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Subject: Welfare State Destroys Hope and Freedom
Posted by: Boldwin
- [564353010] Thu, Jun 03, 2010, 11:38
Britain's experience presages our own coming loss of class mobility, hope and opportunity. |
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| 52 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 21:53
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Fire them.
But not on the word of a student with a grudge.
Most any institution of learning has a process for removing bad teachers. Admittedly, sometimes it can take a while.
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| 53 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Wed, Apr 22, 2015, 21:53
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I noticed Baldwin and Bean did not jump to their support
Good luck with that, how quickly we can go from there is one bad apple to throwing the whole bunch out will truly surprise you though.
I might be able to tell a story about how some guy nearly got his ass kicked when he started bad mouthing teachers with blanket statements, in front of me and my elementary school teacher wife though.
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| 54 | Gator
ID: 27337811
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 00:29
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I have a ton of respect for good teachers and believe they are underpaid. The problem here is the chair and the Dean knew these people were incompetent but did not bother to act.
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| 55 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 06:40
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I can tell you from personal experience that the great teachers are pretty rare. I can tell you from personal experience that there are at least as many toxic teachers as helpful ones.
I can tell you that 'the process of removing bad teachers' is more difficult and unlikely than removing a federal employee who watches porn six hours a day 'on the job'.
I can tell you that as soon as they circulated that meme that teachers were underpaid noble souls who had taken a cut in pay to become public servants making much less than their counterparts in the private sector...
...suddenly the teacher pension demands exploded and the nexus of powerful teacher unions and corrupt vote selling democRAT politicians destroyed their state's solvency.
I'll never forget the striking teachers marching for higher pay in the deepest darkest days of the 2008 depression.
Bless their little caring and sharing hearts.
Government is something we do together...darwinian deathmatch to determine the greediest machivelian rat race winner apparently.
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| 56 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 06:48
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And any time you hear that oleaginous Ann Richards voice telling you 'it's for the children', it's time to get your hand on your wallet and your back against the wall.
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| 57 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 07:30
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As I was saying, Gator. Good luck with that, how quickly we can go from there is one bad apple to throwing the whole bunch out will truly surprise you though.
Boldwin, exactly how much should a teacher (or any other person for that matter) be paid? I don't know what you do for a living, but maybe we should be questioning whether or not your wage should be reduced to minimum as well.
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| 58 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:44
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Exactly. Pay them well, hold them accountable, and better ones will come and stick with it.
It is a simple lesson of capitalism that the Right seems to ignore whenever we are talking about tax dollars as the source of the pay. But capitalism doesn't care where the dollars come from.
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| 59 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:56
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Yeah, when we actually have open competition between public and private education. When bad teachers actually are identified and fired. THEN you can talk about capitalist lessons.
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| 60 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 08:57
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And when we have voucher systems in place to allow poor kids to escape the soul sucking miasma that is public education, THEN you can talk about the poor whom you claim to care about.
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| 61 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:18
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Bean
Less than they make in Illinois - "With two or three pensions, some are making as much as half a million dollars [yearly - B] in retirement pay". - Said the new republican governor of a blue state to get elected.
B - They not only cycle thru three tours to get three pensions, administrators also pad the last five years salary which blows up their pension benefits.
Teachers actually collect pensions. Workers in the private sector are routinely cheated out of their pensions an outrageous percentage of the time.
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| 62 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:19
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Just for fun take a look at cost of living vs teacher wages state by state.
It was while my wife was on strike in Hawaii that some idiot thought it would be appropriate to mouth off about teachers. I let him run his mouth for awhile then pointed out to him that my wife was a teacher and that perhaps he should slow his roll on BS generalities.
He then decided it would be a good idea to throw insults at my wife whom he had just met. Things did not end well for him, as he found himself apologizing with his face planted in the bar. Its unfortunate that so many people feel its acceptable to disrespect our mostly female self-sacrificing teachers.
His problems were no doubt rooted in his own childhood difficulties with authority figures, particularly a teacher. Couple that with the fact that his inability to properly raise his children resulted in one with behavior problems in school that in-turn resulted in poor performance. It had to be the faceless teacher's fault, right?
