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Subject: Canabisis Greater Risk For Lung Cancer Then Cigs
Posted by: nerveclinic
- [36536204] Tue, Jan 29, 2008, 06:50
You had to figure this was coming...
I argued for years with people who tried to tell me "oh no cannabis is different, it doesn't have tar etc, etc."
HONG KONG (Reuters) - Smoking a joint is equivalent to 20 cigarettes in terms of lung cancer risk, scientists in New Zealand have found, as they warned of an "epidemic" of lung cancers linked to cannabis.
Studies in the past have demonstrated that cannabis can cause cancer, but few have established a strong link between cannabis use and the actual incidence of lung cancer.
In an article published in the European Respiratory Journal, the scientists said cannabis could be expected to harm the airways more than tobacco as its smoke contained twice the level of carcinogens, such as polyaromatic hydrocarbons, compared with tobacco cigarettes.
The method of smoking also increases the risk, since joints are typically smoked without a proper filter and almost to the very tip, which increases the amount of smoke inhaled. The cannabis smoker inhales more deeply and for longer, facilitating the deposition of carcinogens in the airways.
"Cannabis smokers end up with five times more carbon monoxide in their bloodstream (than tobacco smokers)," team leader Richard Beasley, at the Medical Research Institute of New Zealand, said in a telephone interview.
"There are higher concentrations of carcinogens in cannabis smoke ... what is intriguing to us is there is so little work done on cannabis when there is so much done on tobacco."
The researchers interviewed 79 lung cancer patients and sought to identify the main risk factors for the disease, such as smoking, family history and occupation. The patients were questioned about alcohol and cannabis consumption.
In this high-exposure group, lung cancer risk rose by 5.7 times for patients who smoked more than a joint a day for 10 years, or two joints a day for 5 years, after adjusting for other variables, including cigarette smoking.
"While our study covers a relatively small group, it shows clearly that long-term cannabis smoking increases lung cancer risk," wrote Beaseley.
"Cannabis use could already be responsible for one in 20 lung cancers diagnosed in New Zealand," he added.
"In the near future we may see an 'epidemic' of lung cancers connected with this new carcinogen. And the future risk probably applies to many other countries, where increasing use of cannabis among young adults and adolescents is becoming a major public health problem."
link
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| 84 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 20:52
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They've gone off topic dozens of posts ago
Actually, the cost and effectiveness of vaporizors is very much on topic. Further, it's not a very extensive topic, frankly. There have been very few studies and most of the info out there has already been vtted here with very few topical disagreements in the discussion. And certainly not similar at all to a topic that evolves with the news cycle, like discussions about a legislative battle or a Presidential election or a war debate.
But by all means, keep trying. Eventually your desperate and pathetic search for something legitimate to bitch about will turn something up. In the process, please continue to toss about off-topic ad hominem and whine about unfairness like a catty teenie bopper with no date to the prom.
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| 85 | walk
ID: 6016295
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 21:39
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Not exactly. After much research, I will acquire an herbalaire2.1. Thanks for the help. I have a condition, you know...(asthma).
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| 86 | Tree
ID: 560233015
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 21:52
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i'll be over next week.
what made you choose that one?
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| 87 | holt
ID: 360131020
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:13
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"munchie" jokes. An ignorant stereotype. I've seen someone get the munchies while high maybe once every thousand times. Probably had nothing to do with the weed.
NC - I live in Oklahoma. Trust me, what you find in California bears no resemblance to 99% of what you'll find in the Midwest.
Legalization isn't really a left/right topic. I'm more conservative than I am liberal, but I am very much for legalization (as are the editors of the National Review), and apparently the Democrat-led congress is opposed to legalization. Sure, most evangelicals are against it, but that doesn't necessarily make it a left/right issue.
Boxman, it might be nice and tidy to lump all "pro-weeders" into a pro-abortion, anti-gun, tax and spend atheist pile, but it would simply be inaccurate. You might be surprised to find that people of all walks of life find some value in marijuana. Don't be scared of it. It's not the Devil.
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| 88 | WiddleAvi
ID: 251113917
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:20
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Just curious....For Boxman, Jag,& Boldwin - What are your views on Alcohol and prohibition ? Should Alcohol be illegal ?
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| 89 | sarge33rd
ID: 76442923
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:28
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FTR...As in the skit reference, I was thinking of Cheech and Chong. Its a line in one of the movies too, when the cop stops the van made of grass and the exhaust pipe has the back of the van smoldering away.
