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0 Subject: House Votes to Block Aid for Saudi Arabia

Posted by: Mattinglyinthehall
- Leader [1629107] Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 10:53

My Way:
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Lawmakers cheered as the House of Representatives voted on Thursday to strip financial assistance for Saudi Arabia from a foreign aid bill because of criticism that the country has not been sufficiently cooperative in the U.S. war on terror.

The vote was a stinging defeat for the Bush Administration which had strongly opposed the measure saying it would "severely undermine" counterterrorism cooperation with Saudi Arabia and U.S. efforts for peace in the Middle East.

The House voted 217-191 to remove $25,000 in the $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill earmarked for Saudi Arabia.

The funds were designated for military training but approval would have triggered millions of dollars in discounts on hardware and other military training, lawmakers said.

"I don't want my taxpayer dollars going to the Saudis and I don't want anyone else's to," said Nevada Democratic Rep. Shelley Berkley.

Supporters of the measure also argued that with Saudi Arabia's massive wealth from ownership of one-fourth of the world's proven oil reserves, the kingdom should not need financial aid from the United States.

The Senate would also have to strip the Saudi aid from its version of the foreign assistance bill before it stands a chance of being enacted.

U.S.- Saudi ties were shaken by the fact that 15 of the 19 hijackers in the Sept. 11 attacks in 2001 were Saudi nationals and revelations that individual Saudis had financed al Qaeda, whose leader, Osama bin Laden, was born in the kingdom.

A study by the Council on Foreign Relations found recently that Saudi Arabia has stepped up its efforts to halt the flow of funds to militant groups, but said more needed to be done.

Arizona Republican Rep. Jim Kolbe, said the timing of the House measure "could not be worse." He acknowledged Saudi Arabia had not always been a model partner in the war on terror but said "we need all the friends and allies we can get."

1Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:00
Yikes! I think that last paragraph hits it.

In the War on Terror, no one has the perfect model by which allies should be judged. Is SA doing enough? Considering where they are and the internal divisions they face, plus the fact that they have long been an ally of the US in the region (who else there allows US airbases on their soil?) they don't deserve this slap in the face.

Supporters of the measure also argued that with Saudi Arabia's massive wealth from ownership of one-fourth of the world's proven oil reserves, the kingdom should not need financial aid from the United States.

I love this line! So let me get this straight: The Saudis should simply raise the price of their oil to the United States to make up the difference then?
2Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:23
This is a nation whose government, when addressing its people, espouses the claim that it is Zionists and not arabs who are responsible for 9/11. We shouldn't need our air bases there anymore and if its true that SA is dragging its feet in cracking down on militant funding then we shouldn't comprimise ourselves in fighting the War on Terror because of the price of oil.
3sarge33rd
      ID: 52613149
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:39
as much as I hated to see the $2/gal price recently on oil, we in the US have long been the beneficiaries of cheap fuel. Back in '76 in Germany with the Army, I pd $1/qt approx. (Sold by the litre which is pretty close to a qt.) I dont really want to see our gas prices go up, but I also dont want to provide financial aide to a nation whose fundamental teachings espouse terrorism.
4Dec
      ID: 376461610
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:46
The House voted 217-191 to remove $25,000 in the $19.4 billion 2005 foreign aid bill earmarked for Saudi Arabia.

Is there a typo here, 25K doesn't seem to me like a big break for taxpayers.
5sarge33rd
      ID: 52613149
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:48
I think the real break is the loss of discounts on military hardware that SA will be buying from us dec.
6yankeeh8tr
      ID: 14618169
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 11:57
You've got to read the next lin, dec...The funds were designated for military training but approval would have triggered millions of dollars in discounts on hardware and other military training...

I have mixed emotions about this. While I agree that we can't really afford to alienate another friend at this point, my gut reaction to the Sauds is one of "with friends like these...".

I don't give a flying fig about what happens to oil prices as a result either - we're a spoiled lot, what with all the bonding with our inner lizards and all - mebbe some real, everyday, damn-now-I-can-feel-what-the-war-on-terrorism-is-all-about belt tightening is what we need. Because short of having some friends in Iraq that I'm worried for, my life hasn't changed one iota. And if this is really the brobdingnagian (YES! I got to use "brobdingnagian" in a sentence!) struggle for the souls of free men and future of the independent world that W and Co make it out to be, then we could do with a slightly more spartan attitude at home.
7Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:01
Agree on the spartan attitude (speaking of which, I watched The Spartan the other day on DVD--better than I thought it would be).

