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| Posted by: Great One
- [201155199] Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 18:23
Chris Benoit, family found dead
Written: June 25, 2007World Wrestling Entertainment is deeply saddened to report that today Chris Benoit and his family were found dead in their home. There are no further details at this time, other than the Benoit family residence is currently being investigated by local authorities.
Tonight’s Raw on USA Network will serve as a tribute to Chris Benoit and his family. WWE extends its sincerest thoughts and prayers to the Benoit family’s relatives and loved ones in this time of tragedy.
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| | | 1 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 18:23
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I'm not really sure what to say here.
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| | | 2 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 18:40
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rajah...
WWE is reporting that Chris Benoit and his family (including his wife, former WCW & ECW personality Nancy "Woman" Benoit and son Daniel, Dave Meltzer of the Wrestling Observer reports) have been found dead in their home in Atlanta.
Furthermore, all the stuff surrounding the faux McMahon death angle has been removed from the front page. This is not a joke.
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| | | 3 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:18
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Brutal. Rest In Peace, Chris Benoit.
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| | | 4 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:20
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Think mainstream media is scared to report this because they think its "all part of the show"?
Wouldn't a famous person and his family all found dead be a pretty major story?
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| | | 5 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:24
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I'd have to assume McMahon himself comes out on RAW tonight and sets his publicity stunt/Sopranos take off angle aside out of respect....but you never know.
We have no details but for the whole family to be dead is perhaps more horrible than the Eddie Guerrero tragedy. I guess it remains to be seen.
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| | | 6 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:31
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If this is true, this is unbelievable. Very sad.
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| | | 7 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:39
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I'm trying to figure out what happened here. He misses the show on Sunday to attend to a family emergency, and the next morning everyone is dead? Thats crazy.
I read somewhere that 4 people were found. So you have Nancy, Chris, their son... and???
God I hope Kevin Sullivan buried his hatred all those years ago, or he'd be suspect #1.
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| | | 8 | Tree
ID: 405552518
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 19:55
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apparently, they've canceled the live Raw.
this is...a mindf*ck. this is even more f*cked up than Eddy passing.
there have been a couple reports that Nancy called Benoit and told him her and their son were coughing up blood, so he took the next flight out...
but...i dunno what there is to that.
ugh.
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| | | 9 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 20:03
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There's Vince.
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| | | 10 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 20:22
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My God.
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| | | 12 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 21:01
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This is very sad. And I'm confused as to how he flew home and then this happened.
Best wishes to the entire Benoit family and friends. My deepest sympathies.
A bit of topic but obviously I'm not going to score Raw tonight. I will assume we are all in agreement we don't need to score anything tonight. We will evaluate Smackdown and ECW as they come.
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| | | 13 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 21:08
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They are talking about it now on TV
Calling it a Homicide
This is crazy.
I just can't grasp it right now
Cliff
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| | | 14 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:01
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The LA news channels were saying a Suspected Homicide.
Don't know where they were getting the info from
Cliff
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| | | 15 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:05
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That article said they are investigating it as a "Murder-Suicide".
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| | | 16 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:37
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Geez. I thought I might return home and find out it was a mistake or something. And then I turned on RAW........
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| | | 17 | blue hen
ID: 472431014
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 22:51
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I am watching Raw for the first time in years. Even the commercials. Benoit was about as good as it got and I'm glad he was able to win the title before he left us.
This is extremely sad.
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| | | 18 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:13
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Not only were we the same age, we were born the same year.
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| | | 19 | Tree
ID: 175142522
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:14
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man...it's really looking like a murder-suicide. and that Nancy and Daniel had been dead several days before Chris...
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| | | 20 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:14
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Pretty wild how Eddie appeared in the ring at Wrestlemania 20 (seemingly) out of nowhere. Almost like he was already dead coming to meet his old friend who joined him. I don't know, just crazy.
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| | | 21 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:20
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Was kinda surreal.
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| | | 22 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:41
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Man do I hope this is inaccurate...
The station said that investigators believe the 40-year-old Benoit killed his wife, Nancy, and 7-year-old son, Daniel, over the weekend, then himself on Monday. A neighbor called police, and the bodies were found in three rooms.
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| | | 23 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:47
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FAYETTEVILLE, Ga. - WWE wrestler Chris Benoit, his wife, and son were found dead Monday and police said they were investigating the deaths as a murder-suicide.
ADVERTISEMENT
Detective Bo Turner told television station WAGA that the case was being treated as a murder-suicide, but said that couldn't be confirmed until evidence was examined by a crime lab.
The station said that investigators believe the 40-year-old Benoit killed his wife, Nancy, and 7-year-old son, Daniel, over the weekend, then himself on Monday. A neighbor called police, and the bodies were found in three rooms.
Lead investigator Lt. Tommy Pope, of the Fayette County Sheriff's Department, told The Associated Press the deaths were being investigated as homicide, and that the causes of death awaited autopsy results on Tuesday. Pope said the bodies were discovered about 2:30 p.m., but refused to release details.
The house is in a secluded neighborhood set back about 60 yards off a gravel road, surrounded by stacked stone wall and a double-iron gate. On Monday night, the house was dark except for a few outside lights. There was a police car in front, along with two uniformed officers.
Benoit was a former world heavyweight and Intercontinental champion. He also held several tag-team titles during his career.
