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Subject: Working Long Hours
Posted by: Boxman
- [571114225] Tue, Apr 01, 2008, 19:44
I'm sure a lot of you have noticed this and this isn't anything new, but I'd like to have a discussion about working long hours.
I'm not against it so long as its for a purpose. Every profession has their busy season, it's just part of the turf. I do it just as much as the next guy. What I'd like to figure out is the managerial "why" behind it.
What is it though that has long hours as some sort of a dick measuring contest? To me it seems like we're celebrating inefficiency and lack of management care towards their human resources.
I CAN DO MORE WITH LESS! WHERE'S MY BONUS! LOOK AT ME I'M HERE ON SATURDAY! I CARE ABOUT MY FAMILY LESS THAN YOU DO!
I try and tell people that working an extra 2 hours a day doesn't make anyone a hero if they're barely in the office on time and spend a good amount bulls#itting with their coworkers. Yet it all falls on deaf ears. I try and stress quality hours instead of long hours to people and they don't get it.
Are managers and employers so blind to what goes on between 8-5 that all they notice is what happens before or after those hours?
While I'm at it, why does staying late seem to get more street cred than coming in early?
I'd love to get your guys feedback on this. |
| 1 | The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 00:01
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When you can't clearly measure outputs, inputs get measured. As more of our work moves away from widget production into information processing, it's too easy to look at inputs that can easily be measured like "time in the office" and equate that with "performance".
There's other reasons that add to this, but that's the first that comes to mind.
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| 2 | Bond, James Bond
Sustainer
ID: 04352469
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 00:34
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Check out this article!
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| 3 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 01:10
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While I'm at it, why does staying late seem to get more street cred than coming in early?
I think it depends on your supervisor. If he comes in early and leaves on time, best to mimic. If he rolls in at 9Am and puts in later hours, he/she doesn't notice what time you come in, they notice what time you leave.
One technique if your boss comes in late is to have several emails waiting in his/her box from you that morning. Try and find a couple of things to write to him/her about and do it the moment you arrive at work.
They will notice the 7:30 AM email and therefore start time.
Then if you think there's an issue with you leaving on time at the end of the day, ask for a meeting to point out your early start time compared to others. (After you sent these emails for a month) and ask for his/her thoughts.
Yes some people get more done in 8 hours then others, are more efficient, and don't need the overtime to "get the job done". Unfortunately it seems to be up to any given supervisors whim whether or not they notice.
In my last job no one in the office was able to get their work load done in 8 hours, I mean no one. Our boss was out the door at 6PM everyday though so most people followed that lead. (8 AM - 6PM 1/2 hour lunch in office)
I don't have a family and would sometimes stay late and occasionally come in for a few hours on a Saturday to catch up (Although it wasn't expected).
I could feel the resentment of my peers who had families. I was actually confronted on it a few times...(You make us look bad).
It wasn't a case of "not getting my work done efficiently". It was typical corporate overload. No one was keeping up with the workload. I also found it more efficient to really crank some things out when the phone wasn't constantly ringing.
In the end it seems to me the most important thing is an open and honest dialog with your supervisor about the issue. If you can't have that type of a dialog, maybe it's the wrong job.
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| 4 | Boldwin
ID: 733521
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 05:58
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I know this is gonna have a bit of a strange flavor coming from but it's all about finding your biorythm whatever that is exactly. How does your energy level work? For some maybe it is Steady Eddy and tho they never burn brightly they doggedly outwork the rest. For some it's all about getting to work 3 hours early and before noon they might as well go home because their body is telling them they are finished. For me usually I get more done in the last 3+1/2 hours than most can do in a full day and the next day I am dreading to go back to work remembering how hard I pushed yesterday and will push myself today. Then again I can be the guy who enjoys pulling an all-nighter and having the operation in full gear when everyone else shows up. I'm getting a little concerned that these off the wall energy management strategies will still work when I'm older.
One thing I am sure of. I gotta be self-employed. My energy level doesn't click on when the timecard says it should.