Sad to say, but SA is the best friend we have in the area, and has been for decades. Obviously we don't agree with all they espouse, but they've always listened to us and we've been at the same table for some times.

We're not looking for another Canada in the region. In a touchy area of the world, slapping the face of our best and longest Arab ally, even if they aren't as perfect as we are, is very short-sighted.
8Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:08
Here the liberals and neoconservatives have an issue where they can band together against the realists.

I agree with pd. Not only is SA are best (Arab/Moslem) friend in the area, any alternative regime that has a chance of taking power there would be far worse for American interests. While they need to alter their behaviour re terrorism, the Administration is best positioned to judge what combination of carrot and stick is most effective.

Look forward to seeing Kerry's posiyion on this. A good test of whether he's to be taken seriously on foreign policy or not.

Toral
9Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:20
Toral

Not only is SA are best (Arab/Moslem) friend in the area, any alternative regime that has a chance of taking power there would be far worse for American interests.

Who's talking about regime change? I just think it's time we exert some pressure to try to keep them honest.

While they need to alter their behaviour re terrorism, the Administration is best positioned to judge what combination of carrot and stick is most effective.

Would you say that the Administration has yet applied any effective combination of carrot and stick to get them to alter their behavior?
10Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:25
Evidently so. From your linked story, A study by the Council on Foreign Relations found recently that Saudi Arabia has stepped up its efforts to halt the flow of funds to militant groups...

Toral
11Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:32
I don't see how that qualifies as enough or not. The end of the sentence, which you omitted tells us that the same council says more needs to be done.
12Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:34
We all know that more needs to be done. We don't get people to do that but summarily taking away aid.

As a Dem, I believe the best way to negotiation with people is by ensuring we're at the same table with them.

That all said, it's important to prioritize: Is getting them to change more important than their continued support in the region?
13biliruben
      ID: 441182916
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:38
What are we, frat boys (our leadership not withstanding)? We shouldn't have to buy our friends. If a friend is down on his luck, I'll toss him a few bucks, but SA, as far as I know, ain't down on their luck.

Our relationship should be (and in my opinion is) mutually beneficial.

I don't think we should be insulting them, but I don't really see any reason to be bribing them either. Money is not how you make a true ally that sticks with you, it's shared goals and values and a mutual reliance. If that doesn't exist, when push comes to shove they aren't going to be in our court no matter how much money you pay them.
14Toral
      Sustainer
      ID: 2111201313
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 12:50
We don't have shared goals and values with any of the Arab regimes, so we have to settle for a recognized ability to act on shared interests where they exist.

Saudi Arabia displays this. I happen to be reading Kissinger's autobiography, where he notes that Saudi Arabia was the only Arab nation assisting the U.S. in facilitating an Egypt-Israel agreement in the mid-70s (not the big one, the earlier one in 1975).

Toral
15Perm Dude
      ID: 2343587
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:01
Our relationship should be (and in my opinion is) mutually beneficial.

I think we can all agree with that. It's tough to see how we ourselves benefit when, at the most critical moment of our needed them, we slap them around a bit.

We simply cannot overstate the ease with which SA can become the next Iran or even Syria.
16Mattinglyinthehall
      Leader
      ID: 1629107
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:21
Well I agree with you there, PD, but I don't believe its a bad thing that they are subject to some recourse resulting from our internal grumblings about their shortcomings in the WoT.

This is about a reletively small provision in a foreign aid bill. We aren't (and I'm not)advocating anything so drastic as sanctions or severing ties.
17sarge33rd
      ID: 20661612
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:24
I see this as more of a "Do we have your attention yet?", sort of gesture on the part of Congress.
18Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:27
Doing business with SA has caused a lot of the problems we fear from the bin Ladens of her world. One of bin Ladens biggest beefs with us is that we're in cahoots with the Saudi royal family. He's a lot more worked up about that than he about the Palestinians or Iraq, for instance.

