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Subject: Israel, and the Gaza evacuation part two
Posted by: nerveclinic
- [66138] Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 09:01
I am moving the thread because it was getting rather large.
Because of my current location I am at times posting here with a proxy server for obvious reasons, particularly when writing political posts, and it only allows me to download...open, limited sized files and this thread had gotten so big it wouldn't open.
Dave...Guru...in case you are wondering, the proxy is because of my current status living in a highly censored country.
The original thread is here...dang can someone else add the link, the proxy won't let me click the link button.
I will pick back up with Torals last question though.
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| 959 | Mith
ID: 231150292
Thu, Aug 28, 2014, 08:29
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Sure.
As long as you can somehow choose to remain ignorant of the fact that "turning Gaza into a parking lot" meas the death of everyone in the place, not just Hamas.
The term is ethnic cleansing. And you are just diddly-darn surprised that Israel has shown the incredible restraint it takes for them to not kill every man woman and child in Gaza.
Shockingly stupid.
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| 960 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 01:19
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not sure MITH, your position isnt shockingly arrogant.
Israel has had to fight for its very existence almost from day 1. It hasnt let up it hasnt stopped and it has been made publicly known to be the goal of more than a few who surround her. Yeah, it is BECAUSE of restraint, that Israel hasnt made an example of someone, like we ourselves did in Japan.
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| 961 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 04:37
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Israel is not fighting for their existence. They have enemies that want them eradicated but even collectively, they don't possess the military strength to realize that goal.
They are swatting at flies, not fighting for their existence.
There are more formidable powers in the region, like Pakistan and possibly Iran, which could challenge Israel's existence. And they perhaps wouldn't mind her eradication. But they lack the motivation to attack her directly, which would mean dragging the US into a war with them.
So what Tree calls restraint (assuming he is correct and the morality of ethnic cleansing isn't something that should preclude the prospect on Israel's part) is actually simple self preservation.
It's a very foolish thing to set the bar so low that we are to praise them for not ethnically cleansing Gaza. To say so means you hold them to the same standard as Hamas. I think Israel does some really terrible things to the Palestinian people, but I don't think they are the kind of monster that would have to summon "incredible restraint" in order to not exterminate a society of 2 million people. At least I hope not.
They are not fighting for their lives. Not in some time now.
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| 962 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 04:44
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And for the record, if you think we bombed Japan "to make an example" of them, you should really revisit your WW2 history.
We did it to end the war early and save the number of allied lives it would have taken to see it through via conventional means. And Truman regretted it the next day when he realized the devastation he caused was far greater than he'd been told would occur.
And most importantly, we destroyed 2 cities in Japan after residents were given ample warning to flee.
Tree wants to turn all of Gaza "into a parking lot". A month warning wouldn't help those people because Israel has sealed off all exits out of Gaza.
We can do an awful lot better than not killing 2 million people as a standard for praiseworthy.
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| 963 | Khahan
ID: 5977299
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 10:16
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MITH - you do understand that Hamas does more than threatens Israel. Any chance hamas they will murder Israeli citizens and believe they are doing their god's will by doing so. Any chance will they get they will lob any # of rockets at Israel hoping 1 gets thru the Iron Dome.
If they were left alone I believe they would simply amass forces and take over Israel the way ISIS did with Iraq. This isn't some school yard fight where some mean spirited first grader is trying to pick a fist fight with a 5th grader three times his size.
No matter the disparity between size of missiles and capability, both sides have the capability to kill the other.
So here is a question for you:
Why should Israel sit back and lessen their own capabilities of defense when they are dealing with somebody who wants to eradicate them and has the means to do so? Even if those means are not instantaneous like a nuke. They have the means by slower, more drawn out methods. So why should Israel do less than the most they are capable of to defend themselves and their citizens?
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| 964 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 14:29
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Khahan
If they were left alone I believe they would simply amass forces and take over Israel the way ISIS did with Iraq.
How exactly would these forces amass? Hamas doesn't have anything like the opportunity that Isis did. They were not regarded as a threat until they exposed the Iraqi army's incredibly weak morale. The Iraqi soldiers fled and left state of the art American weapons and equipment for Isis to commandeer. There is no comparable weakness with the IDF.
No matter the disparity between size of missiles and capability, both sides have the capability to kill the other.
If by "they" you mean Gaza and Israel proper, this is wholly untrue. Israel has the capability to "kill" Gaza. All of it.