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| 90 | Tree
ID: 560233015
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:44
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Holt - i emailed you about fantasy baseball. we're nearly at the keeper deadline, so i hope you find the email!
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| 91 | Pancho Villa
ID: 47161721
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:53
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#87
That's a great post, Holt. Let's hear your opinions on other issues.
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| 92 | holt
ID: 360131020
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 22:59
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ok tree I'll check it out.
sarge, now I remember it.
"Dave's not here".
"NO MAN! I am Dave!"
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| 93 | holt
ID: 360131020
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 23:11
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haha PV, I usually steer clear of the politics forum because the strongest political belief I hold is that the two-party system is a scourge of epic proportions. All other political beliefs I hold pale in comparison. As long as Dems/Reps run the country, it just doesn't seem pragmatic for me to spend much time debating political issues. It's just spinning wheels. That's the way I see it anyway.
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| 94 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 23:15
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Holt, waiting to hear from you as well.
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| 95 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Wed, Jan 30, 2008, 23:29
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I'm conservative on most issues, but liberal on many other's including legalization/decriminalization of marijuana. I've been smoking it to alleviate symptoms of MS for 5 years now. Since I'm an everyday user, I'm definitely buying a vaporizer, as the smoke reeks havoc with my sinuses. Still trying to figure out which one will suit my purposes the best. I did buy a ubie to sample the smokeless experience. It worked pretty good, but not nearly as efficient as the vaporizers discussed here.
I'm a former health care provider and I know several former peers who imbibe on a recreational basis. I've also partied with friends one who is a cop, another an electrician, another a building contractor. Many of the same have quit because of the serious consequences and hassles of a positive drug test. But the one's who do smoke, do it with or instead of that after work cocktail. And they don't walk around stoned all day.
There's a time and a place.......
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| 96 | holt
ID: 360131020
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 03:14
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Exactly. Most everyone I know who uses it does so only in their own free time. Watching tv, playing guitar, playing video games, reading, etc.
Anyway, back on topic, I remember reading a study a year or two ago that stated that cannabis smoke is less carcinogenic than tobacco smoke. basically, it's because of the way that nicotine interacts with the body. it also stated that marijuana has been shown to actually prevent some forms of tumors by inhibiting the growth of blood vessels that help them form. the catch was that if you smoked both tobacco and cannabis that the helpful aspects of cannabis would be negated. Sorry I don't know who performed the study but I'm sure you can google it.
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| 97 | walk
ID: 4003315
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 06:07
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Well said, mjd. Although watching "Harold & Kumar white castle" reminded me of the "good old days." That movie was a great throwback to the cheech & chong flicks, and I am a movie snob!
MITH. I chose the herbalaire2.1 cos, after much research, there seemed to be some consensus that it was a quality product that was relatively easy to use. Some websites that reviewed these things were bogus, and some seemed legit. I found some discussion forums, too, and that helps. I was initially going to get a $150 range model like the vapolution or hot box, as recommended by some dudes I called at Vaporizer Giant, as well as some positive reviews, but then I thought if I was going to spend a couple a hunnerd bucks, I might as well get the best one for the mone, short of the esteemed volcano. Hence, the herbalaire.
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| 98 | Tree
ID: 35024315
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 06:27
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Walk - obviously let us know your personal reviews.
regarding H&K - i was late to the show, only seeing the movie within the last 6 months or so, but man, what a movie it was. certainly one of the funniest films i've seen in a long time, and neil patrick harris was outstanding in his cameo-style role. and of course, the two jewish characters were hysterical as well.
i can't wait for the sequel.
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| 99 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 06:37
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Off Topic sorry but I an't resist.
Holt two-party system is a scourge of epic proportions. All other political beliefs I hold pale in comparison. As long as Dems/Reps run the country, it just doesn't seem pragmatic for me to spend much time debating political issues. It's just spinning wheels. That's the way I see it anyway.
Weird, I could have written those exact words to describe my political philosophy. I've only voted for one Dem and no Repubs since voting for Prez in 1980 and I have never missed an election.
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| 100 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 06:40
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Box there are conservatives who smoke pot, they just can't afford politically to admit it in public.
If I post a picture of a bag of Cheetos, who do you think will be the first one to lick their monitor? I might post a picture of french onion dip just so Seattle Zen pokes his monitor with chips and get pissed off because they're breaking in the dip.