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| 63 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:30
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It isn't about "open competition between public and private education." It is about not intentionally being stupid about squelching pay and benefits for public school teachers and then being surprised (surprised!) at the lower quality work, as though the rules of capitalism are suspended for public workers.
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| 64 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:37
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Bean
No, my problem with teachers is that they hold an invincible hand when negotiating with corrupt Illinois politicians and it has to stop. It's bankrupted my state. It's driving out any person or business who can find the exit from this failed state.
Thanks for the physical threat.
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| 65 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:39
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PD
Tell me how you reconcile...
1) "With two or three pensions, some are making as much as half a million dollars [yearly - B] in retirement pay".
2) intentionally being stupid about squelching pay and benefits
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| 66 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:45
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Teachers actually collect pensions. Workers in the private sector are routinely cheated out of their pensions an outrageous percentage of the time.
So, are you suggesting that we should not honor teachers' pensions? Since we were forced to move frequently, my wife only became eligible in one state, Colorado. The Pension system there is PERA, which replaces social security. So, are you saying that Colorado residents should vote to take away PERA from its residents? You want my military pension too? Be careful, I have been trained to shoot.
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| 67 | biliruben
ID: 28420307
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:46
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We've had open competition between public and private for many years. Private is more expensive with equal or worse outcomes.
Unless you get to cherry pick the smartest kids.
We'll be hearing about the Caddy driving welfare queens soon, I suppose.
Baldwin's life is one repeating meme from 50 years ago.
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| 68 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:48
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Just for fun take a look at cost of living vs teacher wages state by state. - Bean
I've read that the average family has lost $11,000 yearly income since Obama took office. Teachers are welcome to share our pain, thank you very much big government for all your 'help' and welcome to Obama's worker's paradise.
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| 69 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:50
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We've had open competition between public and private for many years - bili
We will when we get an honest voucher system and not before.
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| 70 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:54
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If you look at the chart I linked, you will see that Illinois is not the norm, nor is Hawaii. Our experiences are about as radically different as they can be when it comes to teacher compensation.
It's a local issue.
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| 71 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:54
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Oh and BTW, while we are on that subject, you can thank Obama for squandering trillions on his public sector union buddies to make sure they got spared the worst of the recession/depression while the rest of us absorbed all the pain.
I wonder what a true stimulus would have done to pull us out of the last 6.5 years.
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| 72 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 09:58
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Illinois is not the norm - Bean
Thank God you don't live in Illinois.
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| 73 | biliruben
ID: 81382416
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:10
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You don't have even the smallest clue what you are talking about. The Obama presidency marked the first where the public sector jobs continued to decline deep into a recession. Far after private sector was recovering, the public sector was and still is serving as a drag on our economy, because of lack of jobs and adequate funding.
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| 74 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:13
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are you suggesting...? - Bean
I'm suggesting that FDR was right. Public sector unions are a ludicrous government conflict of interest and should never have been legalized.
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| 75 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 10:32
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You don't have even the smallest clue what you are talking about.
80% went to preserve public sector union jobs. The union dues were then recycled to get more tax dollars from the next election cycle syphoned off to the Dem party machine.
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| 76 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 13:29
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Look very, very carefully at posts 242 and 243.
http://rotoguru1.com/cgi-bin/read.pl?board=pol&thread=3688#1429804340
Then say, "D'oh!"
And perhaps, "sorry" for being duped by spiniots and wasting my time.
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| 77 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 14:57
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I am pretty sure we would all agree that there comes a point where the people must rise up against their tyrannical rulers. The question is when is it appropriate, and when, after organizing, have the people now become the tyrants.
When you figure that out, we'd love to know the answer. So please do share with us your plan for eliminating the need to resolve these two diametrically opposed values with one all encompassing stratagem. Until you illuminate all of us, we'll just have to respect that everyone has the right to defend their economic "rights".
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| 78 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 15:27
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I guess we'll all achieve equality when the entire system crashes. I guess that's what the 'progressive' thot leaders are actually aiming for. Your side has it all figured out, Bean. Not to worry. No need to worry how we'll ever pay those pensions. We won't.
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| 79 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 15:41
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I agree, a number of states are not adequately funding pensions. The solution is pretty clear. Regulate and insist the states fully fund pensions.