Gaza has the ability to exhaust their entire supply of thousands of rockets and kill a few dozen Israelis.
The "question for you" portion of your post is bizarre.
Why should Israel sit back and lessen their own capabilities of defense when they are dealing with somebody who wants to eradicate them and has the means to do so?
I have never said that Israel should "lesson their own capabilities". I have no idea where you got that. And no, they do not have the means to eradicate Israel. Hamas threw everything they had at Israel this summer and the resulting casualties didn't even come close to keeping up with the birth rate. I would love to have this "slow method" of "eradication" explained to me.
I mean if they are so capable, why haven't they done it? All I've seen is Israel finding more and more effective ways of preventing casualties from Qassam rockets as the Jewish population has continually grown. Many Israelis even mock the rockets by making sculptures of Minorahs and other things from the unexploded portions of them.
So why should Israel do less than the most they are capable of to defend themselves and their citizens?
For the same reason that the US didn't turn The Sunni Triangle "into a parking lot" and build a bunh of American settlements on the newly cleared land. Because even in war (and this isn't really a war, it's an insurgent uprising in an occupied and oppressed territory) there needs to be morality.
Some people think stopping short of ethnic cleansing is the threshold of morality. If that's all it takes than Hamas has nothing to worry about on the morality front.
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| 965 | Khahan
ID: 237452913
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 14:45
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I'll take your word that you don't think Israel should scale back their capabilities to defend themselves but I'll be honest - you are sending very mixed messages on this front. Maybe the prior discussion you started was just you playing devil's advocate and I'm reading too much into it?
As for the rest we may have to agree to disagree. I don't see how somebody can look at a side firing missiles and think that side doesn't have the capability to kill their foe. Gaza absolutely has the capability to kill people in Israel. They absolutely have the capability to destroy Israel as a nation. They may not have the most effective capabilities. They may not have the capabilities to do it quickly. But they have those capabilities. Just like a person with a knife has the capabilities to kill another person and so does a person with a gun.
A gun may be much more effective. You can use a gun from a distance. You can use a gun w/ little force. You can use a gun w/ little direct exposure to yourself. But that doesn't make a knife any less deadly.
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| 966 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 16:54
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As far as I'm aware my Israel-related opinions stated here have been very consistent for quite a few years.
If you mean their military capability, which is what I assume you're talking about, you'll have to offer a quote in which I've suggested that Israel scale back. I have noted (somewhere in this forum, maybe in the Pakistan discussion) that they are in violation of the UN anti proliferation treaty.
I've never suggested they reduce their nuclear arsenal, which obviously provides their most dangerous and powerful and effective defense capability.
Their second most effective tool is the Iron Dome, which I believe Israel should be praised for. So I wouldn't have them scale that back either.
If you're referring to the blockade, (which admittedly didn't occur to me) I fail to see how allowing food and medicine in and trade exports out compromises Israel's ability to defend itself.
What I believe Israel should do is modify their military policy to be more considerate of residents. I will never understand why necessary to take out the four closest buildings along with the one they know targets are in.
I've conceded that such a modification would likely result in a few more of their thousands of targets to slip through their fingers, which might result in a handful more Israeli casualties. The argument is that this sacrifice is worth the number of Palestinian noncombatants who would be saved, since it would be exponentially greater than the small number of likely additional Israeli casualties.
Look at the point from the other direction. As Tree is fond of pointing out, Israel is capable of even far greater damage than the hell she rained on the millions of people trapped in Gaza this summer. She could presumably have dropped far more bombs and taken out 4 or 5 times as many noncombatants, resulting in far fewer of her own citizens facing danger from Rocket fire.
But they stop short of dropping daisy cutters over downtown Gaza City because someone calculated that such overkill isn't worth the handful of Israeli lives such measures might save. Why is it so unreasonable for me to think that bar isn't quite high enough? I feel like some people here think I should be impressed that there is a bar at all.
And the argument that is immune from criticism because Hamas has no bar is negated by two counter points:
1. Hamas' severely limited military capabilities set the bar for them. The notion that the fight against Hamas is a fight for existence is a mindless victim-playing mantra that I'm shocked anyone at this forum could possibly convince themselves of (with one exception).
2. It is absolutely absurd to judge any nation's military compassion by comparing it to Hamas. Yes of course I hold Israel to a higher standard than Hamas. Israel is a first world society with a highly sophisticated military with world class equipment and systems and a functioning representative democratic government. It's the same reason I hold a cop to a higher standard than a murderer. And like the cop, part of my salary helps fund the execution of Israeli military policy, so I have a personal stake in what they do.