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| 5 | Tree
ID: 2033024
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 06:41
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my boss works insane hours. mostly because he's up early because his two kids get up early, and because he lives 10 minutes from the office.
he's in between 5:30 and 6 am, and leaves around 5:30 pm. i don't think he expects those hours of anyone, especially with the company's "official" hours being 9 to 6.
that being said, i know he appreciates that i'm in between 8:15 and 8:30 every am (and leave around 5:45 pm), as well as the fact i check my email in the morning, and a couple times in the evening.
i moved into this position about 3 1/2 years ago, when he handpicked me. pretty early on, i saw his disdain when i would be at my desk at just past 9, and no one else was in the department until 9:15 or 9:30, and slowly but surely over the last few years, every one of those people were replaced. he still makes a face if he walks past at 9:01 and someone isn't there. :o)
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| 6 | sarge33rd
ID: 4011291810
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 08:59
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You want thankless hours where not only are you not recognized for putting them in, but you are fully expected...to put them in? Try management at a car lot 8am to nearly midnight 5-6 days week is not out of the norm) or for even more intrusion into your personal "time", real estate sales.
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| 7 | rockafellerskank
Dude
ID: 27652109
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 10:55
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I envy the Walmart workers. They rarely put in more than 24-28 hours per week.
:)
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| 8 | holt
ID: 341542412
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 12:15
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I worked for a compositor for a couple of years that just worked us to the bone. 10 hr days plus full day Saturdays. It was a miserable. I doubt that we produced much more than what we would have in a 40 hr week.
I can't see how it was worth it for the company. All that overtime, and all the new employees they had to train to replace those of us who left. I quit on them abruptly when it came to the point that I had to decide between my job and my marriage.
That company is gone now, and most of the type of work they did is done in India now. Wonder how many hours they work over there.
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| 9 | walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 12:31
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I can comment on several fronts, being an organizational development consultant who supports investment bankers.
Investment bankers routinely work long hours, often till the wee hours of the morning and on weekends. This schedule more often falls on the junior folks, and is sometimes nothing more than a rite of passage, but more often, just the way it is due to the intense competition, client expectations and need to generate fees and repeat business.
A lot of extra hour work will be driven by one's manager. If the manager does it and expects the team to do it, then it's going to be part of that litle sub-culture. Extra hours is sometimes driven by the individual, who has that extreme work ethic and often no other hobbies or interests to fall back on. And then, I guess, there are folks who need to work long hours because they don't have the skills to work more efficiently.
I don't think that a majority of the long-hour workers are doing it to show-off, but I do think a fair amount work long hours because they don't have other interests and their work becomes their life. Otherwise, a lot of folks have to work long hours because it's the nature of the biz or manager expectations.
I try to work efficiently and quickly to avoid long hours. I hate missing deadlines, so if I do have to work long hours, I will, but if I see a pattern developing, then I will speak to my boss. In HR, bosses more often than not "get it," and also have families and realize what we do will not cause changes in stock prices. So, routine late working is not the norm. Yet, there are some managers and some HR professionals who are driven or who cannot say 'no,' or who want to get ahead.
My wife is a management consultant and sometimes, but not more often than not, she has to work late hours due to changing client demands. As a consultant, her work is analogous to the investment bankers I support in that they are both revenue generators. If the clients who provide the revenue change the priorities or deadlines, and are willing to pay for it, the consultant, the banker, has really no choice but to work the wee hours to get it done.
Capitalism. It's a big part of this equation.
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| 10 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 12:51
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Things are considerably different in the legal field. I have worked as a contract attorney in the large law firms in Seattle where billable hours was the only way to earn money. These firms have showers, locker rooms and cafeterias for a reason, there's no need to leave the building. While that culture was not for me, at least you saw a result for your long hours, your client paid the firm $200 or more for each hour.
I don't understand the mindset of the standard American business and I completely agree with your sentiment:To me it seems like we're celebrating inefficiency and lack of management care towards their human resources. I believe that many people have responsibilities that require about 40 hours a week to complete and they would complete them during the regular work week if it were not for those insipid meetings. I HATE meetings and I am convinced that 95% of them are utterly useless. I am so grateful that my job averages four meetings a year, and I let my feelings known even at those short intrusions.
My buddy works at Intel and he told me he's leaving for Sacramento for two weeks. What's he doing there? "Face-to-face" for eight hours a day, then relaying what was covered to the people in Malaysia for an hour and a half that evening. Good God! If you can cram the whole day into 1.5 hours, why not spend 1.5 hours doing it? And Sacramento, reminds me of Kevin Calabro, the Sonics announcer, mocking the River City, "ah, yes, romantic strolls along the American River. Horrible traffic for a cow town..." Ugh!