F*&ck the Sauds. We need to stop doing business the evil and corrupt regimes of the world. I say that, I believe, as a realist and not a romantic. The underclasses of these countries, resent us, above all else, when they see us cooperating with their oppressors.
19yankeeh8tr
      ID: 14618169
      Fri, Jul 16, 2004, 13:40
It is a noble and romantic sentiment that I totally can agree with mbj, but it's hardly realistic.

Ceasing business (and that, as opposed to diplomacy, is the perfect word for it) with "the evil and corrupt regimes" of the world will never happen as long as there's a buck to be made by an American corporation that keeps a post office box in the Bahamas as it's "home office".
20Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 10:09
The State Department said Wednesday that Saudi Arabia has engaged in "particularly severe violations" of religious freedom and for the first time included the kingdom, a key U.S. ally, on a list of countries that could be subject to sanctions.

A department report assessing the state of religious freedom worldwide said that in Saudi Arabia, freedom of religion does not exist and is not recognized or protected under the country's laws.

The report also said that those who do not adhere to the officially sanctioned strain of Islam practiced in Saudi Arabia can face "severe repercussions" at the hands of the religious police.

Wednesday's announcement was a departure from the Bush administration's practice of avoiding direct criticism of Saudi Arabia -- a key ally in the war on terrorism, a strong backer of U.S. policies in Iraq and a major oil supplier.
=========

Joining Saudi Arabia for the first time on the so-called "CPC list" were Eritrea and Vietnam. Countries redesignated as CPC countries were Burma, China, Iran, North Korea and Sudan.
=========

Ambassador John V. Hanford, head of the State Department's religious freedom office, told a news conference that Saudi Arabia was designated a CPC country despite forward movement over the past year. He cited statements by Saudi ruler Crown Prince Abdullah in support of tolerance and moderation and said numerous Saudi text books have been revised to delete inflammatory references to religious beliefs outside those officially approved.

"But problems exist that push them over the line," Hanford said.

The U.S. Commission on International Freedom, an independent group that receives government funding and offers advice to the State Department, recommended last February that Saudi Arabia be declared a CPC country.

Such a designation does not necessarily require punitive measures but does mandate that the secretary of state engage the offending country on what steps it may take to increase religious tolerance.
=========

Bansal said the commission's stand was based not only on violations of religious freedom within Saudi Arabia's own borders "but also its propagation and export of an ideology of religious hate and intolerance throughout the world."

21Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 10:29
State Dept Report on International Religious Freedom
22Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:20
Wednesday's anoouncement was a departure from the Bush adminstration's practice of avoiding direct criticism of Saudi Arabia...

Well, actually it'd more accurate to say it's a departure of the State Department of the past 30 years or more of cow-towing to SA. Now we're getting somewhere.

This is really good news, a lot more inportant than it seems; and can't help but speculate that we wouldn't be doing this if it weren't for the removal of our large troop bases in SA after the Iraq War.
23hoops boy
      ID: 537423112
      Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:48
Couple of quick notes... first a big part of bin ladens beef with u.s. is that we keep pushing our religious beliefs on "his people". Now I am sure most folks here would claim we would never do that, but by pushing relgious freedom on them, we are doing that. second, someone point out the regime in saudi arabia that is going to replace the sauds and be friendly to us than the current crop, cause last i checked there wasn't one. sure a lot of people don't like the sauds, but thats because a lot of people want to _be_ the sauds...
24Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 2824911
      Thu, Sep 16, 2004, 11:53
hoops boy

1. It's startling to me that you are concerned with bin Laden's beef with us. That we had military bases on holy land in SA is an issue that most of the Muslim world has with us. I couldn't care any less what OBL's specific issues are.

2. No one is suggesting that we replace the current regime in SA. Indeed, they have been important allies, even if they are lacking as such in some respects.
25Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 20:08
Saudi Arabia

Five years ago, the tough Glaswegian was earning his living working in a hospital in Saudi Arabia as an anaesthetic technician, putt-ing in canulas, checking doses and weighing patients before they had operations. He and his Thai wife had just had a baby. He was happy and prosperous. Then, on December 17 2000, he was kidnapped by Saudi Arabian police as he got out of his car to walk into the hospital. Handcuffed and thrown into a police van, he was taken to an interrogation room in a prison in Riyadh. At that point, his nightmare began in earnest.