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| 967 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 17:11
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Also, I've asked you to explain how Hamas threatens Israel's existence. Yes they have trained fighters, guns and rockets and are willing to use them. Israel has the IDF, the Iron Dome, the blockade and billions of dollars per year in military aid - all of which they have also proven they are willing to use.
Again, please explain to me how this slow method of Israeli eradication works. Because the 'capability' to kill a few or even a lot of civilians seems like an awfully be chasm away from the capability to end the country's existence.
You've got a bridge that big you say? Well tell me about it.
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| 968 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 17:17
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I mean, if Israel were to cast off 95% of her military and defense systems, then I'd agree that a fight with Hamas would be a fight for her existence. But in the real world the notion is abject nonsense.
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| 969 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 17:39
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A few corrections for post 966:
...such a modification would likely result in a few more targets to slip through their fingers (out of the many thousands Israel says they destroyed) which might result in a handful more Israeli casualties.
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And the argument that Israel is immune from criticism because Hamas has no bar...
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...the 'capability' to kill a few or even a lot of civilians seems like an awfully big chasm away from the capability to end the country's existence.
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| 970 | Tree
ID: 357242918
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 19:35
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They are not fighting for their lives. Not in some time now.
among the most ignorant things you have ever posted on these boards.
to think that Israeli lives aren't at risk on a daily basis is to almost disqualify you from talking sensibly about Israel and what is going on there.
Tree wants to turn all of Gaza "into a parking lot".
once again, you're putting words in people's mouths. at no point did i ever say i wanted such a thing, and it's childish, absurd, and completely dishonest to make such a statement.
ultimately, it sounds to me like you think Israel and Jews should give up, allow people to lie about the, and then die.
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| 971 | Khahan
ID: 16341313
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 20:09
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967 and 968. Just because Israel has a gun doesn't make Hamas' knife any less deadly.
And just because that 1st grader named Hamas has foolishly attempted to attack that 6th grader named Israel doesn't put Israel at any less risk from Hamas' knife. Hamas is not without teeth.
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| 972 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 20:30
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I'm sorry but 971 doesn't make any sense at all to me. How does a knife exterminate a people.
Why do I have to keep asking, exactly how does this slow method of Isaeli eradication play out?
Can anyone explain this? Exactly how Israel is "fighting for her existence"? Not for a few lives, you guys keep saying her EXISTANCE is as stake? How? Is it a secret?
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| 973 | Tree
ID: 357242918
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 20:33
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How does a knife exterminate a people.
this can't be a serious question.
Exactly how Israel is "fighting for her existence"? Not for a few lives, you guys keep saying her EXISTANCE is as stake?
this also can't be a serious question.
she's spent the last 65 years - her entire existence - surrounded by nations or people who have tried to eliminate and destroy her.
if they were to stop fighting for survival, well, then they wouldn't survive.
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| 974 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 20:51
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I'm talking about Hamas. Israel isn't fighting Egypt or Jordan or even Lebanon right now. She has spent the summer fighting Hamas in Gaza. Her tactics in Gaza are supposedly justified by this notion that she is fighting for her existence.
Don't get cute by taking me out of context. You know I'm not saying that no Israeli lives are at stake, Tree. You know exactly what I mean. So please, what threat does Hamas pose to her existence? If it's a stupid question then it should be very easy to answer.
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| 975 | Tree
ID: 357242918
Fri, Aug 29, 2014, 21:42
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if Hamas has the ability to kill one Israeli, they have the ability to kill many.
killing ONE is inexcusable. Israeli ignoring that killing, is equally as inexcusable.
Don't get cute by taking me out of context.
unlike you, i don't need to invent words by someone else to make my point. i only used your own words.
the fact that Israeli deaths apparently mean very little to you - so little, in fact, that Israel should just let them happen, does not mean that Israel's existence is not at stake.
perhaps if more people had stopped the Nazis early on, we wouldn't have lost more than ten million people.
this is why Hamas threatens Israel's existence.
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| 976 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 00:52
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Well, gents what is very important to remember for Israel is that her best and perhaps only ally of 70 years is tired of all the pushback we've received due to Israel's inability to make peace with its neighbors.
