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0 Subject: Stock Melt down August 07 Thread

Posted by: nerveclinic
- [27051103] Thu, Aug 16, 2007, 11:24



I thought I would move the discussion here since we were high jacking a perfectly good housing discussion thread.


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995Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Sun, Jan 02, 2011, 09:47
Gold had a good year. Silver even better. Copper had the best year. That makes sense, since copper is a metal that actually has intrinsic value.
This is especially telling because neither copper nor silver have saturated advertising campaigns and celebrity hawkers like gold.

I'm also a bit confused that the promotion of gold is spearheaded by those who regard themselves as "patriots."

It would seem to me that the patriotic investment would be in government and municipal bonds, which help keep taxes lower while improving infrastructure and, in many cases, providing jobs, especially in the case of muni bonds. But as we enter 2011, there's widespread fear that the muni bond market is in serious trouble.
That means that if the muni bond for your sewer system defaults, there will need to be a huge increase in local taxes in order for that sewer system to remain solvent. For those of us hooked up to a public system and enjoy indoor plumbing, that's something to consider. Those who have a private septic system can disregard, but you'll still have to endure the tax increase.

996Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Sun, Jan 02, 2011, 09:52
#994: T-bills are backed by the full faith and protection of the US government. According to the article (did you read it?) people are buying gold now not as a protection but in the hopes that others will buy as well. It is speculative.

I get it--some institutions and individuals buy metals during times of high inflation. But this reason makes no sense in a low-inflation economy (and, in some areas, we are in a deflationary period).

This is a bubble.
997Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 09:13
The Real Reason Paul Volcker Wants Out by Jeff Berwick at kitco.com. Excerpt:

In 2010 the US government paid $414 billion in interest expenses. Considering the US had approximately $13 trillion in "official" debt in 2010 that implies a 3.1% interest rate. At what interest rate would interest payments on current debt outstrip the current government income (minus social security taxes) of $1.44 trillion? 11.1%.

Ben Bernanke must somehow keep interest rates below 11.1% or 100% of the US Government's income will be paid solely to interest costs rendering the Government insolvent.

The problem is if he holds interest rates at artificially low levels much longer the US dollar will go into hyperinflation.

Paul Volcker had two options: Hold interest rates artificially low and destroy the US dollar in a hyperinflation or allow the market to achieve its natural interest rate level (which ended up being nearly 16%) and allow the game to continue on a while longer.
Ben Bernanke also has two options: Hold interest rates artificially low and destroy the US dollar in a hyperinflation or allow the markets to achieve its natural interest rate and bankrupt the US Government, destroying the dollar.

Both of Bernanke's options end up in the destruction of the US dollar.

No wonder Volcker didn't want to be around to have his picture taken on the day that happens.
998biliruben
      ID: 34820210
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 09:29
There is no evidence of hyper-inflation worries in the long-term bond markets.

There is no chance the US government would ever pay double digit interest.

Berwick is a simpleton.
999Pancho Villa
      ID: 597172916
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 10:00
Volcker didn't want to be around to have his picture taken on the day that happens.

Volker is 83. How much longer does anyone expect him to be around having his picture taken as a viable economist? At what age is he allowed to retire because he's really old, as opposed to retreating because of gloom and doom predictions?

1000boikin
      ID: 532592112
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 15:20
There is no chance the US government would ever pay double digit interest.

you mean in the future or ever, because they did in the early 80's.
1001Boldwin
      ID: 34016715
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 16:16
All good points but this leaves out that he might not want to be around when the world decides to no longer use the dollar as the world reserve currency/oil currency.

Soon and bad for us in a major way. Maybe this year.
1002biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 18:15
I'll take that bet. What odds will yo give me?

Boikin-obviously if inflation is running double-digits, interest rates will also go that direction.

Since I see no evidence of the former, I wont expect the latter. This is all in the medium term. Once Palin elected all bets are off.

I'd charge her 20%, and still feel a little shaky about loaning her money.
1003Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Fri, Jan 07, 2011, 23:07
Inflation certainly isn't a problem for the short or medium term, that's for sure.
1004nerveclinic
      ID: 01154411
      Mon, Jan 10, 2011, 16:33

Both of Bernanke's options end up in the destruction of the US dollar.