Washington is fully funded, and actually has been moving towards 403Bs for most of the state jobs. It's pretty hard to get any sort of defined benefit plan anymore.
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| 80 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:29
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<78> You get to the root of the matter when you realize that nobody knows what a dollar is worth, both today and in the future and nobody knows what an hour of labor is worth for every task either.
That is the argument for capitalism, we can not settle this between us, so let the market determine it. Broken down in this way it seems simple and glorious, but the devil is in the details.
Eventually we discover the contract as a viable instrument for enforcing agreements and applying risk to one party or the other. As a society, we have agreed that contracts should be enforced or we have no society. We have also agreed that both parties to the contract should be equals in negotiating the contract. We've created arbitration when we reach impasses. It's all become so messy, no wonder none of us wants to know about the problems that people in North Dakota are having, we live in South Dakota after all, screw those hicks, let them kill each other.
Do we need to discuss this any further? This is where the rule of law takes us my friend. Unless you got a better idea.
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| 81 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:40
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I have a friend in city govt that is relying on his pension in retirement. Even though they are flush now, a whack job like Baldwin could get elected, renig on the contract, and he's eating catfood in his "golden years." I'll take the cash in my 401K, thank you very much. The most they can probably screw you with that is change the tax code. They won't steal it wholesale.
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| 82 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:48
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One thing I am sure all of us can agree on is Alex Rodriguez's contract.
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| 83 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:49
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Got an opinion on Steve Nash?
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| 84 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:50
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How bout Cardale Jones? He'd be getting paid if he was a pro.
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| 85 | biliruben
ID: 561162511
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:52
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It's 5 O'clock somewhere.
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| 86 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 16:53
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Then there is Timmy. Making sacrifices for the greater good, that's got a to be worth some kind of currency.
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| 87 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 17:13
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Liberals spending money we don't have and never will have are the ones responsible for those pensions and SS payments that will evaporate.
But at least they bought some votes with our futures, so there's that.
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| 88 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Thu, Apr 23, 2015, 17:24
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Well, they may tell you they bought votes with the futures of the rich, but that's an argument we'll save for another day. Robin Hood in reverse is seldom popular unless you can find a way of disguising it.
Vote for me and I'll set you free. Two chickens in every pot.
Headed over to my buddy's house to watch the Cavs kick some Celtic arse. The world's problems will have to wait until tomorrow.
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| 89 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 05:04
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| 90 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 10:32
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lmao. how old is that photo?
you are the living embodiment of a cartoon character.
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| 91 | biliruben
ID: 81382416
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 10:54
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In most every American city, a transformation is occurring, which is likely completely invisible to those who are still stuck in the 60s and 70s. as Baldwin's photo demonstrates.
The center cities are booming, with liberal ideas about investment in infrastructure, focusing on the family instead of spending hours in a car every day, taking care of the less fortunate and improving quality of life for all. The "ghettos" are appearing in far off ex-urbs and suburbs, which are often dominated by tax-cutting red politicians.
But if your eyes closed 40 years ago, you won't be able to see the transformation.
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| 92 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 11:36
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Cleveland, a dying rust belt city, is trying to do exactly what you describe bili. I've been here a month now, house sitting for my friend who lives in a house adjacent to one such gentrification project.
The problem is there is no tax base to maintain the roads, let alone invest in infrastructure. What taxes are collected are wasted on unnecessary building projects that just enrich the corrupt. So, all people can do is buy old homes and fix them up, buy old store fronts, and re-purpose them and create artsy-fartsy stuff out of factories that once provided good paying jobs.
Dan Gilbert has brought many Quicken Loans jobs here to Cleveland, but he takes as much out as he brings in, as he has also opened a casino in the heart of downtown to take back any contribution he may have made.
Hope for real jobs that we enjoyed in the 60s and 70s is all but gone here, as stiff competition for minimum wage jobs is the norm. Cleveland is not as depressed as Detroit, but I can tell you that its not optimistic here, and the despair is not just due to poor performance of sports franchises.
