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0 Subject: Isn't anybody against political correctness?

Posted by: Jazz Dreamers
- [34043123] Wed, Feb 02, 2005, 03:20

Remember the time when conservatives (rightly) stood up to prevent unpopular views from being silenced by outraged people who were offended by the idea expressed? And the term political correctness was coined, which suggested that you had to toe the line of mainstream thought in order to get acceptance on sensitive issues. One bad consequence was that honest and open discussion about race, for example, was severely damaged, as it became all too easy to label some a racist.

Society becomes stronger when we are willing to listen to ideas we don't like, especially ones (such as in the case of Professor Ward Churchill) are offensive and repulsive. It's fine to disagree with him; it's fine to tear his argument to pieces. It's not a good idea to silence him. While the essay that has ignited the controversy is inflammatory and poorly written, his ideas on 9/11 that he announced in a public statement today are not completely ridiculous. (Whereas what he says in his essay is so over the top that whatever points he might be trying to make are completely overshadowed by the offensive tone.) They are certainly not mainstream, and one could make a case that he's wrong on most of his points -- but his ideas are a contribution to academic debate. (I'd have no problem seeing him get canned if all of his writings were as poorly written as the essay that's been passed around. Presumably, that's not the case, and certainly nobody has offered any evidence to suggest that it is the case.)

Not that I expect that will matter. He will be quoted on the worst of what he wrote, and Republicans are going to make this a taxpayer issue. I'll be interested if the other faculty at Colorado or other institutions will stand up for Churchill. This is a really bad sign for the notion of academic freedom and the marketplace of ideas, something which I fear most Americans don't buy into anymore; and I also fear that some politicians would love to cash in on this. See Governor Bill Owens' statement below. (I suspect his opinion is much more popular than mine.)

February 1, 2005

Dear Friends:

We have come to a teaching moment at the University of Colorado. I applaud every person on the University of Colorado campus who has come to speak out against the indecent, insensitive and inappropriate comments and writings of Ward Churchill.

All decent people, whether Republican or Democrat, liberal or conservative, should denounce the views of Ward Churchill. Not only are his writings outrageous and insupportable, they are at odds with the facts of history. The thousands of innocent people - and innocent they were - who were murdered on September 11 were murdered by evil cowards. Indeed, if anyone could possibly be compared to the evildoers of Nazi Germany, it is the terrorists of the 21st century who have an equally repugnant disregard for innocent human life.

No one wants to infringe on Mr. Churchill's right to express himself. But we are not compelled to accept his pro-terrorist views at state taxpayer subsidy nor under the banner of the University of Colorado. Ward Churchill besmirches the University and the excellent teaching, writing and research of its faculty.

Ideas have consequences, and words have meaning. If there is one lesson that we hope that all Coloradans take from this sad case - and especially our students - it is that civility and appropriate conduct are important. Mr. Churchill's views are not simply anti-American. They are at odds with simple decency, and antagonistic to the beliefs and conduct of civilized people around the world. His views are far outside the mainstream of civil discourse and useful academic work.

His resignation as chairman of the Ethnic Studies Department was a good first step. We hope that he will follow this step by resigning his position on the faculty of the University of Colorado.

Sincerely,

Bill Owens


(Sorry, I'm a little too lazy to find some goods links. The essay is available online, as his public statement, the governor's statement, and I think a statement from CU. If I get a chance, I'll post this info tomorrow.)
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49Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:30
You've actually read this guy's stuff? How can I take any of your post seriously since you are in no position to make such assertions?

I'm willing to admit that you could be right about his academic writing since I haven't actually seen it, but I'm getting more and more curious what he actually says in his book. Not for the content but for the level of thought involved. Are you asserting that you are certain that his book is at the same pathetically low intellectual level of his essay? And if so, on what do you base this assertion?
50Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:32
I know how radical he was from the start.
51Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:37
While you are defending the right of this guy to say anything at all and be unfirable, there are real problems with free speech we are overlooking.

1. I agree that there are other issues with free speech, and this one may not be the most important.

2. I guess my posts are too long-winded and boring for you to actually read them fully. I did not say that he should be able to say anything at all, or that he should be unfirable. In fact, I stressed what reasonable grounds for firing him are, and why I suspect (given the evidence I have in front of me) that this case does not meet those grounds.
52Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 22:52
"It's amazing that the more we look at Ward Churchill, the more outrageous, treasonous statements we hear from Churchill," Owens said. "Churchill has clearly called for violence against the state, and no country is required to subsidize its own destruction. That's what we're doing with Ward Churchill."