What makes you think that isn't the desired solution to the debt problem?

If we pay back the Chinese trillions at 1/4 the value.....

There is no evidence of hyper-inflation worries in the long-term bond markets.

Is it possible that is because the federal reserve is buying up excess debt right now? (printing money) Because they are. Bond market rates don't go up until there is no one buying and right now the Federal Reserve is buying.

1005biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Tue, Jan 11, 2011, 17:15
I guess.

Except they were low before they starting buying too.
1006nerveclinic
      ID: 01154411
      Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 09:01

Except they were low before they starting buying too.

That's because we were in an extreme panic mode, virtual fear of depression, and people were trying to get their hands on US Bonds as a safe haven tool. There was such a demand and shortage of supply the bonds were able to go at almost flat.


As that fear drys up, the Fed has been stepping in and buying US debt. Some call this printing money.

There is a concept out there that they plan to inflate their way out of the debt problem. That's why the Chinese became so concerned when they saw what the fed was doing.



1008biliruben
      ID: 34435239
      Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 09:22
600 billion is a pretty small sum in the bond markets. This alone would not be close to enough quell inflation.

The Chinese have been keeping their currency artificially low in comparison to the dollar by buying US currency in order to keep their economy blazing hot. They are just much more consistent at it and doing it in much larger quantities. Of course they are now seeing inflation problems as a consequence. They are just a little pissed we are trying to in some measure counteract that, fix the trade imbalance and decrease our unemployment rate.

We are doing it on far too small a scale to possibly compete, however.
1009Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 11:28
Don't worry, there will be a QE 3 and so on , up to QE10, since Bernanke thinks unemployment may be a problem for 5 years. QE3 = Creating money out of thin air, round 3......in normal English.
1010biliruben
      ID: 358252515
      Wed, Jan 12, 2011, 12:50
I'm not a big fan of QE, but its better than nothing. I am not as confident as you that bernanke or anyone else give a damn about the widespread suffering and long-term damage to our society and economy that perpetually high unemployment is causing. At least they don't appear to care enough to vocally counter the "pain is necessary" moronosphere. I would lay 50-50 odds we have seen the last of the QE.
1011nerveclinic
      ID: 01154411
      Thu, Jan 13, 2011, 17:23

600 billion is a pretty small sum in the bond markets. This alone would not be close to enough quell inflation.

I didn't say it was keeping inflation down.

It is keeping down interest rates on treasuries. If the Fed wasn't buying the unwanted treasuries (At these rates), which is creating demand, they would have to raise interest rates to get others to buy. So the interest rate is being kept artificially low. I don't think that is even disputed.

So you were siting interest rates as evidence the markets are not worried about inflation and I am saying the real reason is the Fed is manufacturing low interest rate demand.

1012Perm Dude
      ID: 5510572522
      Thu, Jan 13, 2011, 17:47
So the interest rate is being kept artificially low

I think the only dispute would be the use of the word "artificially."
1013Building 7
      Leader
      ID: 171572711
      Tue, Feb 22, 2011, 13:44
Why Isn't Wall Street in Jail? by Matt Taibbi at rollingstone.com.

Over drinks at a bar on a dreary, snowy night in Washington this past month, a former Senate investigator laughed as he polished off his beer.

"Everything's ****ed up, and nobody goes to jail," he said. "That's your whole story right there. Hell, you don't even have to write the rest of it. Just write that."

I put down my notebook. "Just that?"

"That's right," he said, signaling to the waitress for the check. "Everything's ****ed up, and nobody goes to jail. You can end the piece right there."

