| RotoGuru Politics Forum View the Forum Registry XML Get RSS Feed for this thread | Self-edit this thread |
|
| 0 |
Subject: More gun =....more mass shootings...go figure Posted by: sarge33rd - [12554167] Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 14:35 link In 2005, as a rampage unfolded inside a shopping mall in Tacoma, Washington, a civilian named Brendan McKown confronted the assailant with a licensed handgun he was carrying. The assailant pumped several bullets into McKown and wounded six people before eventually surrendering to police after a hostage standoff. (A comatose McKown eventually recovered after weeks in the hospital.) In Tyler, Texas, that same year, a civilian named Mark Wilson fired his licensed handgun at a man on a rampage at the county courthouse. Wilson—who was a firearms instructor—was shot dead by the body-armored assailant, who wielded an AK-47. (None of these cases were included in our mass shootings data set because fewer than four victims died in each.) Just throwing that paragraph out there, to dissuade the argument "if only an armed civilian had been there..." | |||||||
| 1 | nerveclinic ID: 4711362616 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:14 |
Sarge that's not the primary reason we have the right to bear arms. It's to make sure the king (The government) is not the only armed segment of the populace. To make sure a tyrant will not have a walk in the park if he makes the decision to subvert the constitution. The side discussions about stopping criminals is mostly noise. | ||||||
| 2 | nerveclinic ID: 4711362616 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:15 |
Not to mention you can't use one event to prove a point, just like baseball, too small a sample size. | ||||||
| 3 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:18 |
ummm, no argument put forth re why we have a 2nd amendment. Nor is the article discussing one case. It cites a large number. I merely copy/pasted a single partial paragraph, vs the whole thing. | ||||||
| 4 | nerveclinic ID: 4711362616 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:29 |
OK apologies I just read the paragraph you posted. In any case the primary constitutional position I posted would trump any study claiming that individuals don't stop burglers etc. One problem that has been identified with these studies is a lot of people who chase away a burgler don't bother calling the police. For example, someone hears a sound in the bedroom, goes in and confronts a would be teenage burglar, said burglar runs for his life, home owner is convinced it's not worth the trouble to call the police. That event wouldn't be in a "study" because nothing was reported. A professor in Florida did a "study" about this phenomenon in the 80(?) but I doubt I can find it now. | ||||||
| 5 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:35 | This study, dealt with mass shootings, not individual B&Es. Nor does it, in any way, address the 2nd amendment EXCEPT, to note that as gun carry laws have been eased, mass shootings have increased. Totally calling into question, the allegation that mass carry laws, would reduce crime. | ||||||
| 6 | Boldwin ID: 428282914 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 15:59 |
It is a hotly debated subject on the internet but estimates are that 2.5 million crimes are prevented by the presence of a gun in the house or on the person. I've posted studies showing over a million crimes were prevented yearly. The non-partisan Google places at the head of the search, "It has been estimated by the FBI that yearly three crimes are stopped by guns". Reminds you of Sarge's favorite lying link, 'only 8.5 cases of voter fraud have ever been proven according to republican lawyers'. So obviously Google knows how to spin and lie like pigdogs. Everyone in redstate personally knows more people than that who have prevented a crime by merely flashing a gun. Instead of 'Staples' easy buttons on our desks, we should all have one that sounds like a Remmington pump action 12-gauge. | ||||||
| 7 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:14 |
at the risk of being repetitively redundant, this article, deals with MASS shootings. Defined by Law Enforcement, as one where 4 or more people are shot, in a single incident. Do at least TRY and skim the material, before attempting to argue its counter. | ||||||
| 8 | Boldwin ID: 428282914 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:38 | We all know you don't support the argument "if only an armed civilian had been there..." mass shooting or not. This thread was attempting to destroy RTBA and we all know it. | ||||||
| 9 | Khahan ID: 54138190 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:52 |
Sarge, the mass shootings are already occurring, whether somebody is there armed or not. In the 2 anecdotes provided the presence of an armed civilian did fail. But that presence gave a chance to end the event quicker. In one case the assailant had body armor, something that has to be considered. In the other, its stated the civilian 'confronted' the assailant. What does this mean? Did he return fire or did he show his gun and say, "Stop shooting or I'll shoot you?" We don't know. Either way, its cherry picking end results. However, the argument being made, "armed citizens could stop a mass shooting" is a precursor argument. They have the opportunity. That does not guarantee the end result. | ||||||
| 10 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 16:53 | Egads...am I alone is understanding that this study is showing that as gun laws are relaxed, the nr of mass shootings is on the rise? That the precise opposite of what the NRA claims, is what is happening? | ||||||