In the question-and-answer interview, Churchill is asked what should happen to America. "I want the state gone: Transform the situation to U.S. out of North America. U.S. off the planet. Out of existence altogether."

Another question: What are the solutions to U.S. misdeeds? Churchill answers in the interview: "One of the things I've suggested is that it may be that more 9/11's are necessary."
53sarge33rd
      ID: 612919
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:00
and the difference between that and what was said amongst the British Colonists whom we now refer to as our Founding Fathers, would be......what exactly?

Point being, Freedom of Speech, means being free to voice opinions, thoughts and desires, which run contrary to what is widely viewed as desireable. Put an end to the voice of dissent, and you have just instituted a police state.
54Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:02
Am I really the only person here who sees the difference between free speech and government subsidized speech?
55Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 34043123
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:06
It's clear that Governor Owens doesn't understand the meaning of the word 'treasonous.'

Do you not understand the context of Churchill's statements? I don't agree with them, but to suggest that he is attempting to overthrow the government of the United States or to carry out terrorist attacks against America is absolutely ridiculous.

The grounds for firing Churchill are that his statements can be taken out of context to try to suggest that he is actively encouraging people to attack the United States and/or overthrow its government?
56Baldwin
      ID: 40022277
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:33
his statements can be taken out of context

No need, he repeats the same sorts of things ad nauseum. He is all about america's violent overthrow.

he is actively encouraging people

Generations of people. It's called 'teaching'.

he is actively encouraging people to attack the United States and/or overthrow its government?

Encouraging, justifying, easing their consciences, suggesting methods, all of the above.

57Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Feb 05, 2005, 23:37
When you're movement's lexicographer is Ann Coulter you'll have to be excused for the lack of few important meanings.

As for government subsidized speech I'd have to agree that Governor Owens would fall squarely into that camp.
58Baldwin
      ID: 5912468
      Sun, Feb 06, 2005, 09:32
One of the striking aspects of the Ward Churchill scandal is how public his views about America and terrorism were before all this happened. Churchill is the author of numerous books and articles expressing the view that America is a genocidal empire comparable to Nazi Germany, that terrorists are really freedom fighters and that the 9/11 atrocity was just deserts (these are of course also widespread views among American academics generally). In 1998 Churchill wrote a book called the Pacifism as Pathology which is essentially a case for violent revolution. So why did this all come out now?

The answer is that Churchill was invited as a second academic guest this spring by the professor in charge of a program at Hamilton College that brings lecturers and professors to campus. This professor is Nancy Rabinowitz (recently featured on FrontPage). Her first guest was Susan Rosenberg which caused a scandal and provoked reporters to examine Churchill's resume and turn up his notorious article. A further spur was a student at Hamilton whose father, killed in the terrorist attack of 9/11, was referred to by Churchill in the article as a "little Eichmann.") The scandal was caused by the fact that Rosenberg was a member of America's first political terrorist cult the Weather Underground, and was a convicted would be bomber (whom Clinton had pardoned). Rabinowitz invited Rosenberg because she is a political comrade. Rabinowitz is related by politics and marriage to Kathy Boudin and her network of Weatherman terrorists and supporters.

But what about Churchill? This puzzled me until I discovered that his 1998 book (The Pathology of Pacificism) is dedicated to Diana Oughton, herself a member of the Weatherman terrorist organization. Oughton inadvertently blew herself up making a bomb intended for a social dance at Fort Dix where it would have killed Army draftees and their dates. In other words, what has gone unnoticed in the media so far is that Nancy Rabinowitz's little academic program at Hamilton is actually a concerted effort to indoctrinate Hamilton students in the views of terrorist supporters. The only reason it is a scandal is that her timing is bad. Nancy, we're in the midst of a war on terror, in case you didn't notice. Actually, you probably did. Nice. - David Horowitz



59Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Tue, Feb 08, 2005, 11:03
Ward Churchill: Academic Fraud

Not to pile on but:


To the extent that Churchill was hired because he claimed to be a Native American, he would seem to be guilty of academic fraud. But the situation is worse than this.

Thomas Brown, a professor of sociology at Lamar University, has written a paper that outlines what looks like a more conventional form of academic fraud on Churchill's part. According to Brown, Churchill fabricated a story about the U.S. Army intentionally creating a smallpox epidemic among the Mandan tribe in 1837, by simply inventing almost all of the story's most crucial facts, and then attributing these "facts" to sources that say nothing of the kind.