It would have been much smarter of us to give the Jews a new homeland in Montana back in 1948, than to try to carve them out a spot in the heart of the Muslim world.
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| 977 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 04:45
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Ain't that the truth.
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| 978 | Mith
ID: 231150292
Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 08:57
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Still waiting for an explanation for how the end of Israel will play out if Israel tries to kill fewer innocent people in her responses to ineffective rocket attacks.
Anyone? I mean, I have literally been begging.
No?
Tree
unlike you, i don't need to invent words by someone else to make my point. i only used your own words.
Yes tree, we all misquote each other from time to time. It's an honest mistake. You've done it plenty of times, too. You'll note that I don't use your misquotes/mischaracterizations as a skirt to hide behind rather than respond to honest questions.
And yes you used my words - in this case a single sloppily written sentence that is at odds with everything else I wrote on the topic.
So in case you really think I have to clear up, yes of course individual Israelis are in danger of attacks from Hamas. Not like the danger that inner city residents face in tough neighborhoods in Chicago or the danger that we accept every time we merge onto a highway, for example of course.
So lets try to act like adults, shall we? I'll try to do a better job of not misquoting you or misrepresenting you and you can do the same. And when one of us does slip up, the other can continue to act like an adult and simply correct the error, rather than whine about "words in my mouth" in avoidance of the contextual intent. Sound fair?
Anyway, I guess (that phrase means I'm explaining the way I understand what you wrote) you would regard America's "war on terror" as a fight for America's very existence, yes? It seems logical since the conditions you cite to support the claim for Israel (ability to kill one American, ability to kill many Americans, and the Nazis weren't stopped early enough - whatever that means its true regardless of the topic).
Anyway, I don't agree that America is fighting for her existence. And of course it has nothing to do with how I regard American deaths, from terrorism or gang violence or car accidents. I just know that when we are discussing real circumstances and not pointless hypotheticals about what would happen if we disbanded our military, that Islamist or other terrorism isn't any kind of threat to the existence of the USA. Our nation is much stronger than that. Just like Israel is much stronger than Hamas.
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| 979 | Tree
ID: 357242918
Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 12:18
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Still waiting for an explanation for how the end of Israel will play out if Israel tries to kill fewer innocent people in her responses to ineffective rocket attacks.
israel already tries to kill fewer innocents. that you don't accept this reality is your own problem.
the other can continue to act like an adult and simply correct the error
well, except in your case, it's so frequent, i don't see it as an error, but rather an intentional attempt at disinformation.
Anyway, I guess (that phrase means I'm explaining the way I understand what you wrote) you would regard America's "war on terror" as a fight for America's very existence, yes?
The United States has had less foreign attacks on her soil in 235 years than Israel has in 235 days. heck, possibly even 235 hours.
you can't compare the two.
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| 980 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Sat, Aug 30, 2014, 13:03
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israel already tries to kill fewer innocents. that you don't accept this reality is your own problem.
It's not that I don't accept this reality, in fact this is one of those examples of you misrepresenting me. So allow me to clear up by pointing you to post 966:
What I believe Israel should do is modify their military policy to be more considerate of residents.-
It's not that I deny that they make some effort to limit civilian casualties, it's that I simply think they aren't doing enough.
More from the same post:
But they stop short of dropping daisy cutters over downtown Gaza City because someone calculated that such overkill isn't worth the handful of Israeli lives such measures might save. Why is it so unreasonable for me to think that bar isn't quite high enough? I feel like some people here think I should be impressed that there is a bar at all.
I feel like I have made this case many times over this summer, but rather than accuse you of deliberately misrepresenting me and use that as an excuse to avoid difficult questions, I'll assume that I have set the record straight on that and move on to your next statement, and expecting you to not make the error again.
The United States has had less foreign attacks on her soil in 235 years than Israel has in 235 days. heck, possibly even 235 hours.
Ok, but that wasn't part of your reasoning when I asked. So the reasons are: 1. Hamas can kill an individual. 2. Hamas can kill many individuals. 3. Hitler wasn't stopped early enough (?) and 4. They have been frequently attacked.
I hope those aren't too different from your intention. That's how I read them.
Honestly, I still don't see how those factors equate to a threat against Israel's existence in today's real world. I am legitimately trying to get to the bottom of this notion. I've been ridiculed here for calling it nonsense and I've seen others (elsewhere) accused of antisemitism for the same opinion.
So please help someone who is asking for it and explain exactly how - in the conditions of the real world and not some hypothetical situation - Israel's existence might end at the hands of Hamas.
