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Subject: Shooting at Sikh temple Posted by: Tree - [17039238] Mon, Aug 06, 2012, 09:36 Six killed, three injured. looks like the shooter was an army vet and may have been a white supremacist. | |||||||
| 39 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:09 |
The majority of the shootings from link 2 in post 29 ... are kids shooting other kids. Obviously, the only solution is for parents at home to have more guns and easier access to them. | ||||||
| 40 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:23 |
I guess there weren't enough guns at Ft. Hood. The first three victims in the Ft Hood shooting died, or were shot...1) charging him unarmed, 2) charging him with a chair...3) throwing a table at him. No, there were not enuff armed people in the vicinity. | ||||||
| 41 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:24 |
Tosh In the majority of those incidents there were responsible adults cringing under their desks without the ability to defend the dependents in their care. | ||||||
| 42 | Mith ID: 23217270 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:29 | Don't the majority of gun murders in the country occur when armed young men shoot other young men who are armed? | ||||||
| 43 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:31 | The majority of gun murders involve young men seeking to take over a desirable drug selling corner. | ||||||
| 44 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:32 |
Baldwin - All I see is a list of shootings. I see zero evidence that the Majority of those incidents had people hiding from the incident. Please provide your evidence, and not just some hot air. Actual proof. Thank you. | ||||||
| 45 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:35 |
B, Law Enforcement personnel are trained to handle stress. yet in a firefight, avg range < 20 feet, they fail to hit the target better than 80% of the time. Lets use the gifford shooting as an example, as to how STUPID, yes that s right, how UTTERLY STUPID, your notion is: crowd of what? 5,000 people or so? Let's use 5% (250), as having a Concealed Carry permit. Randomly scattered then throughout the crowd.(To make the math simple, I am going to assume that all 250 have wheelguns. No semiautos, no 13 rd magazines) Fella starts shooting at Gifford and 3 people in the vicinity see, draw and return fire. Instead of the accurate 20% hit rate, I'm going to assume that these folks are PHENOMENAL shots, and hit 50%. Heat of the moment, all 3 fire all 6 rounds. (Sstatistically normal) Thats 18 rounds, 9 of which hit the perp. The other 9? They go into/over the crowd. Now, we have people running, screaming, falling and shooting. We still have 247 other armed people, who now see these 3 first to respond, standing with guns drawn and bodies in front of them. What happens now? MORE people draw, MORE people shoot, MORE bullets go into the crowd. No B. BAD idea. REALLY bad, bad, poor...idea. | ||||||
| 46 | Pancho Villa ID: 59645318 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:38 |
The majority of gun murders involve young men seeking to take over a desirable drug selling corner. Legalize drugs, eliminate desirable drug selling corners, raise revenue through taxation - problem solved. | ||||||
| 47 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:41 |
Suicides typically make up 56.5% of all gun deaths Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, found an average of 178,423 ER (hospital emergency room) visits a year from 2004 to 2008 for drug-related suicide attempts. US accidental gun deaths per year were down to 613 by 2007 The drug culture that finds so many ardent admirers here, is far and away the leading cause of gun murders, with examples so numerous no one even bothers to take note of their local daily occurrence. As opposed to mass murders which each get national coverage. | ||||||
| 48 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:43 |
Sarge#45 And yet remarkably the armed guard business remains. | ||||||
| 49 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:46 | Funny that the content in #47 came after #46. | ||||||
| 50 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 18:47 |
I see zero evidence that the Majority of those incidents had people hiding from the incident. - Tosh Thanks for the wild goose chase suggestion. If you wish to believe every one of Columbine's teachers weren't cringing under their desks without the wherewithall to defend the dependents in their care, feel free to hold that indefensible claim. What else do you suggest they do since you insist they face gunfire unarmed? | ||||||
| 51 | Mith ID: 23217270 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:04 |
drug culture... far and away the leading cause of gun murders Right, young men killing other young men they believe are likely to be armed (along with anyone caught in the crossfire). Isn't the likelihood that their targets are armed supposed to serve as an effective deterrent? | ||||||
| 52 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:08 |
Even though it's only an opinion, and I have no actual facts to back it up, I will go ahead and state it as fact ... just because I believe it to be true. If called on to present evidence of my statement, I will change the subject. **Squirrel!** People from Illinois are chronic masterbators. Prove me wrong. See how that works? | ||||||
| 53 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:15 |