Thankfully my office is a lot like a bunch of rhinoceros, we all have our own caseload, we don't work together as a team, I am responsible for my caseload and the boss doesn't care how we do it or where we do it. I go to the gym at lunch and home to eat 4 days a week. Some weeks are easy, when I have a trial it can be quite stressful. I like it, though I wish I had five weeks European-style vacation. I'm not interested in working myself to death.
I could see my competitive jones getting worked up if I worked as a trader on a stock or commodity exchange floor. Simple rules: do well, get paid, high stress, but it's easy to measure your success. I'd burn out after a few years, I'm sure.
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| 11 | Boxman
ID: 337352111
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 13:13
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Zen: What I do to shorten meeting times is have people stand up. I call a meeting about a given topic and we meet in my area and I'm already standing up and I just politely inform others to do the same.
I had read a while back that a study was done on meetings and that the same productivity occured but the time of the meetings shrank by 2/3.
Now if someone is presenting, then that rule goes out the window, but if it's a bulls#it session we stand up.
You guys brought up billable hours and I wanted to add on to that. I'm in Business Development and I frequent the accounting department from time to time to see how vendor invoices are being handled or the status of a contract. I came to learn that the Controller had a public accounting background where the more billable hours you had the better. This guy got institutionalized to that fact and now puts in crazy hours even when it's totally unneccesary according to other managers. This then trickles down to his staff.
I also wonder what impact there is on hours if someone is the sole breadwinner for the house.
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| 12 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 13:41
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What I do to shorten meeting times is have people stand up.
I like it.
I've also heard of a simple program you use on a laptop for meetings. It asks to input everyone's salary who is in attendance, then you click "go" and on the screen is a large "Meeting Cost Meter", a ticker tallying how much this meeting is costing. I would hope that when people looked at the meter, they would realize what they are costing the company and speed things up. Never heard of anyone ever using it, though.
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| 13 | biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 14:46
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Walk - You're and OD consultant?!? My ma's an OD consultant, or was. Weird. I thought she was the only one.
My guess is those who work late don't really like their family very much. Or at least they like their cushy, quiet office more. Me - I show up late, leave early, spend as much time as possible with my wife and great kid, and hope I don't get fired. They don't pay me enough to neglect my family.
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| 14 | Great One
ID: 4231419
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 15:13
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My friends mother was an extra on America's Most Wanted. She just sat there pretending to be on the phone during filming.
She did this for nearly 10 years.
Beat that for an awesome, random, rare job!!! :)
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| 15 | leggestand
Leader
ID: 451036518
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 15:32
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My guess is those who work late don't really like their family very much. Or at least they like their cushy, quiet office more. Me - I show up late, leave early, spend as much time as possible with my wife and great kid, and hope I don't get fired. They don't pay me enough to neglect my family.
Bili - the above is a fairly poor blanket statement that takes pot shots on anyone who works a ton of hours.
I work 60 hours a week in commercial lending so that my wife doesn't need to work and can care for our 6 month old at home. I work 60 hours a week, so, that when I go on my semi annual vacations, I can really go on vacation to wherever in the world I want. I work 60 hours a week, so, that my child (or children in the future) will have something to fall back on if something unfortunate happens to me or my wife. I work 60 hours a week so that I have the option of retiring by the time I am 50, so, that I can spend as much time with my family as I want and still live the rest of my days comfortably.
I don't work 60 hours a week for any of the reasons you mentioned.
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| 16 | biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 15:44
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You're right, Leg. Sorry. I should have included a qualifier such as "some" or "many". Obviously there are plenty of people who absolutely need to work 100 hrs a week, and there are others who's priorities are such that they choose to work hard so they can better enjoy time with their families next month or 10 years from now.
I didn't mean to insult.
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| 17 | biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 15:48
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If I were a commercial lender, I would probably be working hard right now too, btw. Work while their is work. The CRE market seems to cycling down, so you might be having early dinners with you tot whether you desire it or not in the near future.
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| 19 | leggestand
Leader
ID: 451036518
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 16:00
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bili - Thanks for quantifying. You may have caught me at the wrong moment, but I wanted to make sure you really didn't mean that about all people who work a lot, because I did feel slightly offended. I actually think most people fall into my mindset if they are working a lot, but that doesn't mean some people don't fit into your statement.