That's actually pretty funny. Especially the french dip part.
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| 101 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 09:44
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Tree, will do. H&K -- I laughed so hard so much. Hey, H&K Escape from Guantanamo Bay (Go to Amsterdam) should be out in April, too. Neil Patrick Harris is in it, again.
Harold & Kumar, IMDB
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| 102 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611
Thu, Jan 31, 2008, 23:30
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Boxman -
I wonder, does it not enter into your little mind that all of these supposed "pot heads" are so much smarter and more eloquent than you? I mean, the stereotype you are desperately clinging to, that pot makes you stupid, really is an embarrassing statement of your own intelligence. If pot makes you so dumb, why do MITH's, biliruben's, walk's, tree's, and my posts make yours look like a third grader from Bangladesh trying, without much success, to practice his English?
If I post a picture of a bag of Cheetos, who do you think will be the first one to lick their monitor? I might post a picture of french onion dip just so Seattle Zen pokes his monitor with chips and get pissed off because they're breaking in the dip.
You do realize that if we were to enter an essay writing contest, you would be humiliated. I could finish judging a Cannabis Cup, sit down and knock out an essay that would destroy you, I'd even spot you ten points. Hell, I'd judge each category - Indica, Sativa, and hash and still charm the pants off the judges. See, most people don't find your ham-fisted, sophomoric put downs funny. Similarly, most people don't find humor in painting the Catholic church as nothing more than a collection people lead by pedophiles.
Where is SZ anyway?!
I have been in Mexico. Once I heard that we were going to be getting a cash prize from the Feds to stimulate our economy, I decided to spend it before I got it on overseas goods, like most Americans.
Vaporizers. I've used a number of different ones and they all pale in comparison to the Volcano. Even at $420, it's worth it. As MITH notes, cheap ones often overheat and the smell you get from the bud is NASTY.
I also agree with Bili that vaporizers do not get you as high. They simply are not as efficient. I know someone who uses a Volcano and then captures the remaining THC and uses it in baked goods. His cookies are quite strong, so there certainly is some THC left over. Now, if you are a grower and you have buds coming out of your ears, sure, a vaporizer is great. Likewise, if you are a medical marijuana patient, you have to consume amazing amounts of marijuana and it is just healthier. I know a few patients who smoke an ounce a week, which is mind boggling, and some use vaporizers, some don't.
As for the supposed "scientific" study Nerve linked, I am extremely skeptical. I think we can all agree that a "beer" is 12 ounces of beer. What is a joint? Self reporting? There have been studies done here in the US that show that people who smoke cigarettes and marijuana have no increased risk for lung cancer, yes, if you smoke cigarettes, you should also smoke marijuana because you will have the same cancer risk as someone who smokes nothing. In short, there is a lot of studying of cannabis smoke and lung cancer to be done and I've said in the past that I believe that some day marijuana smoke will be shown to fight cancer.
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| 103 | walk
ID: 2530286
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 09:37
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Holy cow, an ounce a week! Man, those folks sure must be ill. So sad.
SZ, great post regarding the pothead stereotype. There are stereotypical pothead, and there are stereotypical alcoholics. I think most people are recreational drinkers and users, and therefore, the stereotypes are just that, inappropriate and applicable to the extremes. I'd rather know and hangout with a true-blue pothead though than a true blue alcoholic anyday, too.
SZ, have you tried the herbalaire? If so, does it really pale in comparison to the volcano? I'd be bummed to hear it, but need to ask, cos I'm gonna get an herbal aire. I read so many reviews that while, in general, it's not as good as a volcano, it's still (very) good. I'm hoping for a toyota in comparison to say a lexus (both made by toyota, d'oh!, I know). I just need a good, solid product, but not necessarily the ultimate.
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| 104 | holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 09:53
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The researchers interviewed 79 lung cancer patients and sought to identify the main risk factors for the disease, such as smoking, family history and occupation. The patients were questioned about alcohol and cannabis consumption.
In this high-exposure group, lung cancer risk rose by 5.7 times for patients who smoked more than a joint a day for 10 years, or two joints a day for 5 years, after adjusting for other variables, including cigarette smoking.
Couple of thoughts come to mind. First, a sample size of 79 people is too small. Second, how many of those 79 fell into the category of 2 joints a day for 5 years? Certainly not enough to come to any definitive conclusion.