"WWE extends its sincerest thoughts and prayers to the Benoit family's relatives and loved ones in this time of tragedy," the federation said in a statement on its Web site.
Benoit was scheduled to perform at the "Vengeance" pay-per-view event Sunday night in Houston, but was replaced at the last minute because of what announcer Jim Ross called "personal reasons."
The native of Canada maintained a home in metro Atlanta from the time he wrestled for the defunct World Championship Wrestling.
The WWE canceled its live "Monday Night RAW" card in Corpus Christi, Texas, and USA Network aired a three-hour tribute to Benoit in place of the scheduled wrestling telecast.
"My relationship with Chris has extended many years and I consider him a great friend," Carl DeMarco, the president of WWE Canada, said in a statement. "Chris was always first-class — warm, friendly, caring and professional one of the best in our business."
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| | | 24 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Mon, Jun 25, 2007, 23:59
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If that is true, it changes everything. It also kills his legacy, which is all we can hold onto. So unfortunate.
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| | | 25 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 00:11
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The only way I could see it not being true is that he came home and found them dead... and then killed himself.
This sucks.
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| | | 26 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 00:34
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That's what I was thinking/hoping ... because something I read said she called him saying that she and her son were coughing up blood. The only way out of this is that he found them dead when he got home and then took his own life. In the end, everything is f'd up anyway ... but you gotta hope this is the ending that came to be.
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| | | 28 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 00:40
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Just got finished watching Raw. I wonder whether any or which of the wrestlers who taped comments knew about the murder/suicide investigation beforehand.
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| | | 29 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 01:08
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Wow this is horrible.
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| | | 30 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 01:12
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From the front page of WWE...
"It has been ruled that the deaths of Chris Benoit, his wife Nancy and their son Daniel earlier today were the result of a double murder-suicide from within the home. WWE.com will have more as soon as it becomes available."
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| | | 31 | RebelFan
Sustainer
ID: 014833716
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 01:54
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Really crappy situation, Benoit was always one of my favorites all the way back to his early days. Was a hell of a worker, hope somehow the cops got this one wrong early on, and it comes out he didn't off his family. Really crappy.
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| | | 32 | Boxman
ID: 211139621
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 06:26
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I was into wrestling years ago and whenever Benoit was on you could count on a quality showing. It's hard to stomach something like this. Just unreal.
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| | | 33 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 09:09
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I wonder what this means... "The details, when they come out are going to prove a little bizarre," said Fayette County District Attorney Scott Ballard, according to The Atlanta-Journal Constitution.
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| | | 34 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 09:12
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weirder...
- CNN is reporting that two weeks prior to the tragic events of this
weekend, concerned WWE fans and fans of Chris Benoit called a local
Atlanta news channel inquiring about the death of Benoit. CNN is unable to
say where the rumor started but say it is an eerie coincidence to say the
least. (I had not heard any such rumor and am quite surprised that CNN
would mention it.)
Toxicology results will be in by 1:00PM EST and while police are almost
positive it was a double murder-suicide, they are not ruling out any other
cause of death in the case.
For those interested, CNN will be covering the toxicology results as soon
as they become public.
Again, to refresh, two weeks PRIOR to this weekend, fans called a local
Atlanta news channel asking if they knew any information on the death of
Benoit.
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| | | 35 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 09:37
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Great One do you have a link for that report?
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| | | 36 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 09:42
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just saw that on Gerweck
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| | | 37 | RebelFan
Sustainer
ID: 014833716
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 11:36
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Don't know what to think about the wwe's move here
In light of the recent developments that Benoit reportedly killed his wife and son, then committed suicide, WWE.com has yanked all merchandise pertaining to Benoit off of its website. All searches pertaining to Benoit on WWE Shopzone's website are now returning "discontinued".
Benoit's name has also been removed from the description of the Wrestlemania XX DVD. It now reads "Triple H defends his World Heavyweight Championship against Shawn Michaels."
Source: PWInsider.com
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| | | 38 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 12:52
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A law enforcement official close to the investigation tells The Associated Press that pro wrestler Chris Benoit strangled his wife and smothered his son before hanging himself in his weight room.
CNN.com
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| | | 39 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 13:11
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simply mind boggling.
i wonder what kind of rage and insanity was going on in his brain that would cause this. i mean, whatever got into his head when he was in texas, did not subside on the plane trip home.
so, so tragic.
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| | | 40 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 13:41
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.......and all of those accounts of how much he loved his family. While I can think of scenarios that might cause someone in a fit of rage to harm their spouse, I cannot fathom what could happen to cause someone to kill their child.
Horrible.
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| | | 41 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 13:45
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well, FWIW, in 2003, Nancy did file for divorce from him, and also sought, and was given, and order of protection, and he wasn't allowed in the home.
they, of course, eventually reconcilled.
there's a lot of studying lately on the effects of of steroids, painkillers, and multiple concussions on football players, and how the combination of those three elements creates a sort of "brain injury".
wrestlers, also have issues with all three of those things, and i'm wondering if this is tied in.
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| | | 42 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 14:43
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Wow. That's insane. I wonder how Eddie's death affected him...
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| | | 43 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 15:51
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News conference notes from Fayetteville, GA:
From: WGGL shown on Fox News
- Lt. Pope: WWE called police officials at 2:30PM on Monday over concern for Benoit’s well being. Police found all three bodies in the home. “Double Homicide Suicide” is the official ruling.