Teachers in Columbine were unarmed and we know this...because they did not shoot the shooters. See how that works? | ||||||
| 54 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:20 |
Isn't the likelihood that their targets are armed supposed to serve as an effective deterrent? - MITH The guy aiming to take over a drug corner has an atypical mindset, MITH...and...being shot to death is a really good deterent. Works every time it's tried. | ||||||
| 55 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:21 |
And praise Jah that teachers are unarmed. That's just what we need. A bunch of kids breaking into the teacher's desks to check out the weaponry. Maybe I should start packing heat when I go to church. Baldwin might be there with a gun. | ||||||
| 56 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:23 | How many dead schoolkids are you willing to produce, in order to secure your goal of disarming America? | ||||||
| 57 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:26 | How about re-instituting the AWB? Is that "disarming America?" Or are you unable to tell the difference? | ||||||
| 58 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:30 |
Scare tactics. Nothing but Chicken Little Crap. Come on Baldwin. I'm still waiting for ANY evidence that the Majority of those incidents had people hiding from the incident. And not hot air. | ||||||
| 59 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:33 | Have it your way, Tosh. I guess the fact that they were disarmed made no difference in their conduct. | ||||||
| 60 | Tosh Leader ID: 057721710 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:55 |
A question for Baldwin - How many dead schoolkids are you willing to produce, in order to secure your goal of arming every freak in America? | ||||||
| 61 | Pancho Villa ID: 59645318 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 19:59 |
Teachers in Columbine were unarmed and we know this...because they did not shoot the shooters. We don't know if they would have shot the shooters had they been armed. My experience was that most of my teachers are basically pacifists, hardly equipped emotionally to shoot and kill, even in the face of such a calamitous situation. Maybe a better idea than arming teachers against their wishes would be to keep lethal weapons out of the hands of seriously disturbed kids like Harris and Thebold. | ||||||
| 62 | DWetzel ID: 25740420 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 20:41 |
"And praise Jah that teachers are unarmed. That's just what we need. A bunch of kids breaking into the teacher's desks to check out the weaponry. But, they would never do that, because everyone knows the presence of the gun deters crime, or something, and if the teacher caught them committing a crime he could just blow that sixth grader away because that's why God created America. Or something. | ||||||
| 63 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 20:58 |
Tosh The freaks are already armed. | ||||||
| 64 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:03 | Which is why we pass the AWB, to get the worst of the guns out of their hands. | ||||||
| 65 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:04 | No, you pass any gun ban as part of your incremental approach to seizing them all. | ||||||
| 66 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:07 |
We already have a large segment of weapons already banned. You response is nonsense and you have no idea what you are talking about (which are clearly playing off each other in this thread). The vast, vast majority of people don't want to seize all weapons but believes that many weapons have no place in civilian hands. | ||||||
| 67 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:09 |
The vast, vast majority of people don't want to seize all weapons... - PD That is the reason that you are reduced to taking an incremental approach. | ||||||
| 68 | Mith ID: 23217270 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:18 |
The guy aiming to take over a drug corner has an atypical mindset Pretty sure I agree. And we seem to also agree that the overwhelming majority of gun murders are committed by people with atypical mindsets - atypical mindsets that are immune to the gun violence deterrent (as that term is used and endorsed by gun rights advocates) supposedly created by an armed civillian populace. Sure, a killed gunman isn't going to kill anyone (or anyone else) but since the guy who killed him did so to defend his turf, just as he will either kill or be killed by the next threat to his turf, the cycle only continues. A real head-scratcher, huh? | ||||||
| 69 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:27 | I'm not reduced to anything. You seem quite convinced of a position I've never taken, using the logical fallacy of a slippery slope to "prove" it. | ||||||
| 70 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:35 |
PD Not fooled. MITH If only selfish lawbreaking hedonists would dry up their market. | ||||||
| 71 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:40 |
MITH And yes, it is a depressing cycle. As long as drug dealers and drug users are willing to see people killed to satisfy their appetites...they will perpetuate the cycle. | ||||||
| 72 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 21:41 |
Does anyone else see B's arguments lately, and find themselves reminded of their 4 yr old child? "Daddy, why is the sky blue?" "Because I made it that way" "Why" "Because I was tired of green after the grass and trees" "why?" "Because the earth s big, so there is a lot of grass and a lot of trees" "why?" ad nauseum | ||||||