"In this high-exposure group, lung cancer risk rose by 5.7 times"
How can their lung cancer risk be higher than anyone else in the study? Everyone in the study already has lung cancer. I mean I think I can guess what they were trying to say here, but, ah nevermind.
Since the study was so small, why don't they just come right out and list how many of the 79 were heavy pot smokers? Probably because when you say 8 of the 79 used pot heavily, the numbers are so obviously small that anyone can tell that you don't have enough data to make any kind of real conclusion.
You need a much larger study, and preferably not just a study of New Zealanders.
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| 105 | holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 10:11
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Just looked it up in the journal (horribly written article btw). 324 controls were in the study.
I have to wonder, are the control subjects as likely to be truthful about their alcohol and drug use as the cancer patients, and also, aren't people who smoke cigarettes more likely to use marijuana than non-smokers?
here's the pdf
http://erj.ersjournals.com/cgi/reprint/31/2/280.pdf
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| 106 | Seattle Zen
ID: 529121611
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 10:44
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SZ, have you tried the herbalaire?
I have not, nor have I even heard of it before now. Hope you like it and give it a review after you have used it for a while.
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| 107 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 12:36
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A quick scan of the paper for my major misgivings:
A total of 493 controls were contacted and invited for interview, and 324 (66%) agreed to participate.
That's not a very good participation rate. If you look at the risk factors for cases and controls, they show controls were of a much higher SES, and lived a much healthier life-style overall than the cases. You can attempt to control for these issues in the analysis but there are always going to be correlates of unhealthy living that are associated with case-control status as well as lung cancer that you are not going to be able to assess. For instance, if you believe second-hand smoke is associated with lung-cancer, frequenting or working in places with a higher incidence of SHS would probably correlate highly with SES. Similarly with workplaces where exposures to noxious fumes, particulates and asbestos may be prevalent.
Also, face-to-face interviews are notorious for the rate of under-reporting of stigmatized risk factors such as alcohol, drugs and smoking.
Finally, though it wasn't quite as bad as I thought, the numbers in the high risk group were small (14 cases, 4 controls) and hence the the 95% CI extremely wide (1.5-21.6).
Overall, I think the biggest flaw is the large number control participants declining to participate. Anybody smoking large amounts of dope every day, is pretty unlikely to invite someone into their home for an interview.
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| 108 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 13:14
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bili KNOWS this shiit. A toke for you, man.
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| 109 | Myboyjack
ID: 56039812
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 13:19
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So, do y'all believe that nerve's "study" has been debunked?
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| 110 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 13:26
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No. I am simply pointing out it's limitations. I didn't read the discussion, but my guess is they probably mentioned at least some of these points themselves.
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| 111 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 14:28
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OK so getting back on topic.
Bili thanks for the break down and analysis.
That having been said, it's always been one of my, ummm, pet peeves about my fellow smokers that they denied the very high probability, that, used long term on a very regular basis, there were likely negative repercussions.
For example. When I was a smoker and caught a "chest cold" (frequently) it would often last for weeks. Heavy coughing, lots of phlegm, loud hacking cough.
You know what, once I stopped smoking, all these symptoms stopped. I can't remember the last time I caught a "chest cold".
Now I know as Bili pointed out, that 1 person is a small "test case".
I'm also smart enough to be honest with myself, and I always was, even when I smoked. In fact I believe I even discussed this with Zen in Seattle one night...over a smoke.
When I smoked...
1) I had a heavy hacking cough.
2) Chest colds lasted for weeks.
3) All symptoms stopped when I quit.
I believe the 3 statements to be fact and I don't care how small the test group is.
Now I conclude from this that the human lung/throat probably wasn't meant to inhale and hold, hold it, don't let it out, hold it, hold it coughhhhs...
Sorry, just not what human biology was designed for.
As far as addiction goes I was absolutely addicted. It wasn't a physical addiction like heroin withdrawal but there were consequences if I tried not to smoke. I still have the same symptoms with alcohol...I can't sleep.
If I didn't have a hit before bed I would stare at the ceiling for hours...this went on for years so...I smoked every night. I would even say to myself...you know self, if you don't smoke you won't sleep tonight.
Sorry, that's an addiction.
Now I'm not anti cannabis.
I will smoke it again in my life.
I don't think that the recreational use, as long as it's not consistent and especially excessive amounts consistently, is bad for you. I want it legalized and sold like alcohol. I think if it's used in reasonable doses as a replacement for alcohol abuse it's a positive...I believe all of that...