Not a single executive who ran the companies that cooked up and cashed in on the phony financial boom an industrywide scam that involved the mass sale of mismarked, fraudulent mortgage-backed securities has ever been convicted. Their names by now are familiar to even the most casual Middle American news consumer: companies like AIG, Goldman Sachs, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan Chase, Bank of America and Morgan Stanley. Most of these firms were directly involved in elaborate fraud and theft. Lehman Brothers hid billions in loans from its investors. Bank of America lied about billions in bonuses. Goldman Sachs failed to tell clients how it put together the born-to-lose toxic mortgage deals it was selling. What's more, many of these companies had corporate chieftains whose actions cost investors billions from AIG derivatives chief Joe Cassano, who assured investors they would not lose even "one dollar" just months before his unit imploded, to the $263 million in compensation that former Lehman chief Dick "The Gorilla" Fuld conveniently failed to disclose. Yet not one of them has faced time behind bars.
1014DWetzel
      ID: 278201415
      Wed, Feb 23, 2011, 17:45
Probably not exactly the right spot, but still pretty darn awesome.
1015biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 09:42
With S&P and fresh highs, is it safe to butt this thread?

I'd forgotten all about the 1536 vs. 1336 bet.

We are currently at 1984 and the low was somewhere frighteningly close to 666 a little over 5 years ago.

1984. 666. If you are a numerologist, go make some money!
1016Gator
      ID: 13521231
      Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 11:48
Right, it is always a good idea to jump on a bubble before it burst.
1017Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 12:04
That's right--we are always on the edge of Obamarmageddon. So long as you only listen to the Right wing meme machine.
1018Pancho Villa
      ID: 2131916
      Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 12:42
How Gator celebrated 4th of July

Faux conservatism at its most bizarre.
1019biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Mon, Jul 07, 2014, 13:47
Right, it is always a good idea to jump on a bubble before it burst.

It's much better to sit on the sidelines and fondle your two gold-eagles, rubbing them together and moaning, as your net-worth spills slowly onto the floor in sprinkles of gold dust.

1020biliruben
      ID: 561162511
      Wed, Jul 09, 2014, 16:32
1018 is hilarious.

Prius's should come with a "Lightning Bolt Mod". Give those "rigs" a jolt, and show 'em how enviroweenies harness mother nature.
1021Boldwin
      ID: 54641010
      Thu, Jul 10, 2014, 19:37
Blame it on algorithm buying or pump-n-dumpers or who knows what else, money laundering...who knows but This Penny Stock went from 6 cents to $16 and nearly 5 billion in market capitalization in less than a month.

One employee, no website, disconnected phone, no revenue.
1022biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Wed, Feb 04, 2015, 00:11


Different this time? Or just a another v-shaped recovery?

I am guessing (and gambling on) the later. Price was just too tasty at $44.
1023nerveclinic
      ID: 42105017
      Fri, Feb 06, 2015, 17:58

How are you buying in Bili?

What is your oil trade? I am looking for one
1024Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Sat, Feb 07, 2015, 10:43
Hard to resist at that price. Though I believe it will drop down a bit more, it certainly will bounce above that, at some point. Perhaps by a lot.
1025biliruben
      ID: 81382416
      Sat, Feb 07, 2015, 10:54
Yeah, as long as you keep a medium-term view and don't panic if it hits 25, I don't see how you can screw it up.

Of course, I've been wrong before and commodities are tricky and not for the faint of heart. More easily manipulated via government intervention or by a big player.

That's how we have an advantage on the institutional guy with a shorter-term horizon. I think.
1026biliruben
      ID: 105572020
      Mon, Feb 09, 2015, 11:57
So nerve expressed concern about the oil double-short I bought, and how well it reflects the actual price fluctuations of oil. I am also interested. I'll attempt to track how well proshares does here, unless, I get too bored or sell.

Bought UCO on 1/28/15 at $6.75. It is currently at $9.46, for a gain of 40.1%

WTI was at about $44.75 and is currently at $53.32, for a gain of 19.2%.

Times 2 (as its a double long) 38.4%.

I may be a bit off in what oil was going for, but not by much.

Looks like proshares is doing a pretty good job of emulating the price of oil so far...
1027Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:16
The market has never been as sure of a crash dead ahead as it is right now.
As of this week - there has never been a bigger speculative long VIX position (implicitly bearish stocks).
1028Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:18
[*not implying the price of oil will track the economy. I really don't know how that will play out.]
1029Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:22
8/...then again, an oil glut combined with a massive economy slowdown...can't be good for the price of oil. If anyone can see how it would be, I'd be fascinated.
1030Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:24
I have no real confidence in Zero Hedge, who have taken their readers to the cleaners time after time by surrounding conspiracy theory posts with ads pumping gold and silver.