| 73 | Mith ID: 23217270 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 22:01 |
If only selfish lawbreaking hedonists would dry up their market. Exactly what prohibitionists were saying in the 1920s, I'm sure. And exactly what gun ban advocates would say about the violent firearm black market that would surely develop if they ever got a ban pushed through. | ||||||
| 74 | DWetzel ID: 25740420 Tue, Aug 07, 2012, 22:57 |
"Does anyone else see B's arguments lately, and find themselves reminded of their 4 yr old child?" Nope. My now 7 year old tired of those arguments sometime before his 4th birthday. | ||||||
| 75 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:24 |
I have to spoonfeed you liberals short sentences and little words sometimes. My vocabulary scored a 96 percentile among Ivy League bound students...but I usually just pull out enuff vocabulary to beat you guys senseless and leave the rest in reserve. | ||||||
| 76 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:27 | And yet you resort to such problems on this board. Only goes to show that a large vocabulary doesn't make a person smart or argue well, just like a kick-ass hammer doesn't make the owner a carpenter. | ||||||
| 78 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 05:35 |
He apparently also doesn't realize that gun rights under Obama have been expanded, not contracted. Apparently expansion is the surest sign of confiscation. | ||||||
| 79 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 08:50 | That must be why people are buying guns like there is no tomorrow. | ||||||
| 80 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 08:54 | In fact I guarantee that if Obama is re-elected, the next day will be the biggest day in American gun retail history. | ||||||
| 81 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 12:16 | Yes B, the Right has done a tremendous job, of selling the lie, that Obama is taking away their guns. A marketing campaign, successful or otherwise, does not define the truth. Only the perception of it. | ||||||
| 82 | Perm Dude ID: 3210201915 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 12:26 | Agreed. I don't see how fear-driven gun sales is proof that Obama is taking away guns. The fact that people would be able to buy the same kinds of guns then as the day he first took office demonstrates the opposite, in fact. | ||||||
| 83 | Tree ID: 17039238 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 12:51 |
Thanks for the wild goose chase suggestion. If you wish to believe every one of Columbine's teachers weren't cringing under their desks without the wherewithall to defend the dependents in their care, feel free to hold that indefensible claim. What else do you suggest they do since you insist they face gunfire unarmed? it's not a wild goose chase.  His name is Dave Sanders. he faced gunfire unarmed... When the shooting started, this PUBLIC SCHOOL TEACHER who graduated from a PUBLIC COLLEGE, ran to alert other students of what was coming their way. He is responsible for saving over 100 lives. He was shot and killed by the gun-toting maniacs for his efforts. unarmed, he saved over 100 lives. had he been armed? the statistics showed there would have been even more deaths. Dave Sanders is a hero in the truest sense of the word - he risked, and ultimately paid, with his life, to save over 100 children, and he did so without needing to add more bullets to the chaos. he wasn't cringing under some desk, and to make that claim is insulting to his memory. | ||||||
| 84 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 13:51 | To force other teachers go thru that same crisis because you are irrational when it comes to self-defense is insulting to his memory. | ||||||
| 85 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:05 |
If we can train police to defend schoolkids, there is no reason we can't teach teachers to defend kids. BTW, do you insist police go into that situation unarmed? And if not, why not? | ||||||
| 87 | Tree ID: 17039238 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 14:24 |
re 84 and 85. you were too lazy to look for proof of a point you tried to make. because there is no proof. instead, proof against your argument - essentially shredding it to tatters - couldn't have been easier to find, especially for anyone with an interest in facts who actually remembered the story of Dave Sanders. he wasn't cringing under the desk. he was busy being a hero, and not needing a gun to do so. If we can train police to defend schoolkids, there is no reason we can't teach teachers to defend kids. we do train our teachers to defend kids - that's exactly what Dave Sanders did. he defended the kids under his care, and made the ultimate sacrifice to do so. he saved move lives without a gun than he would have, with a gun. and again, statistics and facts (things you don't believe in) show that if he had a gun, it's likely more lives would have been lost. | ||||||
| 88 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 15:07 | I like my heroes to survive. | ||||||
| 89 | slug ID: 265522515 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 17:22 | We all do. Sometimes it just doesn't happen that way. God's will | ||||||
| 90 | Boldwin ID: 18643169 Wed, Aug 08, 2012, 22:11 | It happens that way a lot more often when the victim is armed. | ||||||
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