"Two men came into the room," he remembers. "They were Captain Ibrahim al-Dali, who introduced himself as an officer from Saudi Arabian intelligence, and Lieutenant Khalid al-Sabah, the interpreter. Ibrahim was short - hardly over 5ft 5in - but very strong. Khalid was tall and had rotting teeth. They told me I had to confess or they would do things to me that would make me go mad.

"I was totally confused. I had no idea of what I was supposed to confess to. I tried to ask them. Their response was to start hitting me with a pick-axe handle. They beat me all over my body. They brought in a huge 22 stone Saudi to sit on me while they beat the soles of my feet. They forced a metal rod between my knees and hoisted me upside-down, and beat me on my exposed buttocks. It was excruciating."

Mr Mitchell's two torturers eventually told him they wanted him to confess to planting a bomb that had killed another Briton named Christopher Rodway. "They said my wife and son were involved too. It sounded like a joke: my son was a year old." The two interrogators were in deadly earnest. "They kept on hitting me. The only time they broke off was when they went to pray."

That night, covered in blood and bruises, Mr Mitchell was chained standing up to a steel door in a room 5ft by 8ft. Bright lights burnt in his face throughout the night. The moment he looked as though he had fallen asleep, a guard came in and prodded him or hit with a stick to wake him up. And next day, Ibrahim and Khalid were there again, ready with their pickaxe handles.

After three days of torture, Ibrahim and Khalid summoned a doctor to examine Mr Mitchell. The doctor took his blood pressure. It was dangerously high. "Try to relax more," the doctor suggested helpfully to Mr Mitchell. When Mr Mitchell protested that he was being tortured, the doctor calmly replied: "They all say that. You'll just have to cope the best you can." And the moment the doctor left, the torture began again.

Ibrahim then told him that they were going to arrest his wife and son. "We will torture them. When you hear their screams, you will know that they are suffering because you haven't told us the truth."

That threat was enough to break Mr Mitchell. "I was starting to hallucinate because of the sleep deprivation. But I knew I couldn't let them harm my wife and child. I would have done anything to avoid that. I was very frightened for my son and for my wife. Ibrahim said that because she wasn't British, it was even easier for them to make her disappear."

Mr Mitchell's torturers wanted him to sign a confession which implicated Simon MacDonald, an official in the British embassy (he is now the British ambassador in Israel). "They had his picture," Mr Mitchell remembers. "They wanted me to say he had ordered the bombing and that I was working for MI6. It was all absolutely crazy. I invented some names of people I said had ordered me to do the bombing. They discovered the names were invented the next day and beat me extra hard as a result."

Mr Mitchell signed a preposterous confession in which he claimed to have detonated the bomb that killed Christopher Rodway while he was driving his car. "That was easily disprovable. I had receipts which proved that my car was being repaired when I was supposed to have detonated the bomb. The Saudis knew we were innocent from the start," he insists. "I had friends in the police force who told me that they knew the bomb had been planted by Islamic extremists, probably al-Qaeda."

Dr Bill Sampson, another Briton, was arrested on the same day as Mr Mitchell. Raf Schyvens, a Belgian nurse who knew Mr Mitchell, had been arrested and tortured several days earlier. Mr Schyvens had named Mr Mitchell and Dr Sampson as co-conspirators in his nonexistent bomb plot. "I don't blame Raf for that," says Mr Mitchell. "Everyone has their breaking point." Why the Saudi Arabians wanted to frame Mr Mitchell and Dr Sampson remains a mystery. Prince Naif, the Saudi Arabian government's intelligence chief, was determined to blame Westerners for the bomb: he simply refused to accept that Islamic militants were responsible. That Mr Mitchell and Dr Sampson were chosen as culprits may have been just bad luck.

"It was odd," says Mr Mitchell, "because I had assisted anaesthetists twice when Prince Naif was being operated on. I had had him prone on the operating table twice. He had even given me a gold watch as a present for my work. But I was tortured because of the orders of that man."

After he made his confession, Mr Mitchell was forced to go on television with Dr Sampson and Les Walker, another Briton, and repeat it. He thought the torture would then stop. It didn't. "They kept coming to beat me. They would do it for no reason at all. 'What do you want me to say?' I would ask them. 'What questions do want me to answer?' They would reply, 'There are no questions! We just want to beat you.' They enjoyed it. These men were savages."