"One has only to read the sources that Churchill cites to realize the magnitude of his fraudulent claims for them," Brown writes. "We are not dealing with a few minor errors here. We are dealing with a story that Churchill has fabricated almost entirely from scratch. The lack of rationality on Churchill's part is mind-boggling." (Brown's essay can be read here: http://hal.lamar.edu/~browntf/Churchill1.htm.)

Similar charges have been leveled against Churchill by University of New Mexico law professor John Lavelle, a Native American scholar who has documented what appear to be equally fraudulent claims on Churchill's part regarding the General Allotment Act, one of the most important federal laws dealing with Indian lands. (Lavelle also accuses Churchill of plagiarism).

60Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Tue, Feb 08, 2005, 11:10
Interesting, MBJ. One would expect people to dig into Churchill, but this seems like an unexpectedly rich mine.

I know some people at the University of New Mexico (but not Lavelle)--I'm going to drop them a note and feel them out on this.
61Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:04
I would tend to think any essay written on 9/11 would not be a general reflection of one's highest scholarly capacities, since it was a very emotional time.



So, given a few years to contemplate....


A University of Colorado professor under fire for comparing World Trade Center victims to a Nazi war criminal on Tuesday refused to apologize for his remarks.

"I am not backing off an inch," said Ward Churchill, drawing an ovation from a standing-room-only crowd of about 1,200 students and backers gathered in a ballroom. "I owe no one an apology.


AND this gem....

"I do not work for the taxpayers of Colorado, and I don't work for Bill Owens. I work for you," Churchill told the audience

What an arrogant jerk. how very revealing of the mindset of his type. If he doesn't work for the taxpayers, uh, can they stop paying him? Of course, not - - he's entitled to gorge his talentless self at the public trough while giving the people he despises so much, the taxpayers paying his bill, the finger.

62Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:05
Not to kick a guy, but a source tells me that Churchill is also has taken a position of "'outing'" members of AIM whom he suspects of complicity in the murder of Anna Mae Aquash."

pd
63Myboyjack
      ID: 108231015
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 12:09
...and I've heard he kicks his dog.
64sarge33rd
      ID: 55152818
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 13:08
OK, it is starting to look like this guy probably does need to go. ASSUMING, he is fact guilty of the fraud reflected in post 59, that alone is sufficient reason to terminate his employment/association within my minds eye. All the rest, is simple compounding the weight in favor of following through with said termination.
65Jazz Dreamers
      ID: 178511913
      Wed, Feb 09, 2005, 16:34
Good work MBJ. I agree that Churchill seems a
questionable character, at best. I don't think he should
be fired merely because of his views. But his
scholarship and competence are legitimate grounds for
dismissal. It's a bit sad that gross incompetence can be
overlooked, while there's complete indignation when
something offensive is said. But I think the
overexaggeration and distortion of Churchill's remarks
are not nearly as bad as the (claimed) defincies in his
scholarship.

Of course, now Colorado University has a big problem
to deal with, since although there appear to be
legitimate grounds for firing him, Churchill probably
does have grounds for a lawsuit, given that the real
reason that they want to get rid of him is because of the
negative publicity he has generated.

I am becoming more and more skeptical that his other
writings are significantly better than his essay, which is
a piece of junk. I don't have a problem with him making
the general argument that he is trying to make; but I
agree there is good reason to seriously question his
general academic competence.
66Baldwin
      ID: 3512160
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 08:38
Ward Churchill, you have been owned...
The little Injun that could

© 2005 Universal Press Syndicate

If Ward Churchill loses his job teaching at the University of Colorado, he could end up giving Howard Dean a real run for his money to head the Democratic National Committee.

Churchill already has a phony lineage and phony war record – just like John Kerry! (Someone should also check out Churchill's claim that he spent Christmas 1968 at Wounded Knee.) In 1983, Churchill met with Libyan dictator Moammar Gadhafi and later felt it necessary to announce that his group, the American Indian Movement, "has not requested arms from the Libyan government." In 1997, he was one of the "witnesses" who spoke at a "Free Mumia" event in Philadelphia on behalf of convicted cop-killer Mumia Abu-Jamal.


Come to think of it, Churchill could give Hillary a run for her money. All that's left for Churchill to do now is meet with Al Sharpton and kiss Suha Arafat.

Churchill's claim that he is an Indian isn't an incidental boast, like John Kerry pretending to be Irish. It is central to his career, his writing, his political activism. Churchill has been the co-director of the American Indian Movement of Colorado, the vice chairperson of the American Indian "Anti-Defamation" Council, and an associate professor and coordinator of American Indian Studies at the University of Colorado.