But I never kidded myself that the hacking cough (The kind that was so "thick" you could feel your lungs) and 3 week chest colds were a plus for my health. I never thought the phlegm I hacked up was "normal". I didn't kid myself.
Yeah the test groups are small. No one seems to want to do the heavy lifting for cannabis health research, it's a pity.
All that having been said...I don't think there's anything at all wrong or unintelligent about limited responsible use.
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| 112 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 15:02
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As an everyday medicinal user, I've actually been forced to take days off when I have a bad cold due to excess coughing and chest congestion. It can be pretty miserable suffering with a severe cold and painful muscle spasms.
I usually have an excellent quality supply and if that's the case, I'm usually only doing 8-10 hits per day to maintain a therapeutic effect, so I can make an ounce last for months.
I think I'm just allergic to the smoke itself. I don't tolerate cigarette smoke at all. Wintertime is definitely the worst, as chest cold symptoms can linger for weeks.
I did order the herbalaire vaporizer and though I do plan to continue smoking, I will use the vaporizer so I can smoke at least a little less.
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| 113 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 15:31
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Nice one, nerve. Can't argue with your reasoning; your sample size is the most relevant for you. And, I would agree, if you needed a hit to sleep, you had an addiction. The need is the key.
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| 114 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 15:33
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From what they say, the vapo is the potential answer for the issues you and nerve discuss, holt. I think that's the reason I want to try this out...smoke of any kinda cannot be good for the respiratory tract. In moderation, it prolly is not biggie, but if it can be avoided with this vapo stuff, whether it's moderation or heavy use, then it seems to be an obvious solution.
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| 115 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 15:34
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Whooops, sorry mjd, I said holt when I meant to refer to you, mjd, in #114.
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| 116 | mjd
Leader
ID: 501381415
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 15:58
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NP, walk, I knew what you meant. And thanks to you and several others for input on this thread. I just spent the majority of December with a bad cold and coincidently was looking for a viable alternative to smoking.
I've tried a dozen different meds for the muscle spasms and nothing even comes close to relieving them. Fortunately, they usually don't become problematic until later in the day, so I usually don't start treating them until 4 or 5 PM. But it is easier to avoid the spasms completely if I begin treatment before they get started.
At least this way I have the early part of the day to get stuff done before I get wasted.
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| 117 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 16:10
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Makes sense, mjd. I sure ghope you get some relief, whatever you do to help yourself. And, I hope the vapo approach is succesful on both counts, relief, sans smoke/colds. best, - walk
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| 118 | TacoJohn
ID: 590291817
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 16:17
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I didn't read this whole thread but nowhere in the article does it say that marijuana presents a higher risk of lung cancer than tobacco.
It's saying marijuana presents a higher risk than nothing. As for the fact that a joint is worse for you than a cigarette everyone knows that, but cigarettes are consumed in much greater quantity.
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| 119 | walk
Dude
ID: 32928238
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 16:31
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TacoJohn. Welcome. Good points on the details there. You must've been straight when you read (sorry, spirit of the thread)... ;-)
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| 120 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 17:34
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MJD
I wish you the best.
To me the biggest shame for this country is that there are people like you, who desperately need this medication, who risk imprisonment because of the stupidity of the Feds...including Bill Clinton who asked the Feds to enforce laws against med cannabis users.
In Sf I was shown how to get a "prescription" for cannabis... "just say you have this or that".
I refused.
I want the people with the true health issues to get the care they need and not have the liars jeopardize that much needed relief.
Fortunately, the USA is a free enough country where the consequences would likely be limited if you were caught....unlike other countries where one joint will get you 4 years.
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| 121 | holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 18:10
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I saw a medicinal marijuana vending machine on the news just a couple days ago. a VENDING MACHINE. omg. It actually had selections for different types. If that vending machine were here in Bible Belt, Oklahoma for just one day... well, the line would be so long the damn thing would probably be empty before I got to use it.
This would be a good time to observe a moment of silence for the great Harry Anslinger (May 20, 1892 – November 14, 1975), Commissioner of the Treasury Department's Federal Bureau of Narcotics from 1930-1962. Here are some great quotes to remember him by:
"There are 100,000 total marijuana smokers in the US, and most are Negroes, Hispanics, Filipinos, and entertainers. Their Satanic music, jazz, and swing, result from marijuana use. This marijuana causes white women to seek sexual relations with Negroes, entertainers, and any others."