- It appears Benoit killed his wife on Friday, his son shortly after, and likely hanged himself either late Saturday night or early Sunday.
- No suicide note was left behind.
- Asphyxiation is the official ruling for Benoit’s wife and son deaths.
- Benoit was previously arrested for a DUI.
- A lot of prescription medication was found in the home, legal prescriptions.
- Police found anabolic steroids in the home.
- No comment from police regarding a possible motivation.
- He killed himself several hours, but no more than a day, after killing son Daniel.
- Police is unaware of prior domestic violence.
- District Attorney Scott Ballard stated that a Bible was placed near each murder victim.
- Benoit bond Nancy’s hands and feet and she was wrapped in a towel. Blood was found near Nancy’s body.
- In 2003, a temporary restraining order was sought but later dropped.
- Benoit made no attempt to hide the bodies.
- The DA himself has not heard from WWE.
- Daniel was found in an upstairs bedroom. Benoit’s wife was also found in an upstairs family room, and Benoit hung himself in the weight room in the basement.
- The toxicology reports are still pending. It will probably take more than two weeks for the reports to be finished.
- Benoit apparently called WWE stating that Daniel was coughing up blood, thus likely the “personal reasons” for missing weekend house shows.
-He says that in 2003 there was an order of protection brought against Benoit, but he has not seen all of the paper work.
-Benoit hung himself with the cord from his weight machines.
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| | | 44 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 15:57
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wow. i just continue to be stunned by this entire thing.
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| | | 46 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:02
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What Tree said before about him flying all the way home and THEN doing all of this is also insane.
I can understand being in a fit of rage and something happens before you think about it... but this was practically pre-meditated. He had all that time to think about it... on the plane, on the ride there etc. Crazy.
I wonder if we'll over know what pushed him over the edge.
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| | | 47 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:16
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**THIS IS COMPLETE SPECULATION AND CONJECTURE**
Might it have been something like: Nancy informs him she is leaving and taking their son. He goes to talk it over.....but flips out in a fit, killing them.....then realizes what he did and in some kind of remorseful gesture, leaves the Bibles before turning onto himself??
Still leaves no explanation for why he pointed his rage towards his son. Ugh.
However you rationalize it though, it is an absolutely horrible, gruesome, vicious act. Sickening.
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| | | 48 | Boxman
ID: 251142612
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:21
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Still leaves no explanation for why he pointed his rage towards his son. Ugh.
Again, this is speculation.
The son could have been a witness. After having killed his son (a person he probably actually cared about), Benoit realized the gravity of what he did and took his own life.
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| | | 49 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:25
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Since his wife was tied up of sorts it sounds like she might have been the 2nd one killed. Also at what point are we saying he flew home? Didn't he miss both a saturday and sunday event?
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| | | 50 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:32
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I guess the only clues, the 'smoking guns' so to speak, are the “several curious text messages sent by Benoit early Sunday morning.”
How would you like to be one of the guys (Jericho? Chavo? Malenko?) who received one of those??? And WTF did they say?!??? You have to wonder if one of them was a confession or his own version of a suicide note.
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| | | 51 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:33
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He missed a house show on Sat and a PPV on Sunday.
His wife was killed first.
I don't understand what makes everyone think that his murderous rage began in Texas. Obviously something caused him to leave work and head home but no one know what his mindset was at any point prior to his suicide.
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| | | 52 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 16:54
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Species - right now, it appears that Chavo got the text messages.
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| | | 53 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 18:12
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I have gone from sadness to sickness over the way this has evolved.
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| | | 54 | Peter N.
ID: 4152471
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 18:24
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This is beyond tragic and downright sickening.
WWE is already trying to cover their ass. Steroids can definitely wreck the mind. It's a shame this industry is so heavily dependent on them.
Latest from WWE
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| | | 55 | Tree
ID: 365172618
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 19:17
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good lord, it gets more and more bizarre...
In an interview with ESPN.com on Tuesday, Ballard indicated that (Benoit's son) had needle marks in his arms. The district attorney said he believed that the boy had been given growth hormones for some time because the family considered him undersized.
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| | | 56 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 21:10
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Just odd.
The only thing that kept popping up in my mind is he was in an argument with the wife (or found out something bad from her) lost it, and accidentally killed her. After that, it was a snowball effect. Everything was over already with her death because he knew he would kill himself from such a horrible thing happening. Then I guess before he did that he THOUGHT he was doing the right thing by sparing his kid from a terrible life - "my dad killed my mom and hung himself"
In a weird way the bible placement is an act of love and trying to take care of them even in the afterlife.
Thats the only thing I can think of. Just insane.
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| | | 57 | GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 060151121
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 22:22
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The timeline makes it even crazier.
He killed his wife Friday.
His son on Sat or Sun.
And then himself on Mon.
Absolutely insane and makes no sense.
They did find anabolic steroids in the house.
Cliff
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| | | 58 | Texas Flood
ID: 353452713
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 23:23
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I've been watching the talking heads tonight on CNN and FOX, and I can't believe how many of these booger eating wrasslers are comming on TV and saying what a great guy Benoit was.
Jezus fvcking krist he just killed his entire family. IMHO his corpse should be fed to Mike Vicks dogs!