It's absurd that a once mighty manufacturing hub has been reduced to being simply the overseer of BP America, a few banks (Quicken and Key) and a large insurance company (Progressive). The downtown office buildings are all being converted to apartments now because they aren't needed to house businesses any longer. Ohio's greatest export has been educated people for decades now, and that has been driven primarily by our national policy of exporting jobs in favor of lower consumer prices.
So, while I am sure there is plenty of reason for the people of Seattle to rejoice in their prosperity, your optimism is not universally shared.
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| 93 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 11:39
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You're in Cleveland? Sweet.
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| 94 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 12:05
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I grew up here PD, I have tickets to the CAVs playoffs. Its why I am here, though its been fun getting reacquainted with my home town and old friends. I still have a few family members here too that weren't forced to scatter across the country in search of work. Though, like many who've remained, a couple of them just wont leave, even though they cant find adequate employment here. Some people just need a big boot up their a$$e$ to do anything for their own good.
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| 95 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 13:21
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I'm from Cleveland myself. My family though is out here (NEPA) for my son's First Communion, though I hope to bring the family out there once or twice this summer.
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| 96 | Bean
ID: 14147911
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 13:39
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I'm staying near Detroit and W 76th, just down the street from where that black kid got killed at Cudell Recreation by the cop, PD.
I grew up at W 130th and Brookpark, John Marshall High School... Our mascot was the most fierce animal in the jungle. Go Lawyers! I think our favorite cheer was "sue the bastards!"
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| 97 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Sat, Apr 25, 2015, 19:07
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bili
I know the dream is to force suburbanites back to the cities. Take away their cars and stick them on light rails. Tax the suburbs to support the cities.
Ah the loony daydreams of the utopian totalitarians.
NO ONE WANTS THAT.
You may manage to zone people out of building where they want to live and you may really believe you can make people happy in tightly concentrated rat cage cities...but you are just going to end up with really really unhappy people. But you don't care about results. Only your golden dreams and good intentions and unicorn farts.
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| 98 | Tree
ID: 161036918
Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 10:15
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NO ONE WANTS THAT.
well, except everyone that does.
Fort Worth and Dallas - two of the largest cities in the United States - are both benefiting from progressive mayors who believe in creating urban villages in areas that were once, well, plays one did not usually venture into.
is there gentrification that is forcing some long time residents out - to a certain extent, yes. unfortunately, that's the price to be paid to prevent the 1970s era ghettos you prefer to live in, at least in your mind.
it's a beautiful thing what's happening here in Fort Worth. and a bike-riding mayor who's a proponent of bike paths and trails!?!??! unheard of in the Baldwinian Uptopia, but wonderful in real life.
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| 99 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 11:52
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Yeah, I lived in Chicago for years, biked the bike trails on the lake, commuted to work by bike and to college by elevated. No car.
Wasn't one thing utopian about it.
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| 100 | Gator
ID: 27337811
Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 19:35
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with liberal ideas about investment in infrastructure, focusing on the family instead of spending hours in a car every day, taking care of the less fortunate and improving quality of life for all.
These are not Liberal principles. They are ideas by almost everyone. Here are liberal ideas...Liberals created the Community Reinvestment Act (CRA) to encourage private lenders to meet the needs of borrowers in low- and moderate-income neighborhoods.
The CRA spawned sub-prime mortgage lending, which boomed starting in the mid-1990s under President Bill Clinton. When the bubble burst, millions of sub-prime borrowers—the low-income people the CRA was created to help—found themselves owing more than their homes were worth. This set off the foreclosure cascade, tipped the economy into a prolonged recession, and plunged many families into poverty after they lost the homes they couldn’t afford but that Washington induced them to buy.
http://www.failedliberalideas.com/#sthash.wPUTF4DE.dpuf
Getting rid of the immigration problem by making it easier for illegals to become citizens.
My favorite was paying welfare families to have more kids so you have single families costing tax payers millions.
The parade of service men wearing high heels.
The CRA caused the financial crisis and Obamacare caused businesses to go to part time workers. Using the bail out money to payoff his buddies instead of focusing on infrastructure as promised are liberal ideas.
Liberals do not have the moral high ground. We all want to help the less fortunate. It is their illogical and economically harmful ideas that separate liberals from the rest of us.
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| 101 | Boldwin
ID: 112382716
Sun, Apr 26, 2015, 20:13
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Amen brother.
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