There was one occasion when they made him kneel down and told him they were going to execute him. He felt a sudden blow to his neck, passed out - and awoke a few minutes later, covered in his own excrement. Ibrahim was laughing at him.

After four months of violence, Ibrahim and Khalid noticed a sudden deterioration in Mr Mitchell's condition. "I kept passing out for no apparent reason," he remembers. They sent for a doctor, who examined him and sent him to the hospital. The stress of the beatings and sleep deprivation had given him a potentially lethal heart condition. "They gave me beta-blockers as medication. The beatings stopped after that."

He was then placed in alone in a tiny cell with no windows. He would remain there for 15 months. "I wanted to die. I thought I was going to die anyway: I was convinced that the only way I would get out of that prison was in a coffin." Earlier, he had been taken out for a trial in a building on "Chop-Chop Square", the notorious location of Riyadh's public beheadings. The trial lasted 10 minutes. The chief prosecutor was Ibrahim, the man who had been his chief torturer. The judges asked Mr Mitchell if he had confessed to the bombing. He tried to explain that he had been tortured - they dismissed that, and announced his punishment: crucifixion, then partial beheading, after which his body would be left out to rot in public.

"In solitary confinement, I lost hope. The routine was soul-destroyingly monotonous. I would hear the call to prayer at 5am. A guard would shove bread and lentils in at about 7am. Then - nothing, nothing at all. Just silence. The tedium was all-enveloping. I was still on the beta-blockers for my heart condition. I split each one I was given and saved one of the halves. When I had what I thought would be enough to kill me, I swallowed the lot. But I survived. The only effect they had was to make me feel ill. I then thought, perhaps I'm not meant to die yet. Maybe God has something else in store."

Mr Mitchell was finally released more than two and a half years after he had been arrested. The bomb that blew up an American military base in 2003 seemed to have made it clear even to Prince Naif that al-Qaeda was responsible for the bombings in Saudi Arabia.

"The first I heard of it," Mr Mitchell, now 49, recalls, "was when the Saudi lawyers came in and said I would be released if I signed a letter to the King apologising for the bomb. I refused. We all did. They came back the next day and said I just had to sign a piece of paper thanking the King for his clemency. I signed that - and soon afterwards, I was on a plane home with the -others. It all happened so fast, I hardly had time to take it in."

Mr Mitchell now lives near Sowerby Bridge in Yorkshire, working part-time as an anaesthetic technician, filling in for those in permanent jobs when they are on leave. For now, he says, it is all that he can manage. He still feels nothing but hatred for the men who tortured him - "they will burn in hell for what they did to me" - but, as he writes in his new book, co-written with Mark Hollingsworth and published this week, he's also very bitter about the way he has been treated by the British government. "The fact that I and the other Britons who were picked up and tortured were released had very little to do with any activity from the British government. The Americans got Mike Sedlak [a US citizen also arrested for the bombing] released within two months. We had to wait nearly three years. Why? Simply because our government is terrified of upsetting the Saudis. They'd rather help British businessmen sign arms deals with the Saudis than stop British people being tortured by them."

What irks him most is that the Foreign Office still hasn't made a public statement in which they proclaim Mr Mitchell and the other men's total innocence and criticise the Saudi Arabians for framing and torturing them. "They won't do it," he says. "The Saudi version of what happened is blatantly ridiculous. Yet the Foreign Office won't contradict it."

Even worse, the British government is supporting the Saudi Arabian government in its appeal to the Law Lords to overturn the decision by three judges on the Court of Appeal to allow Mr Mitchell and the other tortured Britons to sue the Saudi Arabians for compensation. "Jack Straw says that it would be a violation of state sovereignty. He says that the principle that states can't be sued in national courts is one that it is in the interest of Britain to protect - so sorry, we're supporting the Saudis on this one. It's disgusting."




26Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Sun, May 15, 2005, 20:09


From a previous post F*&ck the Sauds. We need to stop doing business the evil and corrupt regimes of the world. I say that, I believe, as a realist and not a romantic. The underclasses of these countries, resent us, above all else, when they see us cooperating with their oppressors.
27nerveclinic
      ID: 39450150
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 03:30
I'm suprized no one mentioned Michael Moore.