As for the commercial lending bit, I am actually not completely tied to CMBS, as my arm of the bank is in agency lending (Fannie and Freddie). With that being the only game in town for the past 6 months (and with no conduits to take business for at least the next 12 months), we actually just closed our best 1st quarter ever (20 years). And 2nd quarter is looking like much of the same.
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| 20 | walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 17:08
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bili baby, you crack me up. "The only one"...? Anyone at the end of the day who does training & development can bill themselves as an OD consultant...but we vary in terms of working internally, externally, and our educational backgrounds. My wife and I are industrial/organizational psychologists, with doctorates, so that sorta makes this exactly what we are and what we do. However, she is an external consultant with a firm that does exactly this (leadership assessment, executive coaching, 360 FB, etc.), and I do that same, but am a dedicated resource for a big investment bank.
Box, not sure where you work, but be careful about the standing thing...you are potentially putting yourself at risk for a harassment charge if some folks believe you are doing this to embarrass or punish others publicly for doing their jobs. I don't mean to lecture, but I work closely with the folks who make the employment policies based on employment laws and know this stuff to do some degree. There are other ways to get what you want (reduce meeting time).
SZ, you're a lawyer, you know this...No way a manager can publicly post compensation information, for whatever reason, but particularly as a way to measure a costs associated with time-spent. Salary info is condfidential. Any managers that disclose such info would be disciplined and potentially termninated in any firm I know of.
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| 21 | walk
ID: 181472714
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 17:11
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Eeeesh, I don't like the way my first paragraph came off there, bili. I did not mean to imply that one (e.g. your mom) needs a ph.d. to be an OD consultant; one does not. I meant to say that by nature of what I do, and what I was educated in, it's my job. Sorry about that.
Regarding workplace harassment, here's an interesting article about workplace "bullying" that just came out last week in the NYT. The definition of bullying that some folks want to pu into law is very broad, broader than harassment, and could easily include some of the examples mentioned above:
Workplace Bullying
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| 22 | Seattle Zen
ID: 49112418
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 17:46
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Walk
A ticker with a dollar amount doesn't disclose what an individual is making unless there are only two people in your meeting and you are bright enough to add/subtract and divide.
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| 23 | nerveclinic
ID: 105222
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 17:52
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Zen I believe that many people have responsibilities that require about 40 hours a week to complete and they would complete them during the regular work week if it were not for those insipid meetings. I HATE meetings and I am convinced that 95% of them are utterly useless.
While I firmly agree with the second half of your statement concerning meetings, I worked for a fortune 100 company most of my career.
I can tell you they purposely gave use workloads that no human could do properly in 50-60 hours and told us we were only expected to work 45 hours a week...nudge nudge wink wink.
It's the corporate game...overload and see what the employee will sacrifice. The game they play is never let the workload reach a point where anyone could actually catch up. If they do, lay someone off and add the workload around the office.
That's my experience anyway, and by God it's what made America the great juggernaut it was...until the last few years as we head down the sub prime toilet.
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| 24 | biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 18:06
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Heh, Walk. No insult taken or assumed. Actually you are identically trained. PhD in organizational psychology, iirc. She simply choose to work in manufacturing. Probably investment banks are more lucrative! She still does a bit of consulting, but is largely retired.
Obviously kidding that I thought she was the only one, I just hadn't ever heard the term except around her and her colleagues. Small world... er... TSN. ;)
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| 25 | weykool
ID: 2842717
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 18:09
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I was doing so well working efficiently until I took a break to read this thread.
Now I am behind in my work, will need to work late to catch up and probably get divorced because I am now married to my job.
Thanks a lot.
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| 26 | The Beezer
Dude
ID: 191202817
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 18:13
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I work as a manager in IT so I see a lot of folks putting in long hours, particularly with cell phone, Web access to corporate mail, and Blackberry usage allowing 24/7 connectivity. I was offered use of a Blackberry and turned it down flat when I was promoted - I'm not quite ready to be that connected to everything as I tend to get obsessive about stuff like that. Maybe in a couple of years I'll be responsible enough to use one without alienating everyone I know.