They are Glenn Beck, if Glenn Beck used a pseudonym.
1031biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:26
If you can't handle a bear market, you should be investing in taco stands or something.

Of course there is going to be a market downturn. maybe 10%, maybe 60%. Who knows. It's whether you can resist the urge to sell at the bottom that counts.

Both you and Tyler are confused about what VIX measures, BTW.
1032biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:28
And the market and the economy don't go in tandem.
1033Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:33
Commodities...and by extension the economy. You've got to be kidding me or yourself if you think you understand the markets better than he does.
1034biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:36
All I'm saying is that VIX measures volatility.

And durden's like a bad fortune teller, talking in cryptic rhyme to have plausible deniability.

Listen to his voodoo at your portfolio's risk.
1035biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 22:48
You realize over the last 6 years, the market has gone up over 150%, right?

Was Mr. Fight club saying go all-in on stocks, or did he cryptically scare you into staying on the sidelines. and invest in a depreciating shiny metal?
1036Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 23:02
Ok, This specifically addresses your oil play. So you can have something to crow about when you out-think Zerohedge and the big banks betting against the price of oil. Really I'll be happy...thrilled...to be wrong if the crashing oil industry derivatives don't crash the economy. As it is I'm just grateful for every extra month it doesn't.
Most of the time, very few people ever actually read the things that the big banks write for their clients. But in recent months, a lot of these bankers are issuing such ominous warnings that you would think that they have started to write for The Economic Collapse Blog. Of course we have seen this happen before. Just before the financial crisis of 2008, a lot of people at the big banks started to get spooked, and now we are beginning to see an atmosphere of fear spread on Wall Street once again. Nobody is quite sure what is going to happen next, but an increasing number of experts are starting to agree that it wont be good.

Lets start with oil. Over the past couple of weeks, we have seen a nice rally for the price of oil. It has bounced back into the low 50s, which is still a catastrophically low level, but it has many hoping for a rebound to a range that will be healthy for the global economy.

Unfortunately, many of the experts at the big banks are now anticipating that the exact opposite will happen instead. For example, Citibank says that we could see the price of oil go as low as 20 dollars this year

The recent rally in crude prices looks more like a head-fake than a sustainable turning point The drop in US rig count, continuing cuts in upstream capex, the reading of technical charts, and investor short position-covering sustained the end-January 8.1% jump in Brent and 5.8% jump in WTI into the first week of February.

Short-term market factors are more bearish, pointing to more price pressure for the next couple of months and beyond Not only is the market oversupplied, but the consequent inventory build looks likely to continue toward storage tank tops. As on-land storage fills and covers the carry of the monthly spreads at ~$0.75/bbl, the forward curve has to steepen to accommodate a monthly carry closer to $1.20, putting downward pressure on prompt prices. As floating storage reaches its limits, there should be downward price pressure to shut in production.

The oil market should bottom sometime between the end of Q1 and beginning of Q2 at a significantly lower price level in the $40 range after which markets should start to balance, first with an end to inventory builds and later on with a period of sustained inventory draws. Its impossible to call a bottom point, which could, as a result of oversupply and the economics of storage, fall well below $40 a barrel for WTI, perhaps as low as the $20 range for a while.

Even though rigs are shutting down at a pace that we have not seen since the last recession, overall global supply still significantly exceeds overall global demand. Barclays analyst Michael Cohen recently told CNBC that at this point the total amount of excess supply is still in the neighborhood of a million barrels per day

[The following comes directly from the Bank for International Settlements]

Against this background of high debt, a fall in the price of oil weakens the balance sheets of producers and tightens credit conditions, potentially exacerbating the price drop as a result of sales of oil assets, for example, more production is sold forward, BIS said.

"Second, in flow terms, a lower price of oil reduces cash flows and increases the risk of liquidity shortfalls in which firms are unable to meet interest payments. Debt service requirements may induce continued physical production of oil to maintain cash flows, delaying the reduction in supply in the market.
---
In the end, a lot of these energy companies are going to go belly up if the price of oil does not rise significantly this year. And any financial institutions that are exposed to the debt of these companies or to energy derivatives will likely be in a great deal of distress as well.