| 11 | Khahan ID: 54138190 Sat, Sep 29, 2012, 23:50 | I think you are. All this study shows is that 2 events are happening in the same time period. It does nothing to draw a cause/effect relationship between the two. | ||||||
| 12 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 00:10 | 2???? It studies SIXTY mass shootings, and correlates an increase in frequency with a relaxation in gun laws. | ||||||
| 13 | Mith ID: 23217270 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 01:35 | Correlation moves the cliffs closer but you still can't jump it. Show me a bridge. | ||||||
| 14 | Building 7 Leader ID: 171572711 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 07:30 |
If there were no guns, there would be no mass shootings. What was the correlation between taking psychotic drugs and then doing a mass shooting? I'd be more interested in that. I think it's over 90%. | ||||||
| 15 | Boldwin ID: 308313010 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 11:55 | Maybe the key is, 'If there were no psychotherapists there would be no mass murderers.' | ||||||
| 16 | Boldwin ID: 308313010 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 12:00 |
Past is prologue? Hand'em in boys. | ||||||
| 17 | Perm Dude ID: 56832185 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 12:15 | Its in the flouride, dude! | ||||||
| 18 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 13:03 |
OK, lets think on this a little shall we? (1) I firmly believe the "bell curve" applies. Where at either extreme, we find 5% of the overall population. That said, our population is now such that this 5% figure is not an inconsequential number of people. (2) Only those at fringe of that 5%, are probable to engage in an activity like a "mass shooting". (3) As the nr of persons represented by the 5% figure has grown to be a meaningful nr of people, the fringes of that 5% has also grown, to represent a greater nr of people than in the past. NOW...as gun laws and ownership has been eased, what have we done? Made it easier for that fringe element to lay their hands on weaponry which greatly facilitates the commission of a "mass shooting" type crime. (Do we really need studies to tell us what we can logically deduce?????) I'm not saying, nor do I think the article is saying, eased gun laws CAUSED mass shootings. I DO think, it is saying that eased gun laws have facilitated mass shootings. Now, what if anything do we do about it, or do we just shrug and say, "Oh well...people gonna die anyway...." | ||||||
| 19 | Mith ID: 18451815 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 20:37 |
Still no bridge. eased gun laws have facilitated mass shootings Lets try it this way. They studied 61 mass shootings. How many of them were facilitated by one or more "eased gun law"? | ||||||
| 20 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 21:17 |
it escapes your logic to make the leap... eased gun laws = more guns on the street, more guns on the street and we see an increase in freq of mass shootings... and you can not logically deduce, a correlation? OK..I give up. I'm getting old or something, and really dont much care anymore for pointless jousting. | ||||||
| 21 | Perm Dude ID: 56832185 Sun, Sep 30, 2012, 21:45 |
Really? :) | ||||||
| 22 | Khahan ID: 39432178 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 09:11 |
and you can not logically deduce, a correlation? Can you - yes. But should you - no. Just because you can does not mean its right (or to be fair wrong). Its unsupported. Red flag to investigate? Sure. Now that there is a parallel see if there is a correlation. The study does not do that. I got mad at you the other day. I was upset and said, "I hope you get sick." 30 mins later you started sniffling and got a cold. (ok, I wasn't really mad and didn't really say that). Those 2 events happened close together in time and are on a related subject. By the logic you are using I am some kind of a witch because I caused your illness. And what do we do with withces? We burn them!!! And what do we burn them on? | ||||||
| 23 | Frick ID: 2193319 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 10:35 | Correlation does not imply causation. | ||||||
| 24 | Pancho Villa ID: 59645318 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 10:44 |
I don't think you need studies to come to the realization that a society which allows incredibly easy access to an entire arsenal to persons with psychiatric instability, as is the case with Colorado theatre terrorist James Holmes, invites incidents where innocents are massacred. The NRA, with incredible political influence and a position that distorts the 2nd amendment beyond recognition, promotes unfettered access to weapons designed for the sole purpose of killing as many people in as short a time as possible, as well as unfettered access to as much ammunition necessary to acomplish mass murder. If we're going to talk correlation, we need look no further than the irresponsible position of the NRA as it relates to access to deadly weapons for just about anyone with a pulse. | ||||||
| 25 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 13:01 |
Its a simple exrcise in logical reasoning... (1) You MUST have a gun to commit a gun crime. (ie, mass shooting, is a crime which requires a firearm) (2) Easier access to guns, facilitates mass shootings. No CAUSE is implied. I said, above and just now...it FACILITATES the crime. No more study should be needed to draw that conclusion, that would be needed to ascertain that if one stands naked in the middle of a field, during a rainstorm, they will get wet. If the very definition of words within the language, and the exercise of simple deductive reasoning, no longer applies to discourse...then I have to ask...whats the point and where do we go from there? | ||||||