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| | | 59 | Perm Dude
ID: 41572614
Tue, Jun 26, 2007, 23:29
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Yeah, that got me, too. I understand not wanting to talk badly about the dead, but (in the end) the guy was worse than scum. A wife beater and family killer who was a coward in the end.
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| | | 60 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 00:14
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Supposedly the steroids were legally prescribed (likely for his neck which has been operated on multiple times), FWIW.
Initially I felt sorrow and pity. With the rest of the details, it's now anger and sickening disgust. Sorry, I don't care how great you were at your profession, or how many other guys you helped, etc -- you are a double murderer, and the worst kind to kill your own child. PERIOD.
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| | | 61 | Skidazl
ID: 189142212
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 00:42
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I'm glad to finally see the last few posts being said. That is how I felt and I just couldn't believe all the sympathy being shown to this idiot earlier on.
re: 56 the only thing I find "odd" is your sentiment on this, it almost sounds like you are trying to justify his horrid actions. There is no justification. IMHO, this moron got off way too easy...
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| | | 63 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 00:51
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There is no justification, idiot.
We were simply talking about the crazy things that could have been going through his head.
It's idle speculation, that's it.
Of course there is no excuse for the devastation he caused. That's a f'n given dude.
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| | | 64 | Greg Rude
ID: 95592419
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 01:01
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Regarding the text messages he sent... WWE released the messages to the public.
Under WWE.com's "Benoit Timeline" it indicated he sent about 5 text messages just giving his physical address over and over. (Obviously to get someone there and find the bodies) The only text beside giving his address was something about the garage door being open, and the dogs being in the pool area.
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| | | 65 | Tree
ID: 52525275
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 06:53
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I've been watching the talking heads tonight on CNN and FOX, and I can't believe how many of these booger eating wrasslers are comming on TV and saying what a great guy Benoit was.
screw that.
by ALL accounts, the Chris Benoit many of these guys have known for the last 20+ years, WAS a great guy and a great family man who loved his children.
There is no question his final acts were beyond horrific. But there is also little question that some sort of mental illness or insanity was there too - some of his friends have said that Benoit was quickly and increasingly becoming paranoid - saying people were following him and things like that.
It appears he had a mental breakdown and basically went nuts. These things *do* happen to otherwise sane and "normal" people, and until more is known, i'm not willing to throw away the good things a healthy Chris Benoit did for people.
Yes, he did something that was pure evil. But to condemn a man who apparently had a mental illness? i'm not willing to do it.
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| | | 66 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 09:09
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Yeah, Tree is correct. If your brother killed someone would you spit on his grave? No... you'd say I can't believe he did that... I don't know what happened... what went wrong?... etc. Clearly acknowledging it was a horrible thing. But he's still family and you'd remember all the good things.
And as far as the "booger eatin' wrasslers", well at least we know how you feel about those of us that love and respect the wrestling business... Species, myself, MITH, Farn, Tree, Goat etc... thanks for disrespecting all of us with your ignorance of the subject and prejudice against a business you clearly don't understand.
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| | | 67 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 11:29
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I'm with Tree. These actions were awful and can never be defended. But the man was known as a loving man, good friend, and father for years. Until I hear otherwise I'm going to assume he had some kind of mental illness that was breaking him down and finally got the better of him. No one can defend his actions but without knowing his demons I refuse to spit on his grave.
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| | | 68 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 11:38
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Bret Hart once again weighed in on the Benoit murder/suicide in the Calgary Sun. “I can't begin to even understand what could drive somebody to do this,” said Hart, whose family helped train Benoit to become a pro wrestler. “The sad thing about it is I never saw Chris lose his composure and I never saw him get angry. He was always a very solid, sound, logical kind of guy. It’s totally the last thing you'd ever expect to come out of Chris Benoit. I think that's why everyone's having such a hard time coming to terms with this.”
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| | | 69 | Skidazl
ID: 189142212
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 12:28
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"There is no justification, idiot."
???
What does it matter what went thru this guy's head? He killed a 7 year-old child who, according to the reports I've seen, seemed to absolutely idolize his dad, shown by the posters of his dad on his wall and the Pro Wrestling paraphernalia around the room, and who did not deserve that short of a life.
I don't watch pro wrestling, but I do agree with GO, a LOT of people do love the sport, and there's really no reason to badmouth the participants.
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| | | 70 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 12:47
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True Skidazl - RAW is the highest rated show on cable TV. And highest among the much targeted 18-34 male demographic that advertisers want. Its not the 9 year old "booger eaters"... the thought that some hold on to. Just look at the cross-section of people on these boards that love it.
Thats the same person that still thinks Nascar is only a southern thing... and yet an average race (i.e. Talladega) TRIPLES the ratings of the NBA playoff game its up against - in New York City
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| | | 71 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 12:53
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TF, Skidazl
I didn't watch any of the talking head shows last night so I don't know what was said about him by other wrestlers. But understand that those who follow the backstage stuff any more than the casual fan were even more shocked than someone who saw this story develop without any such familiarity.
As you can imagine in that industry, there is no shortage of dubious characters and degenerates. The industry uses up the physical talents of these men and then often spits them out at an early age with nothing left and or little to show for it. And the lifestyle - being on the road for weeks or months at a time, the violent nature of the business, steroids, painkillers, recreational drugs, adversaries who will stab your back for a chance at some extra time in the spotlight, - will conjure demons in some of the best people.