By Churchill's own account, a crucial factor in his political development was "being an American Indian referred to as 'chief' in a combat unit" in Vietnam, which made him sad. This is known to con men everywhere as a "two-fer."

In addition to an absence of evidence about his Indian heritage, there is an absence of evidence that he was in combat in Vietnam. After the POW Network revealed that Churchill had never seen combat, he countered with this powerful argument: "They can say whatever the hell they want. That's confidential information, and I've never ordered its release from the Department of Defense. End of story." Maybe we should ask John Kerry to help Churchill fill out a form 180.

In one of his books, "Struggle for the Land," Churchill advances the argument that one-third of America is the legal property of Indians. And if you believe Churchill is a real Indian, he also happens to be part owner of the Brooklyn Bridge.

In his most famous oeuvre, the famed 9-11 essay calling the 9-11 World Trade Center victims "little Eichmanns," he said "Arab terrorists" – his quotes – had simply "responded to the massive and sustained American terror bombing of Iraq" by giving Americans "a tiny dose of their own medicine."

Having blurted out "Iraq" in connection with 9-11 in a moment of pique, Churchill had to backpedal when the anti-war movement needed to argue that Iraq had absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with Arab terrorism. He later attached an "Addendum" to the essay saying that the 9-11 attack was not only payback for Iraq, but also for various other of this country's depredations especially against "real Indians" (of which he is not one).

In light of the fact that Churchill's entire persona, political activism, curriculum vitae, writings and university positions are based on his claim that he's an Indian, it's rather churlish of him to complain when people ask if he really is one. But whenever he is questioned about his heritage, Churchill rails that inquiries into his ancestry are "absolutely indefensible."

Churchill has gone from claiming he is one-eighth Indian "on a good day" to claiming he is "three-sixteenths Cherokee," to claiming he is one-sixty-fourth Cherokee through a Revolutionary War era ancestor named Joshua Tyner. (At least he's not posing as a phony Indian math professor.) A recent investigation by the Denver Post revealed that Tyner's father was indeed married to a Cherokee. But that was only after Joshua's mother – and Churchill's relative – was scalped by Indians.

By now, all that's left of Churchill's claim to Indian ancestry is his assertion: "It is just something that was common knowledge in my family." (That, and his souvenir foam-rubber "tommyhawk" he bought at Turner Field in Atlanta.)

Over the years, there were other subtle clues the university might have noticed.

Churchill is not in the tribal registries kept since the 1800s by the federal government.

No tribe will enroll him – a verification process Churchill dismisses as "poodle papers" for Indians.

In 1990, Churchill was forced to stop selling his art as "Indian art" under federal legislation sponsored by then-representative – and actual Indian! – Ben Nighthorse Campbell, that required Indian artists to establish that they are accepted members of a federally recognized tribe. Churchill responded by denouncing the Indian artist who had exposed him. (Hey, does anybody need 200 velvet paintings of Elvis playing poker with Crazy Horse?)

In the early '90s, he hoodwinked an impecunious Cherokee tribe into granting him an "associate membership" by telling them he "wrote some books and was a big-time author." A tribal spokeswoman explained: He "convinced us he could help our people." They never heard from him again – yet another treaty with the Indians broken by the white man. Soon thereafter, the tribe stopped offering "associate memberships."

A decade ago, Churchill was written up in an article in News From Indian Country, titled, "Sovereignty and Its Spokesmen: The Making of an Indian." The article noted that Churchill had claimed membership in a scrolling series of Indian tribes, but over "the course of two years, NFIC hasn't been able to confirm a single living Indian relative, let alone one real relative that can vouch for his tribal descent claim."

When real Indians complained to Colorado University in 1994 that a fake Indian was running their Indian Studies program, a spokeswoman for the CU president said the university needed "to determine if the position was designated for a Native American. And I can't answer that right now." Apparently it was answered in Churchill's favor since he's still teaching.

If he's not an Indian, it's not clear what Churchill does have to offer a university. In his book, "A Little Matter of Genocide: Holocaust and Denial in the Americas, 1492 to the Present," Churchill denounces Jews for presuming to imagine the Holocaust was unique. In the chapter titled "Lie for Lie: Linkages between Holocaust Deniers and Proponents of the Uniqueness of the Jewish Experience in World War II," Churchill calls the Third Reich merely "a crystallization" of Christopher Columbus' ravages of his people (if he were an Indian).

