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Subject: Peace in the Middle East
Posted by: Tree
- [41512710] Fri, Sep 23, 2011, 14:28
As this nonsense goes on, I am wondering if anyone bothered to watch Benjamin Netanyahu's impassioned speech to the UN.
it was an amazing, sincere, plea to Mahmoud Abbas.
"we are in the same city. Let's meet here today, and discuss peace. I extend my hand, in the name of Israel, in the name of peace."
and it went on like that for 40 minutes. he urged Abbas to stop negotiating the terms of the negotiations, and just come to the table and negotiate peace instead.
if you have not watched it, you should. |
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| 137 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 01:32
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one mans views...does Obama REALLY want war? This writer thinks not.
Business Insider thinks so, but still thinks this is brilliance on Obamas part
This writer thinks Obama wants to act, and thinks his forcing the GOP to side with him, was brilliant
MSNBC
Washington Post WONKBLOG, thinks Obama wants to stay far away from Syria and credits him with a genius move to force the GOPs hand
I'm far from alone in my thoughts here. I think Obama is looking not just at the rest of his term, but his long term legacy as it impacts the OPFFICE of the Presidency.
Additionally, Congress is slated for all of 9 days of session in September and the new fiscal year begins Oct 1. Every minute the spend on the Syria question, is a minute the GOP loses to hold the nation hostage over the budget/continuing resolution. Its a minute they lose, to fight immigration reform. The budget/continuing resolution MUST be addressed. To fail to even address immigration reform, further erodes the GOPs hopes of drawing some of the Hispanic vote in the 2014 mid-terms, and further damages their prospects for holding a heavy handed majority in the House.
House GOP members by and large, absolutely will NOT vote in favor of ANYTHING Obama has endorsed. Hell they have repeatedly voted against their own proposals, once Obama endorsed their ideas. I think, Obama wants nothing to do with Syria, without the UK at his side, and w/o a UN sanction to the action. He has neither. I think, this is a ploy, to get what he wants, while appearing to give Congress what they demanded.
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| 138 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 01:47
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None of those sources agree with you that, if given the approval and the war goes poorly, that Congress will get blamed.
I do agree that there is political upside for Obama should Congress deny him authorization (which looks likely). But if Congress does authorize military action, Obama owns it, for good or bad.
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| 139 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 02:17
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I didn't say Congress will get blamed. I said Obama could somewhat insulate himself, by stating that Congress agreed. The big beneficiary of that, being FUTURE Presidents, as the Office itself gets sheltered by the Congressional approval.
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| 140 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 08:54
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I must have misunderstood, then, when you said "...if it goes poorly he can say "Hey, Congress agreed to it"."
Fair enough, then.
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| 141 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 12:16
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Bachmann, Gohmert and Steve King...3 idiots at work
"We have seen the threat that the Muslim Brotherhood has posed here for the people in Egypt. We have seen the threat that the Muslim Brotherhood has posed around the world," Bachmann said. "We stand against this great evil. We are not for them. We remember who caused 9/11 in America. We remember who it was that killed 3,000 brave Americans. We have not forgotten.”
First time I have ever heard anyone claim, the MB was behind the 9/11/01 attacks.
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| 142 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 14:05
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Alan Grayson Backs John Kerry Proposal To Avoid Syria Strike
oh golly...Kerry proposes a way to AVOID a Syria strike? Now, why would the SoS propose something contrary to what the President wants, unless.....well, unless it ISNT contrary to what the president wants.
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| 143 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Mon, Sep 09, 2013, 14:45
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Frankly, I think Kerry has largely failed on this issue. Nevertheless, the appearance of an unhinged SoS has caused Russia (Syria's protector) to consider making this happen: TPM story.
So Obama's initial hardline position, coupled with a delay to get Congressional approval, seems to have somehow caused a possible solution to reveal itself.
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| 144 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 10:58
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Looks like Syria is taking up the offer to have an international agency take over their chemical weapons. France (!) has introduced a UN resolution to give the pending agreement some teeth.
So in response to the "US aggression" toward Syria, Russia has not only stopped denying that Assad had chemical weapons, but agreed to pressure Syria into giving them up.
Good move, Obama.
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| 145 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 11:05
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Obama and Putin have been discussing this Syria solution, for a year
In an interview with PBS, President Obama said if there is a diplomatic path to stop the use of chemical weapons in Syria it would be "overwhelmingly my preference."
Obama also added that he and Russian President Vladimir Putin had talked about the plan now on the table both during the recent G-20 meeting in Russia and during another meeting last year in Mexico.