But by every account I've ever seen from backstage publications and interviews from current and retired colleagues, Benoit was a model for young workers to pattern themselves after. Exceptionally skilled and always respectful of the industry, its history and his peers. He was one of the vets who would take young workers under his wing and try to steer them clear of trouble, and who would kick another worker's ass when he screwed up or didn't give the effort that the industry and his integrity demanded. The hardest workers always said it was an honor and a true pleasure to work with him in the ring. And the lazy ones who dogged it always hated it. He was one of the few who are widely respected for deserving and carrying that clout and for applying it with a veteran’s discretion. The most respected names always spoke of him as one of the great assets of the business.
None of that is meant to minimize or excuse what he did or to pay tribute to him. Its to show how much more tragic it is for someone regarded as a real pillar of the industry to carry this out as opposed to someone unfamiliar or some known degenerate. He was one of the last people in that world who you'd expect have his legacy end up attached to something like this and that makes the tragedy even more shocking and that much harder to grasp than if it were almost anyone else.
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| | | 72 | Skidazl
ID: 189142212
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 13:05
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probably good points MITH...
But seeing as I haven't watched wrestling in probably 20 years(Hulk Hogan was in his prime last I watched regularly), I have one question. Was this guy a "good" guy or a "bad" guy?
Judging by your response and some of the others, I would assume he was portrayed as a "good" guy.
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| | | 73 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 13:17
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Nowadays those lines are generally blurred and everyone is in-between. But I'd say overall Beniot was a "good guy" in storyline sense...
Anyone seen this stuff about his kid having "Fragile X Syndrome"? I don't really know anything about it (other than its similar to being autistic, but a bit more physical)... I wonder how that factored in. Seems like one more thing that was a cause of stress and tension among the parents I'd imagine.
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| | | 74 | Perm Dude
ID: 41525278
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 13:21
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a man who apparently had a mental illness
Maybe. Maybe not. You seem unwilling to allow people to call him what he was because you'd rather conjecture he was mentally ill. Was he also mentally ill when his wife got the restraining order? Wife beaters are scum, no matter whether he wasn't thinking straight because he chose to pump his body full of drugs.
GO: Chris Benoit is not my brother. And it isn't any kind of slap in the face to wrestling, wrestlers in particular or wrestling fans in general to point out that this man, who took the life of his own child, doesn't deserve the accolades in death for the entertainment you took from him when he was alive. Particularly if the steroids that brought you that entertainment contributed, in any way, to the death of his wife and son.
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| | | 75 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 13:42
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Skidazl
I have one question. Was this guy a "good" guy or a "bad" guy?
Judging by your response and some of the others, I would assume he was portrayed as a "good" guy.
To the typical fan, even the more casual ones (aside from children), this is mostly irrelevant. You'd have to be pretty stupid to not realize that a wrestler's storyline portrayal is theatre. To the more avid fans, its completely irrelevant. For the record, he's usually been portrayed as a face (as opposed to a heel) but as I've said, for those who take a closer look into the backstage goings-on, it doesn't matter. For example Shawn Michaels is another highly respected veteran worker who has often played the heel role and doesn't lose any respect among the avid fans for it. In fact, performance-wise, it proves him more versatile to be able to generate crowd heat.
For anyone who cares, its not hard to tell the difference between what is theatre and what is more genuine.
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| | | 76 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 14:03
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PD, I know he's not your brother... but to a lot of these other wrestlers who have know him and traveled together for 20 years - you'd have to see how close they would be. And how they are trying to remember the good and are wondering what the heck went wrong.
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| | | 77 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 14:46
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PD
it isn't any kind of slap in the face... to point out that this man... doesn't deserve the accolades in death for the entertainment you took from him when he was alive.
This is true. But the high regard for him among his collegues and fans is very noteworthy in discussing the shock and impact of his actions. Something like this hurts much more when it is committed by one of the last people you'd suspect capable of it.
Monday night's live program was cancelled in favor of a tribute to Benoit that included taped statements from coworkers and friends (ironicly fans had seen similar taped eulogic segments the week before to support an ongoing storyline regarding the death of Vince McMahon's character, making Monday's show all the more surreal). Anyway, another wrestler, Chavo Gurrero went on in his statemnet about Benoit as a father and how he would trust Benoit with his kids any time. The segment was obviously taped before the 10pm newser that night in which we learned that the incident was being investigated as a murder-suicide. Revealing the nature of the incident does not change the relevence of Guerrero's trust in Benoit. It, upon recalling Guerrero's trust in him, makes the incident even more tragic and harder to grasp.