His research apparently consisted of watching the Disney movie "Pocahontas," which showed that the Indians meant the European settlers no harm. (That's if you don't count the frequent scalpings.)

Even the credulous Nation magazine – always on red alert for tales of government oppression – dismissed Churchill's 1988 book "Agents of Repression" about Cointelpro-type operations against the American Indian Movement, saying the book "does not give much new information" and "even a reader who is inclined to believe their allegations will want more evidence than they provide." If The Nation won't buy your anti-U.S. government conspiracy theories, Kemosabe, it's probably time to pack up the old teepee and hit the trail of tears.

In response to the repeated complaints from Indians that a phony Indian was running CU's Indian Studies program, Churchill imperiously responded: "Guess what that means, guys? I'm not taking anyone's job, there wouldn't be an Indian Studies program if I wasn't coordinating it ... They won't give you a job just because you have the paper." This white man of English and Swiss-German descent apparently believes there are no actual Indians deserving of his position at CU. (No wonder the Indians aren't crazy about him.)

As long as we're all agreed that there are some people who don't deserve jobs at universities, why isn't Churchill one of them? - She Who Owns All She Surveys

67Texas Flood
      ID: 5813868
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 09:01
Curchill is a moron. If he wanted to take advantange of his "Native American" heritage he should have formed a corporation and opend a casino.
68Baldwin
      ID: 3512160
      Thu, Feb 10, 2005, 09:15
They might actually check to see if you are an Indian before handing you that license.

Maybe he can now switch his 'Most Favored Victim' status to 'slave' since he's been owned. More accurate, that one.
69Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 11:05
70Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 16:19
Raelians to bestow Honorary Priest title to Ward Churchill

This is just special:

Miami, Feb 10, 2005. Rael, leader of the International Raelian Movement (www.rael.org) has just given the "Honorary Priest" title to Ward Churchill (University of Colorado professor) for his essay which most of the US is decrying as insensitive or unpatriotic.

Ricky Roehr (leader of the US Raelian Movement) is quoted: "Mr. Churchill is exactly right in what he wrote! If we are to have peace, we must take responsibility for our part in the violence and stop handing out blame as if we have done nothing. Quite the contrary, we have done terrible things to countless people. [snip]

It's not too late. If the US were to spend only a portion of the time and money it spends for war and apply it toward aopolgies and actions toward reparations, we would become as we once were - a benevolent big brother instead of the big bully everyone hates but fears. And while we're apologizing, send one to Ward Churchill, too."


I think Churchill has found is optimal audience.

71Perm Dude
      Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 16:39
If only they could copy a hundred Ward Churchills...
72Myboyjack
      Dude
      ID: 014826271
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 18:17
You don't know that they haven't. They may have those Churchill clones all cryogenically frozen, just waiting, waiting........
73Baldwin
      ID: 431261023
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 18:18
Visit a hundred university history departments.
74Timing
      ID: 460272520
      Fri, Feb 11, 2005, 23:51
Did Baldwin really post another Coulter editorial? *smirk*
75sarge33rd
      ID: 35132922
      Sat, Feb 12, 2005, 01:27
question isnt did he, its; when doesnt he?
76Baldwin
      ID: 431261023
      Sat, Feb 12, 2005, 06:35
Countering the assertion of many in American academia, a Saudi official said extremist teachings, not poverty or unemployment, are the root causes of terrorism in the kingdom, the homeland of billionaire Osama bin Laden and 15 of the 19 Sept. 11 hijackers.

At a news conference in Riyadh, Labor Minister Ghazi Al-Gosaibi blamed the spread of terrorism on the "indoctrination that teaches young people they can kill justifiably" ...
He's heard of Ward Churchill?
Just two weeks ago, a Washington human-rights group released a year-long study concluding the government of Saudi Arabia is disseminating propaganda through American mosques that teaches hatred of Jews and Christians and instructs Muslims that they are on a mission behind enemy lines in a land of unbelievers.

The 89-page report by Freedom House's Center for Religious Freedom, "Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Fill American Mosques," concludes the Saudi government propaganda examined reflects a "totalitarian ideology of hatred that can incite to violence."

The report says the fact it is "being mainstreamed within our borders through the efforts of a foreign government, namely Saudi Arabia, demands our urgent attention."
In other news a professor who I take very seriously is possibly being fired for claiming 9/11 was an inside job.