Meanwhile, the overall global economy continues to slow down.

On Monday, we learned that the Baltic Dry Index has dropped to the lowest level ever. Not even during the darkest depths of the last recession did it drop this low.
The Baltic Dry Index being one of the most useful stats for prediction purposes that there is.

But let's all hope and pray bili knows better. $44 does seem so safe and low, doesn't it? If only systems stayed stable and we could afford normal linear thinking and ignore the blinking red indicators.
1037biliruben
      ID: 28420307
      Tue, Feb 10, 2015, 23:17
As I mentioned, previously, if it goes 25, I'm still staying long. That's the advantage that someone like us has over institutional investors, who have to answer short-term calls.

Betting less than 5% of your holdings that oil will sometime in the next 2-3 years get back somewhere in the neighborhood of 80?

I'm in. Especially when the equities market is looking so overvalued. This is not money that I could have likely found a surer upside bet with. This is money I would have kept in cash.

The question I have now is how to best make the bet. Nerve has me nervous I can't trust proshares to make the option bets for me, so I may have to do some research and make those option bets myself.
1038Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Feb 11, 2015, 00:32
Oil is down because SA continues to overproduce in order to punish Putin, combined with the record-setting oil production in the US (thanks, Obama!). Hard to tell when either of these will ease, but I'd guess early this summer those oil numbers should start consistently bumping higher and higher.

Zero Hedge will get my respect when they get something consistently right. They are far too heavy on the conspiracy theory mindset as a guide to investment--practically a recipe for bubble-making. You'd have lost your fortune several times over simply by following their over-hyped BUY GOLD! advice since they began in 2009.
1039Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Wed, Feb 11, 2015, 02:34
1040Boldwin
      ID: 510591420
      Wed, Feb 11, 2015, 02:38
SA can no longer price enforce even if they wanted to. There is way too much oil production in the world atm and they would hardly be missed if they cut off the spigot entirely. I doubt if they would make a $25 price blip if they were embargoed.
1041Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Wed, Feb 11, 2015, 10:32
They are doing the opposite of price enforcement right now, despite other OPEC nations telling them to rein it in. When they finally do dial it back, it will be with a relief for those other nations, and Russia in particular. There will be little holding back price spikes at that point.

This will affect the US only a little, as our production remains high and likely will for the near future. But other countries won't be so lucky.
1042nerveclinic
      ID: 8832812
      Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 16:10


Baldwin you watch CNBC?

That's like the Fox news of Business news.

1043nerveclinic
      ID: 8832812
      Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 16:19


PD Post 1038

They are not over producing, they are just doing the same as usual at a time when demand is down (EU and China slumps) and the USA is a new powerful producer.

Other OPEC countries want an agreement with KSA to cut back production from "normal" but they are saying no because it costs them $5 a barrel to pull it out of existing desert wells.

Some have speculated they are doing it to punish Russia, but why does Saudi really care about Russia? (Support of Syria, eh maybe) other speculation is they are pressuring Iran to sign a strong Nuclear Arms deal with USA that will assure the Iranians cannot build a bomb.

Still again just that they can pump oil out of the ground super cheap and they want to drown out weaker players who have much higher costs so they will keep dominate market share.

Baldwin 1040 there is only about a million barrel excess a day currently. KSA and other OPEC nations could easily cut back that much and almost overnight start to raise the price of oil, but as long as KSA (And Russia) refuses the rest of OPEC are powerless to do it on their own.

1044nerveclinic
      ID: 8832812
      Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 16:26

I should clarify when I say they can cut back the 1 million a day it will only do so much because yes there is so much excess supply between new USA production and decreased world demand due to economic conditions...but KSA could make a difference, they are just making a conscious decision not to.

1045Perm Dude
      ID: 431013412
      Tue, Mar 17, 2015, 16:42
The Syrian support is exactly why SA is punishing Russia. They have been sending money and weapons to the rebels for months--it is a classic proxy war.

The fact that the oil prices also hurts Iran is a bonus for them.
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