"...the primary reason to outlaw marijuana is its effect on the degenerate races."
"Marijuana is an addictive drug which produces in its users insanity, criminality, and death."
"Reefer makes darkies think they're as good as white men."
"Marihuana leads to pacifism and communist brainwashing"
"You smoke a joint and you're likely to kill your brother."
"Marijuana is the most violence-causing drug in the history of mankind."
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| 122 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 18:47
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saw an article on those too Holt. They work on a pre-paid premise AND require a finger-print ID verification before dispensing a single joint; whiwch they will only do once every 24 hours. (IIRC from the article.) Seems they are net-worked, so getting a joint from one machine, will invalidate all machines for the immediately following 24 hrs.
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| 123 | holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 19:11
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Interesting. The one I saw also had a guard. Seems like an extravagant setup. I mean, for all the hassle of doing what it takes to be able to purchase from the machine, why not just go buy it the normal way. Or better yet, put these machines in every city in America and allow open access to all. Sorry, I can't resist.
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| 124 | Texas Flood
ID: 37082014
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 19:13
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Personally I think if you smoke anything you're a complete fool. I
watched my sister die of lung cancer at age 48, it's not pretty. Of
course things like this only happen to other people, so if you
smoke feel free to continue.
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| 125 | biliruben
ID: 4911361723
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 19:15
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Edit:
You can attempt to control for these issues in the analysis but there are always going to be correlates of unhealthy living that are associated with case-control status as well as lung cancer pot smoking that you are not going to be able to assess.
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| 126 | holt
ID: 360131020
Fri, Feb 01, 2008, 19:32
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Texas Flood, sorry to hear about your sister. Very unfortunate. The thing is, people do dangerous things every day. Driving, junk food, crossing the street, for example. I also wouldn't advise anyone to use pot heavily. Moderation/caution in most everything is good.
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| 127 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sat, Feb 02, 2008, 14:58
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Texas sorry to hear that. My father has many health problems from cigarettes (Throat cancer 10 years ago, heart attack, numbness in legs due to lack of oxygen due to damaged lungs) but somehow has made it to 76.
I do think you are right to point out the potential danger and it behoves all of us to consider it and monitor our bad habits.
The vaporizer seems at least like a step in the right direction...moderation likely being the most important key.
I do wish someone would take on a large study of the effects once and for all so we know the deal.
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| 128 | walk
ID: 141365
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:03
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Got the herbalaire a few days back. Bill Maher is on right now...the timing is excellent. Smooooooooooooooooth and effective show he has on right now.
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| 129 | Boldwin
ID: 3013265
Fri, Feb 08, 2008, 23:34
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Where will they ever find the guinee pigs?
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| 130 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Sun, Feb 10, 2008, 15:03
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Where will they ever find the guinee pigs?
Have you tried it much Baldone?
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| 131 | Jag
ID: 5112883
Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 05:18
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Bill Maher is becoming a crazy fanatic. He tells everyone how bad legal drugs are and then defends to the hilt, illegal ones. The guy has lost touch with reality.
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| 132 | walk
ID: 221481011
Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 06:16
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Jag, please, stop being intentionally simplistic. Why don't you raise this point directly to Maher during "overtime" and see if you are satisfied with his response..? You know he is against our medical model, which prescribes Rx as cures for disease instead of folks practicing good overall wellness (preventative), while he is for recreational drugs which are just freakin fun. There are many ways to have fun, and he chooses weed.
Without your bogus outrage, I do see the inherent inconsistency in his view as smoking anything cannot be considered "healthy." However, what's more important is the overall point of how pharma companies get their way with the gov't in "pushing" a "fix it" model of prescription drugs as the chief means for folks to maintain wellness, all the while the fast food nation industry pushes incredibly fatty, salty and malnutritious food, tobacco is still legal, and the Rx drugs themsleves, overprescribed and mixed, are what helps cause or at least contribute to illness and disease (coronary heart disease, lung cancer, diabetes, etc.) in the first place
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| 133 | Jag
ID: 5112883
Mon, Feb 11, 2008, 23:04
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I watch his show manly to see how the enemy is doing. He has gone from a fairly moderate satorialist to a nut job. I love it when he talks about how people stay sick because they take medicine that relieves symptons and by not cough and sneezing we are keeping all the germs inside us.
I feel a cold coming on. Can you pull my finger Walk? I need to release some bad mojo from my system.
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