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| | | 78 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 15:54
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Anyone seen this stuff about his kid having "Fragile X Syndrome"?
i did see that, and starting googling. it appears to be an ailment that combines autism and mental retardation - two issues that singularly would be difficult for a parent, but combined, seems like it would be overwhelming. (that is not to excuse the final weekend of Chris Benoit's life)
Maybe. Maybe not. You seem unwilling to allow people to call him what he was because you'd rather conjecture he was mentally ill. Was he also mentally ill when his wife got the restraining order? Wife beaters are scum, no matter whether he wasn't thinking straight because he chose to pump his body full of drugs.
i agree with you. any man who hits a woman has certainly crossed a line. it is scumbaggy, no doubt.
still, i believe there is more at work here.
i posted the following on another board, more related to wrestling. it was refering to an
article in the NY Times that quoted both Kevin Sullivan and Chris Nowinski:
i'm not sure if this is the proper place to discuss this - if it's not, apologies, and mods, feel free to delete the post or move it, but it is related to the comments Nowinski made in the above linked article.
i'd said to several friends and co-workers over the past couple of days that research is in its infancy stages regarding the effects that steroids and painkillers have on a brain that has been hit with multiple concussions.
lately there has been a lot of media attention on it - a few weeks ago, the NY times did a big story on it, focusing on Justin Strzelczyk, the former Pittsburgh Steeler lineman who crashed his car at 100 MPH into a truck carrying acid, while be chased by police going the wrong way on the road.
Not surprisingly, the NFL and the Players Union have kind of fought the notion that brain injuries played a role in the death of Strzelczyk (and others, such as all-time great Mike Webster). The players themselves, much like wrestlers, haven't been exactly helpful either.
If this sort of thing is happening to football players, logic follows that it would happen to wrestlers too.
and then what MITH said:
This is true. But the high regard for him among his collegues and fans is very noteworthy in discussing the shock and impact of his actions. Something like this hurts much more when it is committed by one of the last people you'd suspect capable of it.
it has literally been a parade of people who have known him for decades, vouching for him. To a man, they have said they never say a side of Benoit that even resembled this, and, sad to say, they probably spent more time with him than his wife did.
again - none of this is to excuse Benoit's actions. these are explanations, not excuses. this a search by the wrestling community to find a way to explain that a man who many viewed as a hero, who never displayed this sort of behaviour, could suddenly do something so deplorable.
and as for TF's comments - well, i think GO nailed it. People oughta try shutting up instead of trying to talk about something they know nothing about.
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| | | 79 | Perm Dude
ID: 445502713
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 16:05
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I'm not saying the support is necessarily misplaced, tree. I would be shocked, too, that someone I worked with was beating his wife for years and ended up killing her, his son, and then himself.
But 4 years ago his wife took out a restraining order against the guy, and no one seems to care, really--they are expressing shock at this sudden (to them) turn of events. Where is the support for the wife? Obviously she loved him enough to take him back even if he threatened her -- that's an option I think people should continue to have.
You guys know wrestling better than I do--how about linking to stories of 4 + years ago when his wife was obviously fearful enough to get a protection order against him? How about links to anyone about the wife (or son) other than "how could Benoit have done this to them?"
Some good might come out of this, I believe. Perhaps a harsher light on domestic abuse among professional athletes, with spousal and familial support. Perhaps some additional studies on steroid use (and their encouragement) among wrestlers.
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| | | 80 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 17:20
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how about linking to stories of 4 + years ago when his wife was obviously fearful enough to get a protection order against him?
I've looked. There's not much out there.
eontarionow had this yesterday:History Of Domestic Violence
While updating their coverage of the Benoit family tragedy, the Atlanta-Journal Constitution has posted a report that Nancy Benoit filed for divorce and an order of protection from Chris Benoit in May 2003.
Nancy Benoit alleged in the divorce petition that Chris, “lost his temper and threatened to strike the petitioner and cause extensive damage to the home and personal belongings of the parties, including furniture and furnishings. Petitioner is in reasonable fear for petitioner’s own safety and that of the minor child.”
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| | | 81 | Tree
ID: 29082512
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 17:41
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PD - there apparently isn't much about the domestic violence. there was the one incident that you've mentioned, which didn't come to light until after the deaths of the Benoit family.
a lot of us here who are fans keep up with professional wrestling to an absurd degree - as MITH said, we follow the out-of-ring stories as well - and no one here had heard of this incident before.
there was one reported incident, four years ago. that does not necessarily indicate a pattern of behaviour. we may never know if this was the norm. she had largely been out of the spotlight for the last decade, instead opting to manage her husband's career and take care of their son.
that's why it is so shocking PD - because for the most part, there was almost no indication or pattern that this sort of thing might happen.
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| | | 82 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 18:05
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That's true. You'd frequently hear about the disfunctional goings on; arrests, orders of protection, etc. of Sean Waltman and Joanie Laurer and plenty of others. Benoit was simply not someone you ever heard those kinds of reports about.
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| | | 83 | Tree
ID: 85132718
Wed, Jun 27, 2007, 19:40
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someone on another board i post on is attemping to help make sure they examine Benoit's brain for post-concussion and other types of brain damage. so far, the original coroner refused, but it looks like now it's going up from the county and state level.
what we do know so far, as taken from that other board.
The main points:
- The case has been moved up from Fayetteville county office to the State level, so disgregard anything about Dr. Mowell.
- Chris Nowinski didn't talk to to the ME's office personally, the doctor who works with him did.
- They will have the samples of various parts of the brain, so no worry about it being destroyed soon.
- We should wait until tomorrow morning as WWE & Chris Nowinski are trying to get it done through normal channels.
- If nothing has happened by then, we should start doing what we can.
- It might not be the best idea to directly contact the state's coroner, so they don't construe anything as harrassment or get lots of calls from idiots. This also depends on if anything happens by the morning. The best move RIGHT NOW seems to be going through the media (wrestling & mainstream).