In other words, the proposal is a true diplomatic breakthrough long in the making.
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| 146 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 11:20
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I'm sure that they have been talking about Syria for that long--after all, Russian has been behind Assad for a long time at we needed to get then to stop propping up the bully. But Russia for nearly all that time denied that Assad even had chemical weapons at all. That portion of the puzzle (the keystone to what looks to be the solution to standing down) is very recent.
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| 147 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 11:29
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No PD. It was made to LOOK recent.
Obama also added that he and Russian President Vladimir Putin had talked about the plan now on the table both during the recent G-20 meeting in Russia and during another meeting last year in Mexico.
Not sure which part of that, is confusing you.
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| 148 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 11:46
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I'm confused by what is an obvious mistake in the article you have swallowed whole. It makes no sense that the chemical weapons that Russian denied Syria had were, instead, the subject of negotiations Russia was secretly having with the US a year ago.
I think the article conflates ongoing Syrian discussions with the specific chemical weapons portion.
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| 149 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 12:05
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Really? You cant imagine a government saying one thing in public, and knowing/doing something else?
I guess you'll just have to wait for Obama and Putin to stand before a camera, and explain how it all works.
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| 150 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 12:13
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Now you're just being argumentative--this is hardly advancing the issue. Let's say that your last point makes you kinda look like an ass and leave it at that.
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| 151 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Sep 10, 2013, 14:19
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Now, I'm just showing my frustration.
This was so obviously orchestrated, as to be almost painful, yet you persist in denying it.
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| 152 | Boldwin
ID: 528261217
Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 18:27
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Because curiously a good percentage of Russian opinion often sounds more American than a good chunk of America these days.
Putin brings the wisdom on Syria.
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| 153 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Thu, Sep 12, 2013, 21:04
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Did you read your own link?
The U.N. Security Council veto system, which means that Russia can block any action just because it says so, was not a product of "profound wisdom" as much as profound pragmatism. Countries don't like to give up their power to other countries. After World War II, getting the world's five remaining great powers (the United States, United Kingdom, France, China and the Soviet Union) to consent to this newfangled United Nations system required granting them veto power so they'd be comfortable with it. This is what it took, but it wasn't profoundly wise, and both Russia and the United States abuse their veto power plenty.
It's true that the League of Nations collapsed because no one took it seriously, including the United States. But the United Nations survived the Cold War, which included lots of non-U.N.-approved military actions from -- you guessed it -- the United States and the Soviet Union. If the United Nations can survive the unilateral Soviet invasion of Afghanistan and the U.S. intervention in Vietnam, among many other wars large and small, it will survive cruise missile strikes on Syria.
Syrian leader Bashar al-Assad's regime has killed so freely and so wantonly in part because it knows Putin will protect it from international action. Putin has also been supplying Assad with heavy weapons. It's a bit rich for him to decry violence or outside involvement at this point.
Russia has certainly espoused dialogue and a compromise plan, but it has acted instead to stop that from happening, refusing to wield its considerable power to bring this about. There is no one in the world better positioned than Vladimir Putin to force Assad to the negotiating table. Instead, Putin has shown every indication that he wishes for Assad to defeat the rebels totally and outright, as his father Hafez al-Assad did in 1982 when he crushed an uprising in Hama.
etc etc etc. The fact checking, time after time after time, brings into question, Putin's points and motivations.
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| 154 | nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 17:22
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PD It makes no sense that the chemical weapons that Russian denied Syria had were
Russia never said Syria didn't have Chem weapons. Syria never said they didn't have them either. Russia and Assad just denied he had used them. There is no question the weapons exist and Russia and Syria have not denied it. Or do I misunderstand your post?
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| 155 | nerveclinic
Leader
ID: 05047110
Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 17:25
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The fact checking, time after time after time, brings into question, Putin's points and motivations.
What is the USA's motivation?
It's a proxy war. Syria and Russia and Iran are all allies. The USA saw an opening to weaken that coalition in a strategically important part of the world. It's not rocket science.
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| 156 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Fri, Sep 13, 2013, 17:59
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Perhaps it was a wink-wink kind of thing, nerve, but Syria only recently admitted it even had chemical weapons. I never really thought about the difference, since I never heard from any party (at least openly) that Syria had them.
And Russia has taken great pains to point all fingers at the rebels whenever chemical weapon evidence appears.
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| 157 | Boldwin
ID: 438441417
Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 18:48
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Sarge
Yes, of course I understood I was linking to a conservative seeking to fisk Putin. A conservative I would normally tend to agree with.