Of course many of you didn't see the movie, but this vote is a vindication of one the most serious and pointed claims he made in Fahrenheit.
28Stuck in the 60s
      Dude
      ID: 274132811
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 08:25
It continues to amaze me that our government sees nothing hypocritical about doing business with a regime whose moral and ethical standards come direct from the 11th century.

PD: To say the Saudis are our best friends in the area is not to say we should do business with them. When we invest regimes like this with legitimacy, our efforts to promote human rights around the world become a standing joke. Just my .02.

Don
29Perm Dude
      ID: 17321143
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 09:51
Don, I don't think our country has the highest ethical standards themselves. My point wasn't to say we should prop up governments, etc as we did in the past to prevent them from falling to Communism. I'm saying that we have to be pragmatic.

In a perfect world we wouldn't be dealing with Saudi Arabia (or Pakistan, for that matter). But we don't live in such a place.
30Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 35241288
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 11:11
Interesting how varying opinions on this particular issue don't really fall in line with our traditional political conflicts.
31Motley Crue
      ID: 52450513
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 11:33
You know what amazes me? In light of what MBJ posted in 25, it seems hypocritical that there are violent demonstrations ongoing in the Arab world as we speak protesting desecration of the Koran at Gitmo by American soldiers.

So, framing, torturing, and killing prisoners is fine, just make sure the Koran stays off the toilet. Just wanted to make sure I got it straight. Beat the heels with bamboo, just remember to stop and pray 5 times a day.

Incidentally, 22 stones is around 300 pounds. But at least those secret police never desecrated any holy books.

Before the lambasting begins, remember that a book is an object that can easily be replaced. It's paper and ink.
32Tree
      ID: 314551619
      Mon, May 16, 2005, 22:20
Saudi pro-democracy activists jailed
33Timing
      ID: 424231723
      Thu, May 19, 2005, 18:59
Screw the Saudis. These are the slimeballs who are funding the spread of Wahabi extremism all over the region. They're even going into Africa now with this belligerent, hateful form of Islam. With friends like the Saudis, who the hell needs enemies.
34Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 08:40
While Al Gore slobbers all over himself apologizing to Saudis;


Saudi Arabia's top cleric demands cartoonists' heads on a platter

Maybe Gore could see if the Saudi's would go for this deal. if they'll stop fermenting such anti-Western hate over there, via their state supported hate machines..er....religious instituions, if they'll stop sending their citizens over here to crash planes into buildings and issuing fatwahs against freakin' picture drawers - then we'll stop enforcing sensible Visa and immigration laws against their citizens in our country who in are violation.

Or how 'bout this one - we'll treat Saudi criminals in our country as well as the Saudis treat Saudi criminals in Saudi Arabia? Sound good?

Gore apologizing to Saudis makes me want to vomit. The sense of entitlement of Saudi elite who come here never ceases to amaze me.
35Tree
      ID: 21151136
      Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 10:17
Gore apologizing to Saudis makes me want to vomit. The sense of entitlement of Saudi elite who come here never ceases to amaze me.

it's pretty annoying. but does Bush giving the Saudis a Lewinsky on a regular basis sicken you as much?
36soxzeitgeist@work
      ID: 361143289
      Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 12:51
For the sake of honesty (and also to head of any un-needed squabbling) we should probably stop pretending that there is any difference between how the GOP and Democrats give hand jobs to the House of Saud.

Except maybe right v. left.
37Myboyjack
      ID: 27651610
      Mon, Feb 13, 2006, 13:05
it's pretty annoying. but does Bush giving the Saudis a Lewinsky on a regular basis sicken you as much?

If you'dread this thread, you wouldn't have to ask.
38biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 10:08
If there's a country getting nuked up that would worry me more than NK or Iran, it would be Saudi Arabia.
39Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 10:51
bili,
I posted this article about Saudis and the bomb several years ago.