He runs The Emporer's New Clothes' website. The world is so perverse, I am guessing this guy gets fired while Churchill and Saudi government sponsored terrorism indoctrination continue apace.
77Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 04:24
The integrity of the good doctor comes into further question. [if he can really be called doctor, his alma mater can find no thesis on record]
Churchill, whose integrity has been challenged since news broke earlier last month of his paper blaming victims of 9-11 for the attacks, made an Indian-theme serigraph in 1981 called "Winter Attack" and printed 150 copies.

But one of the buyers, Duke Prentup, told Denver's CBS affiliate KCNC-TV of a stunning discovery he made last month while flipping through a book of illustrations by the late artist Thomas E. Mails.

The work signed by Churchill virtually is a mirror image of Mails' 1972 pen and ink sketch, "The Mystic Warriors of the Plains."

KCNC reporter Raj Chohan took a cameraman to Churchill's office Thursday to confront him with the revelation and received an angry response.

"Get that camera out of my face," Churchill said.

Chohan followed the professor down the hallway to his office, trying to show him Mails' piece and asking to explain why it "looks like you ripped it off."


Artwork signed by Ward Churchill (KCNC-TV, Denver)


Original artwork by Thomas Mails(KCNC-TV, Denver)

That prompted Churchill to take a swing at Chohan.

The reporter said: "Sir, that's assault, you can't do that. Can I ask you about this? It looks like you copied it."

Churchill: "I was just grabbed by the arm. And that [camera] gets out of my face."

Chohan: "Sir, we're allowed to take these pictures, this is a public space."

Churchill: "You're not allowed to grab me by the arm."

Chohan: "He didn't touch you sir, we've got it all on tape. Sir, this is called Winter Attack. It's a serigraph by you. It looks like it was copied from Thomas Mails artwork. Can we talk to you about that please?"

Churchill came out of his office several minutes later and agreed to talk, acknowledging his artwork is based on the Mails piece.

He insisted, however, he disclosed that during its initial release.

"It is an original art work by me, after Thomas Mails," Churchill said. "The fact that the purchaser was ignorant of the reality of what was perfectly publicly stated at the time the edition was printed is not my responsibility."

However, no credit was given to Mails on the artwork, and Churchill refused to provide documentation to back his claims.

Intellectual property attorney Jim Hubbell told the Denver station such documentation, if it exists, still would not protect Churchill from copyright infringement unless he had consent from Mails.

The son of the late Thomas Mails told KCNC the family retains the copyright.

"My father invested a great deal of himself in his work, and from that he developed a great fierceness in defending his work," Ryan Mails said. "I cannot imagine he would ever grant permission to anyone to copy one of his pieces."
78Boldwin
      ID: 1411237
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 06:01
No, Ward, you didn't reverse the picture for artistic reasons.
79Texas Flood
      ID: 326462912
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 10:49
I saw the tape on O'Riely last night. Some pretty funny stuff. It appeared that Churchill swatted at the reporter but it was hardly assult.

Obviously the art work is as phoney as Churchill!
80Perm Dude
      ID: 030792616
      Sat, Feb 26, 2005, 11:04
Let the copyright guy insert something here: A single copy (or a couple) wouldn't be a copyright infringment, but 150 copies, for sale, puts him right in the crosshairs.

Also, Churchill, whose integrity has been challenged since news broke earlier last month.... This is absolutely false. As I've noted before, his integrity has been challenged for your if anyone was interested in AI affairs.

pd
81soxzeitgeist
      ID: 2421159
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 10:33
Churchill did little to dispel my ideas of his scumbaggery last night on Real Time. And his appearance on Mahers show brought my opinion of that comic/pundit way down. I generally have liked Bill, but giving Ward the airtime (and throwing Guckert-esque questions at him to boot) was a total waste and a damn shame.

On a lighter note, we can all take this quiz to help us understand each other better - even if we can't actually hear each other.
82Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 12:58
29% Yankee
83Myboyjack
      ID: 121159118
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:07
81% (Dixie). Did you have any Confederate ancestors?

uh..yeah.
84Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:13
The Churchill affair is an expression of the degenerate state of American social science and humanities faculties. It illuminates the political subversion of the academic enterprise by tenured radicals who have made universities like Boulder political institutions of the left, and in the process so diminished the presence of conservative, libertarian and even centrist thought from university faculties that hate-America radicals like Churchill are now pillars of the profession.