- Nobody knows how to get in touch with Benoit's parents to get permission, so if ANYONE knows how, email Dave Meltzer, Bryan Alvarez, and/or Alex Marvez.
here, the story has been placed on Digg.
Chris Nowinski's site, which has a lot of info on post-concussion syndrome.
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| | | 84 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 14:16
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Got this from another board...
"Here's a new twist:
Benoit's wikipedia page had the news of Nancy's death quite some time before the cops discovered the bodies, based on the timestamps. And the IP address of the change was from Stamford Connecticut, home of the WWE."
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| | | 85 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 14:18
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Wikipedia
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| | | 86 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 15:24
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That is very strange.
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| | | 87 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 15:57
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Benoit murder/suicide to be talked about on tonight's "Showbiz Tonight" on Headline News channel on 11pm ET:
PROFESSIONAL WRESTLING'S TRAGEDY
The unbelievable tragedy of Chris Benoit -- was roid rage behind the murder-suicide that has rocked the world of professional wrestling? WWE Chairman Vince McMahon gets grilled on TV. Does this spell the beginning of the end for the popular sports and entertainment phenomenon that is professional wrestling? The heartbreaking story tonight on Showbiz Tonight.
These people are ridiculous. Thats like saying the Bengals and PacMan Jones was gonna be the end of the NFL!
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| | | 88 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 16:01
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let me practice...
Goin' Postal! USPS TRAGEDY
The unbelievable tragedy of Joe Smith -- was work related stress behind the murder-suicide that has rocked the world of the United States Postal Service? USPS Chairman gets grilled on TV. Does this spell the beginning of the end for the popular mail and delivery phenomenon that is the US Post Office? The heartbreaking story tonight on Showbiz Tonight.
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| | | 89 | chode
ID: 293141514
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:15
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I totally agree. Calling WWE pro wrestling a sport is ridiculous.
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| | | 90 | Tree
ID: 385182816
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:33
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no one called it a sport, jackass. it was called sports and entertainment phenomenon which is a fairly accurate description.
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| | | 91 | chode
ID: 293141514
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:44
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Personal insults and cute spins, the fundamentals of Treesham. Thanks, I'd expect no less from you.
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| | | 92 | Species
Dude
ID: 07724916
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 17:56
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WWE's handling of this has been mostly positive. They realized they F'd up giving Benoit a tribute show before all the facts came out. Vince is taking his lumps as the media turns this into a steroids witch hunt. The media is having a field day and I think a great amount of their focus is entirely misguided.....but they want sensationalism and they are going to get it even if they have to exaggerate.
But WWE does NOT impress me when throwing this out there (borrowing from ewrestlingnews.com):
The following article comes from WWE.com:
Benoit’s son suffered from Fragile X Syndrome; speculation over whether pressure was too much
Written: June 27, 2007
I am a parent of a special needs child. Undoubtedly it creates a greatly added strain on both parents and on your relationship. I would imagine for a man like Benoit - as someone related to 'athletics', he must be a proud man....and to have your son be unable to acheive a higher calling due to a genetic flaw I'm sure did not sit well with him. I'm sure Daniel's affliction caused added stress in his life and the life of his wife.
But it is sickening to me to have the WWE glorify this as potentially one of a myriad of factors that lead to this tragedy. Daniel's affliction was not his fault.....he didn't ask to be a special needs child. To be fair, I would imagine that it did add to Chris Benoit's burden in life and it is a piece of the entire puzzle....but I guess I just feel that there are plenty of other factors that could be focused upon, and WWE is trying to deflect as much as they can away from steroids and the lifestyle/demands of the professional wrestler as possible. I guess THAT is what pisses me off, because they are dragging an innocent child into the spotlight, pointing, and saying "SEE! Benoit couldn't stand the heartache of his son's affliction - THAT probably put him over the edge". BULLSHIT!
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| | | 93 | Tree
ID: 405152820
Thu, Jun 28, 2007, 21:18
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Personal insults and cute spins, the fundamentals of Treesham. Thanks, I'd expect no less from you.
what's good for the goose is good for the gander.
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| | | 95 | Toral
ID: 575542418
Fri, Jun 29, 2007, 22:45
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I am not a wrestling fan and know nothing about Chris Benoit. However it seems to be that Benoit's son had a form of severe mental retardation accompanied by autism.
It is not unusual for parents in such a condition to commit killing[of child]/suicide. Indeed the parent who does not seriously consider such a thing is statistically unusual. And, the more the parent loves such a child, the more likely it is that such a killing/suicide will be attempted if there is any reason to believe that good care for the kid is in danger. I assume Benoit was well-off, meaning that he could buy care for his kid if necessary. So I offer -- purely as speculation -- the possibility that some difference as to care of the kid was relevant to the incident.
Toral
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| | | 96 | Pancho Villa
ID: 2565398
Sat, Jun 30, 2007, 00:51
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When the Ultimate Warrior decked me in 1990 in Salt Lake while I was filling in as ring announcer, my attorney wanted me to sue the (then)WWF for millions, based on the organization's seemingly lax policy on their entertainers using steroids. My attorney assured me there would be at least a six figure settlement if we chose to pursue that course. He reasoned that the type of negative press that would be generated by such a suit would either force the WWF(also run by McMahon, who personally called me the day after the incident)to either keep quiet with a large settlement to me, or risk exposing the massive amounts of illegal drug use running rampant within the organization.