However...
"It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle
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| 158 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 18:53
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Point is B, your own "Putin brings the wisdom...", is simply false. You may believe it to be true, but that makes you all alone, cept for that communist KGB guy standing next to you, Putin.
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| 159 | Boldwin
ID: 438441417
Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 18:57
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Humorous, Sarge. If Demint was the original source of this ludicrous charge against Assad and he was trying to get Bush into an Asian Land War you'd be singing out of the other side of your face like it was your personal anthem and religious mission.
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| 160 | Canadian Hack
ID: 348501421
Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 22:50
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Amazing isn't it? Baldwin's politics are so lacking in any underlying principles that he is now trying to rewrite history to pretend he always liked Vladimir Putin. We have years of posts telling us how he mistrusts Russia - and virtually every other country. But Putin did the one and only thing that matters - he disagreed with Obama.
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| 161 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Sat, Sep 14, 2013, 22:57
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Obama isn't trying to get us into a land war. Your delusions aside, haven't you been paying attention?
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| 162 | Perm Dude
ID: 417342923
Sun, Sep 15, 2013, 09:51
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They hate Obama so much they are willing to take the word of a KGB Communinist over his.
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| 163 | Boldwin
ID: 508421617
Mon, Sep 16, 2013, 22:42
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I can't help it if Russia Today is more pro-capitalism and American ideals than the MSM now days.
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| 164 | sarge33rd
ID: 3871221
Tue, Sep 17, 2013, 11:14
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You still haven't figured it out either I see. Just refuse to admit reality. Now, you find yourself having to side with a former KGB Communist. How does feel, to sell yourself so cheaply, just to oppose a Democrat?
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| 165 | Mith
ID: 412561115
Tue, Sep 17, 2013, 14:00
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...like Tuesday.
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| 166 | nerveclinic
ID: 508301914
Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 09:26
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I can't help it if Russia Today is more pro-capitalism and American ideals than the MSM now days.
I don't want to hijack the thread but that is so patently absurd at face value.
I don't claim to be an expert, but what I hear, over and over, from people who seem to know what they are talking about Russia and who watch Russia says you can sum up the country like this:
There is a small elite and upper middle class, almost everyone is lower middle class to extremely poor.
Many of the rich first obtained the wealth by basically taking State assets under their control during privatisation. Many got/get their wealth due to political connections in some part of Putins political network.
It is extremely difficult to move from one class to another. (Unlike the USA where at least it is certainly still possible)
Most movement when it occurs is through cronyism, often described as being basically a form of "State Mafia" with all the classic trapping of Mafia in the Sopranos. Killings, protection money etc. Believe me we see lots of these boys here in Dubai and we hear all about it and you just look at these guys and think, damn, he looks like he straight out of a Mafia movie.
If you think any poor, unattached, unconnected Russian citizen can just go out and start a business and succeed as easily as you still can in the USA (Granted it's much harder then at times in the past) then I would say maybe you need to go deeper into your research channels.
Please don't go off on a "it's much harder under Obama" tangent. Fair enough it is, but it is still possible and happens every day. And at least some of the current problems in the USA are economic based.
OK back to the thread...
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| 167 | Biliruben
ID: 358252515
Fri, Sep 20, 2013, 13:15
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The tea party is essentially the dupes, cluelessly doing the dirty work for a rich, connected elite who are dreaming of the unfettered economic oligarchy of Russia, where they don't have worry about actual competition and any upstarts eating their lunch.
No wonder boldwin idolizes Russia.
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| 168 | Boldwin
ID: 22840223
Sun, Sep 22, 2013, 04:54
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I don't claim to be an expert, but what I hear, over and over, from people who seem to know what they are talking about Russia and who watch Russia says you can sum up the country like this: - Nerve
Nevertheless Russian media and [RT] Russia Today in particular regularly makes defenses of free market capitalism that haven't been heard in the American MSM in decades.
It is not lost on me that it is insane that:
RT which is just a mouse on the KGB's chain whenever they choose to yank on it...
and Fox News which is owned in surprisingly large share by Saudi owners...
...are currently the among the most 'reliable' sources of pro-American values in high profile media.
People who sling the term 'sustainability' around all the time should be talking about that.
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| 169 | Boldwin
ID: 22840223
Sun, Sep 22, 2013, 05:01
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bili
Crony capitalism and actual capitalism are two entirely separate animals.
That crony capitalists in 'formerly communist countries' are wolves hiding in sheep's clothing is not lost on me.
It is the same selfish nomenclatura all over the world at war with every other class.