The remedy for this situation is not to purge the Ward Churchills from academic faculties. Their ideas are by now entrenched in the university curriculum and cannot be stamped out by firing an individual even if that were advisable (which it is not). They need to be confronted intellectually. Their scholarly incompetence needs to be exposed, and students need to be presented with an alternative view of history that is closer to reality.

The remedy for the Churchill problem is first of all to embrace the idea of intellectual diversity as a primary university value. This will insulate the university from attempts by legislators to remedy the situation themselves. The American public will accept the presence of an extremist like Churchill on a university faculty if they are convinced that the university is a true marketplace of ideas and that Churchill's perverse views will be answered by his peers.

The real problem is that there is no such diversity at the University of Colorado at Boulder today. In the present academic system, conservatives are as rare as unicorns, and have an almost impossible barrier to overcome in order to get hired. That is because search and hiring committees are composed of professors like Ward Churchill. That is the problem that the regents of the University of Colorado (and similar institutions) need to begin to address, now. - David Horowitz
Fire the hiring committees and tell the protesters who are sure to appear to go fly a kite.

85soxzeitgeist
      ID: 6225115
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 13:43
13% (Yankee). Wow. Your Yankee score is in the top 20 percentile! Even tho' I'm a Sox fan.
86sarge33rd
      ID: 32239314
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 14:03
39% (Yankee). You are definitely a Yankee.
87Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 18:44
That score certainly doesn't mean east coast yankee. Virtually ever answer specified great lakes accent as you would expect coming from Chi-town.
88katietx
      ID: 3522518
      Sat, Mar 05, 2005, 23:47
48% (Yankee). Barely into the Yankee category.
89TB
      Leader
      ID: 031811922
      Sun, Mar 06, 2005, 00:08
55% (Dixie). Just above the Mason-Dixon Line
90Boldwin
      ID: 241292815
      Wed, Mar 09, 2005, 04:23
What do you know, the University of Colorado isn't adverse to firing professors after all...
Professor Phil Mitchell, who has a doctorate in American social history from the university, says he recently was informed his contract would not be renewed after this year because "his teaching was not up to the department standards," according to Denver Post columnist David Harsanyi.


Mitchell, winner in 1998 of the prestigious SOAR Award for teacher of the year, told the columnist he has wondered how long he would last.

"I've had enough. I am clearly being closed out for political or religious reasons," Mitchell says. "I am one of the top-rated professors in the history of the department."

A colleague, William Wei, described by Harsanyi as "hardly a conservative," said, "Phil is a great person, a good teacher and highly regarded by his students."

Harsanyi said Mitchell, who has taught at the Hallett Diversity Program for 24 straight semesters, upset the head of the department by presenting a diverse opinion.

After quoting respected black intellectual Thomas Sowell in a discussion about affirmative action, Mitchell was berated as a racist.

"That would have come as a surprise to my black children," said Mitchell, who has nine children, two of them adopted African-Americans.

Then, says Harsanyi, the professor used a book on liberal Protestantism in the late 19th century.

Harsanyi writes: "So repulsed by the word 'god' was one student, she complained, and the department chair fired him without a meeting."

The columnist points out that unlike Churchill's case, there was no protest by faculty and students.

Mitchell later was reinstated, Harsanyi said, but never was able to teach in the history department again.

"People say liberals run the university. I wish they did," Mitchell told the Denver columnist. "Most liberals understand the need for intellectual diversity. It's the radical left that kills you."
A bit too generous in that last paragraph I am afraid.

92 Paul York
      ID: 41502516
      Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 18:20
Few who written on this subject have addressed Hannah Arrendt's thesis on evil, from which Churchill derived the infamous comment.

In _Eichmann: The Banality of Evil_ Arrendt argues that thoughtless beurocracy and abdication of moral responsibility to authority figures by careerists allowed someone like as ordinary as Eichmann (really a bureaucrat) to schedule the death trains.

The case can easily be made that everyone who participates in modern industrial economies commits evil in the same way, although not on the scale of genocide necessarily - though indeed a few are directly implicated in mass-murder.

Whatever the case, 9/11 was a great tragedy and this violence cannot be excused under any circumstances. But we ought to consider the way in which we - all of us - are complicit in crimes against humanity and the Earth.

The negative social and environmental effects associated with capitalism: industrialization, globalization, child labour, trade inequity, the negatie effects of climate change (namely drought and disease and flooding), natural resource extraction, and war are but a few of the ways in which the murder and impovrishment of innocent human beings occurs.

Churchill and other native scholars write and speak regarding the colonization of North America, which resulted in the extermination of some fifty million people over the last five hundred years and which is still ongoing through natural resource extraction (mining in principal, which creates toxic tailings).

