election decision?
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| 141 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 19:59
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Like the soldiers care.
Since we're talking about mid 2013, what do you think?
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| 142 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 20:14
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I don't think it's even debatable until you come up with a general who thinks it makes any military sense.
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| 143 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 20:23
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I dont think you have a single clue as to what does or doesnt, make military sense. Go read another book, since thats as close to the military as you will ever get.
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| 144 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Thu, Feb 02, 2012, 21:36
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I don't think it's even debatable until you come up with a general who thinks it makes any military sense.
Sweet. See you in another thread, then.
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| 145 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 08:27
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So the plan is to have soldiers out by 2013 appears to me to be a re-election promise. Didn't Obama also promise to have soldiers out of Iraq by 2009 in the last election? That seems to be more of a re-election then military decision. Asking the same about this one is a fair question.
I'm not sure if it makes military sense. I'll leave that to the people with intel on the situation and the possible effects of the withdrawal. Regardless I'm going to hope that it was made for military reasons and even if it was for political reasons I don't think we have the will or the ability to actually make a significant change in the region militarily.
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| 146 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:26
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It was actually more of an election promise. You might recall he wanted to get out of Iraq as part of his primary and general campaign for President.
As a candidate, he also promised to go into Pakistan if they had "actionable intelligence" and take out Bin Laden. He was widely ridiculed by the Right for that one.
As for Afghanistan, from what I'm hearing (granted, these are from the soldiers on the ground) we are doing absolutely nothing of importance at this point. The Taliban are mostly gone or on the run. What few al qaeda were there are no longer--moved across the border for the most part. We have no reason to be there.
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| 147 | Perm Dude
ID: 3210201915
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:40
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I should point out that many are trying to make this whole thing a question of whether, if true and handled as planned, this will help Obama. That's a real politico.com way of looking at things, and kinda sad.
Is pulling out the right thing to do? Yes. End of story, IMO. The fact that political leaders sometimes make decisions based upon their own best interests and that might have entered into this decision (we don't know for sure) to a degree (if so) that we can't determine is an exercise in political theory masturbation and self-importance.
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| 148 | Boldwin
ID: 49030519
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 10:44
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Is pulling out the right thing to do? Yes.
Then how hard could it be to find some presidential butt kissing careerist general to declare it's a great idea from a military POV?
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| 149 | Frick
ID: 14082314
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 11:02
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I agree that it probably is the right thing to do, but it is a fair question to ask if the timing has more to do with politics then reality. The same questions were asked of Bush at the end of his term when the economy was collapsing.
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| 150 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 11:45
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Then how hard could it be to find some presidential butt kissing careerist general to declare it's a great idea from a military POV?
Because this isn't a war. It's an occupation. A war is competing nation militaries, where victory is determined when one nation surrenders to the other poltically and militarily.
The Taliban is not a nation. It doesn't have a leader of a united Taliban that can be eliminated, or a capital city that can be captured. There are scores of Taliban cells that operate in the shadows, and some of these shadows aren't even in Afghanistan. We've been there over 10 years. We could be there another 10 years with basically the same situation.
From a military POV, the objective should be to eradicate the Taliban's ability to buy arms, to feed and shelter themselves. As long as there is an influx of Pakistanis, Saudis, Uzbeks and other foreign jihadists in the mix, that objective will a monumental task.
It's time for Afghanis to step up to the plate and provide for their own security. It's hard to know if the culture at large will embrace concepts like education for girls, when ex-pats in Canada kill their wives and daughters for being too Westernized. But no amount of military might or strategy employed by our generals, presidential butt-kissers or not, can dictate a culture that has known only war for over 30 years, and embraces a religious dogma which condemns the values that we hold dear.
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| 151 | sarge33rd
ID: 211332319
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 13:52
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re 148...because whether or not the General thinks it is a great, or rotten idea...is irrelevant,. The generals JOB; is to do what the president orders done. PERIOD.
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| 152 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 17:25
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Does this mean the surge failed or worked? You know I am not sure this even helps him politically, so at least in my opinion they are doing for exactly why they say they are.
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| 153 | Pancho Villa
ID: 597172916
Fri, Feb 03, 2012, 18:01
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Does this mean the surge failed or worked?
Just like with the 2009 stimulus, it depends on who you ask. What's truly ironic is that most of those who say the stimulus was a complete failure and a waste of money are the same ones who want to continue to stay in Afghanistan, regardless of the cost, both monetary and human.
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| 154 | Tree
ID: 17039238
Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 20:51
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US soldier kills 16 Afghans, deepening crisis
An American soldier opened fire on villagers near his base in southern Afghanistan Sunday and killed 16 civilians, according to President Hamid Karzai, who called it an "assassination" and furiously demanded an explanation from Washington. Nine children and three women were among the dead.
imho, this person is obviously deranged, and no different than Malik Nadal Hasan. in many ways, this is a worse situation, because of the international implications.
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| 155 | DWetzel
ID: 33337117
Sun, Mar 11, 2012, 21:53
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Karzai was nice. He should have called it a terrorist attack.
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| 156 | Tree
ID: 512141211
Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 12:17
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this is going to get ugly, and Americans will likely die because of this.
but, it's a natural progression for people who find pissing on corpses and burning holy books acceptable. When you dehumanize someone, it becomes easier to kill them.
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| 157 | boikin
ID: 532592112
Mon, Mar 12, 2012, 13:34
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I would think that if anything good come out of this it will be the withdrawal of troops will probably be sped up, hopefully.
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| 158 | Mith
ID: 18451815
Sat, Nov 17, 2012, 23:20
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Taliban spokesperson uses CC instead of BCC, accidentally reveals mailing list.
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