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| 981 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 12:51
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We already have many, calling for the end of US support, many others in the UK calling for an end to their Israeli support, others in Germany, calling for an end to their support. That seems a pretty damn string start, to the long process of ending a nation through means other than outright conquest.
That Israel is losing the PR war, I dont think is in doubt at all. That this is in accordance with HAMAS intent, may be getting overlooked by a rather significant number of people.
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| 982 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 15:27
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Thank you Sarge!
And a very interesting point that I had not considered.
Sure it aligns with Hanas' intentions but how avoidable is it? After all, it is also interesting that refusing to 'raise the morality bar' with regard to their Palestinian policy might be the very thing that you say could potentially lead to Israel's extinction.
For the record I don't know that Israel receives much foreign aid from Europe but they are obviously crucial trading partners. And there is a notable boycott Israel movement that is still in the early stages but has at least enough support and momentum to have the Israeli press' attention.
Whether Israel can remain militarily dominant in the region through a long standing trade boycott is also an interesting question. I suspect they could, largely because American defense aid isn't going anywhere. No nationally electable American politician would rethink defense aid to Israel.
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| 983 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Sun, Aug 31, 2014, 15:49
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What America thinks.
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| 984 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Thu, Sep 04, 2014, 10:57
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What the world thinks about Israel's latest land grab in the West Bank.
And let's get one thing clear, the current Israeli government, whatever they say out of the other sides of their mouths, will never allow the Palestinian people any kind of autonomy in the West Bank. Every time they have told them or their own people or the rest of the world that they want a two-state solution, they have lied through their teeth.
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| 985 | Khahan
ID: 3189179
Wed, Sep 17, 2014, 10:10
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3 weeks later Hamas reportedly breaks the cease fire.
Hmm, see post 947.
In all fairness though, Hamas is denying this shot fired. So far its only Israel claiming it happened. Could be nothing. Could be what Israel claims. Could be something in between.
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| 986 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Thu, Sep 18, 2014, 11:49
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So, I didnt do the math, did I win by taking the Under?
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| 987 | Khahan
ID: 398121813
Thu, Sep 18, 2014, 14:12
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It was technically 3 weeks and 1 day, so no win for Bean.
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| 989 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Sat, Jan 31, 2015, 17:53
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450 New Settlement homes on the way
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| 990 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Wed, Mar 18, 2015, 10:37
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FWIW, i'm disappointed with the results of the recent election.
when things like "there will not be a Palestinian state on my watch" surges someone to victory, that's not a good thing.
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| 991 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Wed, Mar 18, 2015, 16:32
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Agreed. He's a wartime PM who will invent one to fit his strengths if he has to.
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| 992 | Boldwin
ID: 49250121
Wed, Mar 18, 2015, 18:16
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Any other nation would be required to renounce their pledge to drive their neighbors into the sea in order to be recognized as a legitimate state.
Since PA leaders will never honestly agree to that...they cannot have recognition as a state. Had they been willing to agree to that, they could have been recognized as a state 70 years ago.
Of course it would be great if they could agree to be civilized, but these people are very explicitly determined to...Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 176: Narrated by 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.'"
Sahih Bukhari Hadith Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177: Narrated by Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him." .And you can hold hands and sing kumbaya till the cows come home and this is not going to change their minds. Not if every last Israeli and American grew a soul patch and turned bright red liberal.
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| 993 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Wed, Mar 18, 2015, 21:55
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yes. you hate Arabs. we get it.
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| 994 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Wed, Mar 18, 2015, 22:38
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And he's "Christian."
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| 995 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Fri, Mar 20, 2015, 10:36
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I too regret the results of the Israeli election. Just as I regret those of our most recent mid-terms. The warmongers are winning, and it is our sons and daughters who will ultimately lose.
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| 996 | Boldwin
ID: 15242023
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 00:42
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What has hate got to do with it?
It is a simple rule of civilization.
You don't get recognized as a new state if you refuse to recognize your neighbor's right to exist.
I didn't make this rule.
How I feel about it has no bearing on it whatsoever.
The fact that you are happy to turn a blind eye and let them genocide the Jews out of existance because you are so golden-hearted, well intentioned and diversity loving doesn't matter either. Fortunately for Israel.