| 26 | Perm Dude ID: 56832185 Mon, Oct 01, 2012, 13:04 |
Pretty much as soon as you make the argument that is is a "simple excercise in logical reasoning" we can say that the dialog has broken down. Let's not beat this dead horse anymore. | ||||||
| 28 | Khahan ID: 54138190 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 20:18 | guns save 12 yr old girl | ||||||
| 29 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Sat, Oct 20, 2012, 22:04 | so, now the one in a thousand case proves the counter point? | ||||||
| 30 | Great One ID: 2431114 Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 14:37 |
more good reasons to keep guns around. gun struggle this story stinks | ||||||
| 31 | Pancho Villa ID: 59645318 Thu, Oct 25, 2012, 19:53 | We don't need no stinkin background checks | ||||||
| 33 | Biliruben ID: 358252515 Fri, Oct 26, 2012, 00:58 |
Man. Two Cams. Giving a good name a bad name. Of course my grandpa Cam was a big gun dealer... | ||||||
| 34 | boikin ID: 532592112 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 14:31 |
Looks like way maybe a few years away from making assault weapons at home: 3-D printed guns | ||||||
| 35 | Boldwin ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 15:11 |
bili See now, I love both yer gramps and yer dad. WTF happened with you that the apple fell so far from the tree? | ||||||
| 36 | Mith ID: 4310402110 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 15:39 | Anybody think this guy should walk? | ||||||
| 37 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 15:43 | murder, plain and simple. | ||||||
| 38 | Boldwin ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:01 |
Not legal, but if they had repeatedly broken in this would lead to a state of mind. Some people really mean it when they brag, 'if you are going to shoot at me, better make sure I am dead'. Some bullies take more discouragement than others. I notice guys with rap sheets pages and pages long get society's hand ringing over their mental state and their circumstances. Never any sympathy and mitigation for the breakin victim tho. | ||||||
| 39 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:05 | not when he neutralizes the threat then executes them as though he were finishing off a wounded deer on a hunting trip. Psycopaths, deserve no sympathy. | ||||||
| 40 | Boldwin ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:18 | How many times would I have to break into your house before you understood the need to stop it permanently? | ||||||
| 41 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:25 | how many times, do you have to be proven wrong before you get quiet? | ||||||
| 42 | Mith ID: 4310402110 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 16:48 | So a murder charge for the homeowner, Boldy? | ||||||
| 43 | Tree ID: 3710342616 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 17:34 |
How many times would I have to break into your house before you understood the need to stop it permanently? so, you're condoning the shooting and subsequent "double tap" to the head that killed these two teenagers? | ||||||
| 44 | bibA ID: 54522612 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 17:58 | Baldwin - If you are in favor of burglary being a capital offense, just say so, and lobby your elected representatives to pass the appropriate laws. | ||||||
| 45 | Boldwin ID: 44100266 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:31 | I said it was illegal. I said you have to take into consideration the state of mind repeated break-ins will create in a person when you sentence. | ||||||
| 46 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:33 | No B, not in this case, where he executed the 2nd person, and then left the bodies until the next day before calling law enforcement. Plain and simple, cold blooded, murder. No excuses for it, at all...none. | ||||||
| 47 | Mith ID: 18451815 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 18:44 |
Boldwin I didn't ask if he did anything illegal. I didn't ask about sentencing. I asked if the shooter's actions (go with his own description of events) warrant a murder charge. In the past you've advocated judging whether shooting victims should be blamed for their own deaths by their appearance. Here are photos of Nicholas Brady and Haile Kife: 
| ||||||
| 48 | Tree ID: 3710342616 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 19:14 |
this is the part in the article that says it all, to me: Smith dragged Kifer next to Brady as she gasped for her life. He pressed the revolver's barrel under her chin and pulled the trigger in what he described as a "good, clean finishing shot" that was meant to end her suffering. he made a decision - instead of calling 911 for someone who was incapacitated, he shot her under her chin. that, without question, is cold-blooded murder. | ||||||
| 49 | Mith ID: 18451815 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 19:19 | Do state or local governments typically have official procedures for taking guns away from people who exhibit unstable behavior? | ||||||
| 50 | sarge33rd ID: 12554167 Mon, Nov 26, 2012, 19:30 | not unless/until a violent crime is committed, which would render them ineligible to own firearms. | ||||||
| If you believe a recent post violates the policy on Civility and Respect, you may report the abuse via email to moderators@rotoguru1.com | ||||||||
| ||||||||
Post a reply to this message: More gun =....more mass shootings...go figure | ||||||||