Saudi Arabia's nuclear gambit

Pakistan and Saudi Arabia are now reported to have arranged a deal by which Pakistan will provide Saudi Arabia with nuclear technology in return for cheap oil. The US-based Defense and Foreign Affairs Daily even goes so far as to say that Pakistan will station nuclear weapons on Saudi territory. These weapons will be fitted to a new generation of Chinese-supplied long-range missiles with a reach of 4,000 to 5,000 kilometers.
40biliruben
      ID: 531202411
      Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 12:14
Yeah. At least Iran has a reasonably sane middle class who like America until Bush screwed that up. Rotten at the top but healthy in the middle.

This is the opposite situation. I actually trust the bush-lovin' House of Saud much more than the people they "govern". That situation is a very dangerous, precarious one. An uprising could have nukes in the hands of Osama-wannabes in no time.
41Pancho Villa
      ID: 519522811
      Fri, Mar 31, 2006, 12:18
Well, at least Bush has decided it's a good idea to begin selling lethal weapons to another Muslim country of 200 million.

US lifts ban on sale of lethal arms to Indonesia
42Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Thu, Dec 07, 2006, 17:00
How do you say " f&C! You!" in Arabic?

Private Saudi citizens are giving millions of dollars to Sunni insurgents in Iraq and much of the money is used to buy weapons, including shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles, according to key Iraqi officials and others familiar with the flow of cash. ........
Two high-ranking Iraqi officials, speaking on condition of anonymity because of the issue's sensitivity, told the AP most of the Saudi money comes from private donations, called zaqat, collected for Islamic causes and charities.

Some Saudis appear to know the money is headed to Iraq's insurgents, but others merely give it to clerics who channel it to anti-coalition forces, the officials said.

In one recent case, an Iraqi official said $25 million in Saudi money went to a top Iraqi Sunni cleric and was used to buy weapons, including Strela, a Russian shoulder-fired anti-aircraft missile. The missiles were purchased from someone in Romania, apparently through the black market, he said.



43nerveclinic
      ID: 2111499
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 11:22

Saudi Policies:

It is against the law for a woman to drive.

It is against the law for a woman to walk unescorted by a male. If you're a visitor to Saudi Arabia, you are instructed to be with your husband or have a male sponsor or driver waiting for you or you won't be allowed into the country.

Women cannot vote in Saudi Arabia.

A Muslim here (Who doesn't drink) told me the story of a friend of his, he was traveling to another country but had to pass through Saudi Arabia airport on the way. He wasn't even going through immigration, he just had a short layover in the terminal. He had purchased a liter of alcohol at the duty free in the first country (Kenya)and was walking through the airport with it. He made no attempt to hide the bag since he didn't know he was doing anything wrong.

He was stopped, arrested, and sentenced to 2 years in jail. He served the two years.

I spoke with someone here in teh UAE who drove through Saudi Arabia (An Armenian) and at the border he was asked if he was a Christian. He said yes. They brought out Doberman pincher's to "sniff" him. They took the dash board off his new Mercedes "looking for drugs" and didn't put it back on.

Nice friends.

44nerveclinic
      ID: 2111499
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 11:38


Al-Qarni also said he mentioned clearly that such an issue should be brought up with the relevant religious institution. What he meant, he said, was that the senior Islamic scholars in the Kingdom had already issued fatwas (religious edicts) saying that women driving cars was sinful and not permissible in Islam. “My statements were misused. This is not the right way for those who search for the truth,” he said. He set out four statements as clarification:

“One: I do not see women driving cars in our country because of the consequences that would spring from it such as the spread of corruption, women uncovering their hair and faces, mingling between the sexes, men being alone with women and the destruction of the family and society in whole.

“Two: Sadd Al-Dharaie principle (the closing of doors which could lead to corruption or sinful actions) is one of the values in our religion. Women driving cars is a sinful thing. It is used by those who want to wage a war against purity and hijab.

“Three: One of the principles of our religion is protecting honor and moral values. Women driving cars would threaten these principles because of the dire consequences resulting from it.

“Four: Such public issues must be brought up with the certified religious institution who have the say in such matters as I have said many times before.”

45Toral
      ID: 52621719
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 11:50
Fewer car accidents on average then, in Saudi Arabia?