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| 997 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 01:11
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With the re-election of an obvious warmonger, it will be much more difficult to defend Israels actions. When as a neighbor go deliberately into your yard and take a dump, its sort of difficult to call you out for getting pissed off about it. Thats sort of where Israel has put herself.
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| 998 | Boldwin
ID: 15242023
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 01:56
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There isn't anything Israel or any of it's leaders have done which is as egregious as the palestinian's implacable unchangable demand that all Jews die.
AND any palestinian leader who ever honestly renounced violence against Israel would be assassinated within the week by his own people.
The 'peace process' between them is as pointless as any human activity ever conceived.
Can...not...work, will...not...work...ever. Not until kingdom come.
Anyone who believes otherwise is a fool. Or worse.
There is no such thing on the side of the palestinians. They are religiously required to kill the jews to bring in the 12th imam, establish the world-wide caliphate, etc.
Anyone here believe they can secularize the palestinians? We'd all love to hear your plan.
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| 999 | Boldwin
ID: 15242023
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 01:59
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The biggest laugh is to suggest the hostilities originate from Israeli warmongering. What BS that is.
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| 1000 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 10:23
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they don't.
but Bibi isn't doing one damned thing by his rhetoric or actions.
honestly, if you're going to say "no Palestinian state under my watch," at least be man enough to stick to your guns and not backpeddle as soon as you have the votes.
Bibi is a great WARTIME leader. but he's a $hitty leader in a time of peace, so he'll do what he can to create a war to cover his a$$.
honestly, i have two schools of thought here - either make peace, or make war, but stop the bull$hit.
scorch the earth, or plant the earth. i'd prefer planting, but if it doesn't work, stop pissing around.
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| 1001 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 10:53
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the palestinian's implacable unchangable demand that all Jews die
There's one way to take yourself out of a conversation. When did you find time to poll every Palestinian?
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| 1002 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 10:57
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as a point of order for myself, i believe that Palestinian leadership doesn't want Israel or Jews around.
but i believe most Palestinians would do anything for peace between the two factions, Israel, and the Palestinians.
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| 1003 | Boldwin
ID: 15242023
Sat, Mar 21, 2015, 14:42
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Yeah, there may be a few. Not relevant. If they exist it is impossible that they will be a factor.
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| 1004 | sarge33rd
ID: 390471112
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 02:14
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that Boldwin, is ominously similar to what Eisenhower said, of any politicians who sought to end unions, minimum wage and social security.
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| 1005 | Boldwin
ID: 2725228
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 09:05
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Yeah, that's the thing about creeping socialism. Almost impossible to roll back.
If only I could have opted out of social security and invested that money in a simple index fund instead. I'd be a retired millionaire right now...sipping margaritas on some Caribbean beach instead of going Galt.
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| 1006 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 09:26
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Have you actually done that math? Do you know what a guaranteed lifetime annuity costs? Do you know how much you personally have contributed to Social Security over your lifetime?
If you take care of yourself, it's a pretty good deal.
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| 1007 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 10:27
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<1005> Many of us could have done a better job with our social security tax (including the matching funds of our employers). However, there are many more people, who, given those funds, would squander them. One only has to look at the many people who have lost a small fortune with their investments during the many economic collapses to realize that not everyone is capable of proper investment strategies. Markets are zero sum games in a stagnant economy. For every winner there is a loser. An appeal to get all of the suckers into the game, so that they can be fleeced is not a smart formula for society to care for the elderly.
Most uninformed people, and most ARE uninformed, think that social security is designed to allow them to retire with no other source of income or a sizable nest egg. Informed people know that it is just a supplement, and save during their working years.
So many people have accessed their IRAs early and paid the taxes just to get their hands on their money. I have seen ignorant people cash in on their pensions during job changes too, its amazing how some people simply do not understand how to manage their wealth. Unfortunately too many of these future elderly Walmart greeters just dont get it. But at least they have social security to supplement their job at Walmart, and maybe entice their kids into taking them in.
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| 1008 | Boldwin
ID: 22230229
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 11:00
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bili
Yeah, I've done the math on that.
There is ZERO in the trust fund.
Thanks to liberals the country is bankrupt.
There will be no viable government to cover those promises.
I know privatized plans work.
And SPDR's have averaged 10% annual growth thru my lifetime. SS is ridiculous by comparison.
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| 1009 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Sun, Mar 22, 2015, 11:09
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You might want to look at the drain that disability claims have made on the fund. In communities where population outpaces opportunities, sleezy lawyering is a growth industry.
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