Churchill views himself in a state of war with the United States and his firing as a political act of oppression. By firing him, the University of Colorado has simply reinforced the polarization between people who feel excluded, marginalized and exploited by an unsustainable system of mass consumption and insanity - the same system that invade Iraq or supports the destruction of the Earth.

I am not supporting Churchill's overall philosophy -- I personally believe in non-violence, which he is steadfastly against -- but it is important to understand the initial statment that cause that furor, and to put it in context.

There is a degree to which you, me and everyone who does not live a pure and ethical life (growing our own food, making our own clothes, not exploiting animals, not driving or flying or buying things make by slave labour in China) is a "little Eichmann" - which is to say, a thoughtless person whose existence in North America is expoitative and contributes in a small indirect way (or sometimes direct way) to someone else's misery and death.

The structures of our society, built on violence and exploitation -- and management by the type of people who work in office towers -- ensure that we are all in small ways (or large) complicit with this banal type of evil.

We do this either those whom we displaced, or those whom our system improvishes in the developing nations, or future generations who will suffer from drought and climate change and lack of resources because of the insatiable greed of this generation.

Scientists are now talking about the possible collapse of civilization as a result of climate change. The evidence for great tragedy is clear and obvious. We in this society are complicit and do bear responsibility. I think that if you put Churchill's remarks in that context, they make some sort of sense.

The solution, however, is not violence, but the cessation of all forms of violence everywhere - industrial, environmental, social, global, governmental, terrorist and militant.
93Seattle Zen
      ID: 49112418
      Mon, Feb 25, 2008, 19:07
There is a degree to which you, me and everyone who does not live a pure and ethical life (growing our own food, making our own clothes, not exploiting animals, not driving or flying or buying things make by slave labour in China)

The solution, however, is not violence, but the cessation of all forms of violence everywhere - industrial, environmental, social, global, governmental, terrorist and militant.


Sounds like the solution - the cessation of all forms of violence - would require to "start over", for all industrialized methods of production today are guilty of violence, right. And starting over would be a huge disruption, so we would all have to at least start with growing our own food and making our own clothes.

This sounds a lot like Pol Pot's plan and his plan sucked.

Could we at least keep the horses and water buffalo to pull the plows? I know you aren't keen on exploiting animals, but as strong as I am, I would be miserable pulling a plow. Horses really do the job a lot better.
94C1-NRB
      ID: 5932328
      Tue, Feb 26, 2008, 12:17
Re: 81- 89% Dixie. Do you still use Confederate money?
Ya'll got a problem with that?
95holt
      ID: 341542412
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 05:41
LOL

65% Dixie.
Well under the Mason-Dixon Line

why would anyone say "you all" when "y'all" gets the job done?

I'll never forget the time that I told a grocery clerk in Minnesota that I was "fixin" to do something. I may as well have been speaking Arabic. I guess I understood that northerners didn't say fixin, but it kind of blew me away that she didn't even know what it meant. I mean she even got to hear me use the word in a sentence and she couldn't deduce what I meant.
96Tree
      ID: 39233124
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 06:42
when i first moved to Texas as a kid, i remember a teacher telling me to to put something "up"...

so, i held it above my head. how did i know that meant "put it away"...
97holt
      ID: 341542412
      Wed, Mar 12, 2008, 08:31
When I was in the 5th grade the police chief came to our classroom and told us about some local vandalism. I guess most of us were pretty intimidated. At some point he asked us if he could see our souls. So the room was quiet for a few seconds. I remember being confused as to how a person could show their soul to someone. Then finally one of the kids (who likely wasn't very familiar with the word soul) lifted his foot up in the air to show the cop the sole of his shoe. Then it all sunk in and the rest of us showed off our soles.
98sarge33rd
      ID: 99331714
      Fri, Mar 14, 2008, 12:13
I rather enjoyed this guy:

One man speaks his mind...

In all honesty, I really dont disagree with much anything he has to say. (Does that mean I might lose my "self-loathing Liberal" membership card?????
99nerveclinic
      ID: 105222
      Fri, Mar 14, 2008, 13:08


I'll never forget the time that I told a grocery clerk in Minnesota that I was "fixin" to do something. I may as well have been speaking Arabic. I guess I understood that northerners didn't say fixin, but it kind of blew me away that she didn't even know what it meant.

Maybe the guy thought he walked into an episode of the Beverly Hillbillies... 8-}

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