Toral
46Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 12:03
Probably fewer lost drivers as well.
47Perm Dude
      ID: 4711299
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 12:49
Well, fewer of those who say that they are lost, anyway.
49bibA
      Leader
      ID: 261028117
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 15:16
If none of them are driving, well, I guess there just must be more back seat drivers!
50Boxman
      ID: 211139621
      Sat, Dec 09, 2006, 18:06
Which might explain a lot of the anger in the Middle East.
51Metamucil
      ID: 301133149
      Thu, Dec 14, 2006, 10:53
The American government is the "champion" of democracy. They start wars supposedly to end dictatorships and implement democracies for people all over the world.

They are friends with the Saudi royal family......hmmmmmm.

Dictatorship/Oligarchy

Human rights abusers.

Women are treated as animals. They are not even allowed to drive.

The same group who buys children as young as 6 years old from Iran as sex slaves.

The same group who will not hire its own people to do most jobs because they feel Saudis are too good to do them while these same citizens are starving and unemployed.

One of the richest nations in the world, and yet their infrastructure is in the hands of foreign contractors (mostly american firms with ties to US government officials). Ugghh. Its disgusting.
52Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 11:01
Saudis to Bush: No reduction of oil prices. Bush to Saudis: OK, we'll give you nukes

Heh
53Perm Dude
      ID: 420241913
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 11:23
We can see why the Administration doesn't want to negotiate with terrorists or rogue states. There's no telling what Bush will give them!
54Mattinglyinthehall
      ID: 37838313
      Sat, May 17, 2008, 13:53
Flashback: NYT June 28th, 2000:
Gov. George W. Bush of Texas said today that if he was president, he would bring down gasoline prices through sheer force of personality, by creating enough political good will with oil-producing nations that they would increase their supply of crude.

''I would work with our friends in OPEC to convince them to open up the spigot, to increase the supply,'' Mr. Bush, the presumptive Republican candidate for president, told reporters here today. ''Use the capital that my administration will earn, with the Kuwaitis or the Saudis, and convince them to open up the spigot.''

Implicit in his comments was a criticism of the Clinton administration as failing to take advantage of the good will that the United States built with Kuwait and Saudi Arabia during the Persian Gulf war in 1991. Also implicit was that as the son of the president who built the coalition that drove the Iraqis out of Kuwait, Mr. Bush would be able to establish ties on a personal level that would persuade oil-producing nations that they owed the United States something in return.

''Ours is a nation that helped Kuwait and the Saudis, and you'd think we'd have the capital necessary to convince them to increase the crude supplies,'' he said.

Asked why the Clinton administration had not been able to use the power of personal persuasion, Mr. Bush said: ''The fundamental question is, 'Will I be a successful president when it comes to foreign policy?' ''

He went on to suggest, as he did in answer to other questions, that voters should simply trust him.

''I will be,'' he said in answer to his own question about whether he would be a successful president. ''But until I'm the president, it's going to be hard for me to verify that I think I'll be more effective.''
Hat tip: Hilzoy, who credits The Plank
55Myboyjack
      ID: 8216923
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 10:34
What do the Saudis want?



Basically what they want is a guarantee that they can continue their leveraged buy out of the USA.

And it would appear tha they have Congress fully on their side.
56nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 14:32


PD who else there allows US airbases on their soil?

Perhaps not air bases but we have troops stationed in Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Qatar, Eygpt, Kuwait and you may have heard...Iraq.

57nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 14:39


Most of what I've read in the business press and what I've heard from oil experts is that the Saudis are pretty much pumping to capacity right now. If they brought in a bunch of new drills they might be able to get more but it's not like they have spigots turned of.

I'm getting this information from news shows like Bloomberg.

Same comparison can be made with USA growing food for Ethanol while people in some parts of the world are starving or going hungry. How is it different?

Not sticking up for Saudi's in any other way. I wouldn't spit on them if they were on fire, not many people over here would either.

58Boxman
      ID: 571114225
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 16:29
Nerve: How is the US usage of ethanol for fuel instead of food being perceived overseas?
59nerveclinic
      ID: 5047110
      Sun, May 18, 2008, 16:40


Nerve: How is the US usage of ethanol for fuel instead of food being perceived overseas?

It's not as big a topic here as it is in the US business press.

Most economists I'm hearing (in USA) are saying it's one of the major factors along with growth of emerging markets for the increase in food prices.

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