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| 170 | Mith
ID: 2105275
Thu, Nov 07, 2013, 06:52
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See post 45.
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| 171 | Tree
ID: 438482411
Thu, Nov 07, 2013, 16:42
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wonder what will happen if it turns out the Palestinians murdered their own leader, because of how much money he stole from them.
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| 172 | Mith
ID: 14102186
Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 07:21
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That seems like a much more preferable outcome than the one that everyone should be much more concerned with.
I'll gladly add that if he was poisoned, I hope it wasn't the Israelis. The fear is warranted and notable because we all know they are fully capable of it.
Sure Hamas and maybe even the PA are too, but (for exactly the same reason I wan't concerned with it 11 months ago, either) that realization wouldn't result in anything like the explosive impact of learning that Israel assassinated Arafat.
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| 173 | bibA
ID: 19101289
Fri, Nov 08, 2013, 10:12
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One must wonder about the poison used - radioactive polonium. Who would more likely have access to it?
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| 174 | Tree
ID: 438482411
Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 09:43
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that realization wouldn't result in anything like the explosive impact of learning that Israel assassinated Arafat.
which shows, to me, an inherent bias against Israel. of course it would be explosive if Israel did this - but it should be less explosive - and potentially more explosive - if the Palestinians themselves did it.
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| 175 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 11:39
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That's really stupid.
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| 176 | Mith
ID: 3692387
Sat, Nov 09, 2013, 11:45
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Just think about it. A radical, orthodox Jewish Israeli assassinated Yatzik Rabin in a situation that would be similar to the realization that Arafat was murdered by radical Palestinians.
You really think Rabin's murder would have been an event of lesser scale than it was had he been murdered by agents of Hamas instead?
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| 177 | Seattle Zen
ID: 3603123
Sun, Nov 10, 2013, 15:03
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You really think Rabin's murder would have been an event of lesser scale than it was had he been murdered by agents of Hamas instead?
Going to have to agree with MITH here.
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| 178 | Mith
ID: 29182720
Tue, Dec 03, 2013, 15:52
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French experts rule out Arafat poisoning
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| 179 | Pancho Villa
ID: 40610217
Wed, Dec 11, 2013, 18:39
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In a glaringly tardy move, US suspends Nonlethal aid to Syrian Rebels in the North.
The chaos in Syria has multiple players, making it impossible to discern who are allies, enemies or neutral. Similar to Iraq, one of the main constants has been the success of Syrian Kurd militias, who fight for territorial and cultural freedom, as opposed to radical Islamic dreams of caliphate establishment, or basic Sunni Arab objections to Shia power and control.
The US, rather than fully embracing Syrian Kurd objectives, and providing arms and money(this may be happening surreptitiously), defers to Turkish fears, who continue to practice apartheid against their Kurdish population.
With all the attention focused on Mandela's recent passing, one wonders why the oppression of Kurds has never been met with the kind of global response South Africa faced in the early 90s. Possibly it's because the difference between a black South African and a white Afrikaaner is so much more distinct than a Turk, Arab and Kurd.
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| 180 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Wed, Dec 11, 2013, 19:05
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Thanks for this. Truth is, Syria became so muddy I lost track. I have to look again at what is going on there.
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| 181 | Boldwin
ID: 21152514
Wed, Dec 25, 2013, 15:06
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Egypt's military-backed interim government has declared the Muslim Brotherhood a terrorist group.
Well duh.
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| 182 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2131916
Mon, Mar 24, 2014, 18:10
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Boldwin's dreams come true
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| 183 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Wed, Apr 23, 2014, 15:05
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Chemical weapons removal in Syria nearly complete.
This is good news.
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| 184 | Perm Dude
ID: 431013412
Fri, May 02, 2014, 22:55
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“It was notable that the panel offered not one example of something they thought Obama should do now to respond to the crises in Ukraine, Syria, Libya, Egypt or lots of other places. They were full of examples of what he should have done in the past, and absolutely certain he would not do the right things in the future, including decisive military action against the Iranian nuclear program..."
Sound familiar? ODS, of course. This one just happens to be coming from the neocons but there's no difference at all in what they are saying than what the GOP is saying top to bottom ("establishment" down to Tea Party fanatic). No difference at all.
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| 185 | Mith
ID: 21130811
Sat, Jul 12, 2014, 14:10
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Sigh.
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| 186 | Bean
ID: 5292191
Wed, Sep 03, 2014, 18:51
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Here we go again
US prepares for deeper Iraq, Syria role, vows justice on Sotloff killing
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