I'm expected to put in 42.5 hours per week and usually hit between there and 45 (plus on call duty that isn't terribly strenuous most of the time). I see folks at my level putting in 60+ hours per week and I have a hard time putting a good face on it as they don't seem to get that level of results. I see a lot of issues with wasting big hunks of time and being inefficient in handling items like email, recurring tasks, etc. Then again, I tend to subscribe to the views of Cali and Jody regarding Results-Oriented Work Environments.
I always liked the story of what the kid said to his parent who kept bringing home work and staying late at the office - "maybe you should be moved to a slower class". Doesn't always apply, of course, as legge pointed out, but that's my default mindset.
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| 27 | walk
ID: 182532719
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 20:06
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What a coincidence, bili. Same background. Can I ask where your mom went to grad school? We may have some overlap in our education (me, Va Tech; mrs, Purdue).
SZ: I see. I was under the impression from #12, that actual salaries were posted.
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| 28 | biliruben
ID: 33258140
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 20:12
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University of Buffalo. Probably not a lot of prestige factor there with org. psych. groupies.
I do recall some sweet hallways for skateboarding and feeding in punch-cards for her dissertation analysis.
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| 29 | Weykool
Leader
ID: 41750315
Wed, Apr 02, 2008, 20:35
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Walk:
I know most companies have a policy to keep salaries confidential but I dont believe it is a violation of a law if they didnt.
Wouldnt all the pro sports teams be in violation as everyone's contract is almost a matter of public record?
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| 30 | walk
ID: 182532719
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 05:51
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Weykool. Not sure if it violates law (probably yes in Europe, but no in the U.S.), but it would very likely violate company policy and that's the more important issue. IF a manager made salaries public, he'd likely get fired. However, SZ has indicated this little software thingie does not do that...
bili...I was thankfully just after the punchcards. I went to a similar state school, Albany, for my undergrad, and we had punchcards then. Oy.
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| 31 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 06:20
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Zen: I've also heard of a simple program you use on a laptop for meetings. It asks to input everyone's salary who is in attendance, then you click "go" and on the screen is a large "Meeting Cost Meter", a ticker tallying how much this meeting is costing. I would hope that when people looked at the meter, they would realize what they are costing the company and speed things up. Never heard of anyone ever using it, though.
I think if the word "salary" was removed in favor of "overhead rate" perhaps that would be a winner. All departments should have an annual Meeting Budget and be held accountable for it just like other expenses.
When they allocate resources to a project there is accountability in the form of budgets. Meetings are exactly that too so why not track the costs?
Walk: be careful about the standing thing...you are potentially putting yourself at risk for a harassment charge if some folks believe you are doing this to embarrass or punish others publicly for doing their jobs
I'm confused by this because I don't take that tone in meetings. I've never been asked about it, but if I do I'll just be honest.
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| 32 | biliruben
ID: 48359221
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 09:03
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Yeah went to Binghamton undergrad myself. Class of 89. Fickin'
bargain. 900 a semester, iirc. And a decent education. Not
Cornell, but decent.
All the folks I knew from Albany were completely nuts.
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| 33 | walk
ID: 181472714
Thu, Apr 03, 2008, 12:06
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Box, regarding salaries. Yes, budget meetings to talk about salaries and bonuses are quite common. However, in these meetings, the salaries of the folks IN the room are not discussed, just of the folks underneath in the org chart. So, it's about publicly disclosing the compensation of someone to folks not in a need-to-know situation to which I was referring (which is a no-no).
In terms of the standing thing, use your judgment, which needs to unfortunately be tilted a tad towards "avoiding litigation." It's unfortunate, but a very salient part of our culture. As long as your standing thing is sorta meant in the context of humor and to make a subtle point about "this meeting is taking a bit too long, donchya agree?," then you are likely cool, but I have to admit, in my 20 years of working in big corp office environments (and these are not like dundler mifflin and such where the norms will be different, but for big fortune 100 banks with lotsa rules/policies and HR and Legal departments), such a meeting behavior would be considered most unusual.
bili-boobalah, Binghampton, eh? Just a coupla hours away. Class of 1984 for me at SUNY Albany, so you and I are closer in age than me and your mom. I got my ph.d in 1989.
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| 34 | Boxman
ID: 571114225
Tue, Apr 15, 2008, 13:25
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This seems to have a ton of information that I've been looking for. I recommend any of you interested in this thread take a look at it. I'd be curious to know what you think.
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