I was more than happy to take a relatively small and quick settlement at the time. I can only wonder if I had taken my lawyer's advice long ago, if it would have had some effect in establishing a policy that would have negated the type of alleged abuse that led to this tragedy.
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| | | 97 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Sat, Jun 30, 2007, 01:02
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Again why is everyone saying that Roids is the main and only cause for this act?
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| | | 98 | Tree
ID: 21525301
Sat, Jun 30, 2007, 02:34
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I can only wonder if I had taken my lawyer's advice long ago, if it would have had some effect in establishing a policy that would have negated the type of alleged abuse that led to this tragedy.
not likely. in 1993, three years after your incident, there was the infamous Vince McMahon steroid trial. If anything was going to change things, that was going to be it.
regarding steroids and how they relate to this tragedy -
as i said earlier, i believe that the cocktail of steroids, painkillers, and multiple concussions can lead to brain damage and mental illness.
but the 'roids are only part of the equation. this being roid rage just doesn't seem likely. it's something the media grabbed hold of, and now won't let go.
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| | | 99 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 15:41
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They are now saying his Doctor was at the house the day that his wife was most likely killed, and they just arrested him for giving out illegal drugs I believe.
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| | | 100 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 15:48
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Do you have a source for that? That's interesting...
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| | | 101 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Mon, Jul 02, 2007, 15:58
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Attorney: Benoit's doctor charged with improperly prescribing drugs in federal probe
i had heard this was going to happen. as for Astin being in Benoit's house the day Nancy was killed, i hadn't heard that anywhere. however, it has been reporter - including in this story - that Benoit was in Astin's office the day she was murdered.
the next thing that may come out is that Benoit killed his son with a wrestling hold.
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| | | 102 | Punk42AE
Donor
ID: 036635522
Tue, Jul 03, 2007, 00:55
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I wrote that wrong and ment he visited the doc that day, not the doc came there. And also Tree this is from a different MB...
"The London papers were reporting that he killed his son with the Crippler Cross-Face.
This is how far this sad story has roamed.
I really believe this case is an extreme example and not the norm. Fact is most wrestlers don't do this."
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| | | 103 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 12:55
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JoeSportsFan on the inaccurate media coverage....
I know we will all read this as we are wrestling fans. But I think its just as important that the NON-wrestling fans who have been checking into this thread give this a read... it just shows how ridiculous and inaccurate this media coverage has been. It focuses just on one topic - the # of deaths - but it certainly shows how lazy the reporters are with this fact. Just imagine how lazy they are with the other facts about a business they don't understand.
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| | | 104 | sarge33rd
ID: 99331714
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 14:33
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Thanks for that link GO. While I'm but a "passing" fan of pro-wrestling, it is readily apparent that too many in the media, are reporting what they think, vs what they have bothered to actually learn.
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| | | 105 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 15:01
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They certainly make it seem like everyone is on steroids and this is why they are all dying. And your average person doesn't know the "real" story of these people, they are just a name on a list. And because some "credible" journalist on tv is spewing out the information, well then it must be true!
Perfect example. I was watching one show - CNN I think - and the lady was listing some of the names (and obviously reading off a notecard as they was mispronouncing them left and right) and for example... listed Yokuzuna dying from a heart attack. She then when on to imply that this was because of steriods. Miss... do you even know who Yokozuna is? Do you think the fact that he was 600+ lbs had anything to do with his heart failure? Do your freakin' research!
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| | | 106 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:17
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On one list of wrestler deaths, the following wrestling organizations were at one time, places of employment for some of the dead wrestlers:
AAA, All Japan, AWA, CWA, ECW, EMLL FILL, GWF, IPW, IWA, MECW, MSW, New Japan, NWA, NWCW, NWF, Pacific Northwest Wrestling, OWW, PWF, SOW, Stampede Wrestling, SWCW, TCW, UCW, USWA, UWF, WCCA, WCW, WWA, WWE, WWF, WWWC
Saying "a wrestler died" is a lot like saying "a baseball player died" but only if you're counting...
American League, National League, International League, Pacific Coast League, Eastern League, Southern League, Texas League, Carolina League, California League, South Atlantic League, Midwest League, Northwest League, Gulf Coast League, Dominican Summer League, Cape Cod League, Japanese Central League, Japanese Pacific League, Mexican League, Patriot League, Atlantic Coast Conference, etc, etc etc.
Given those parameters, how many baseball players have died since 1985?
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| | | 107 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:29
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Thats a great comparison and a good illustration for a non-wrestling fan.
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| | | 108 | Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:32
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I think that is a good example too (though nealy all of those leagues are under MLB), but I believe that steriods are a problem in wrestling, and each wrestling organization needs to step up about the problem.
None of them can refuse to step up simply because there are other organizations, just like MLB shouldn't refuse to police their own simply because there are other leagues.
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| | | 109 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:36
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Read any wrestler's autobiography. Leagues like the EMLL need to step up in more ways than just drug-testing.
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| | | 110 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:39
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I think few would disagree that WWE likely has the most rampant problem. In truth, WWE has stepped up. Many of the (physically) biggest performers lost notable muscle mass following Eddie Guerrero's death, which initiated the testing policy. But they need to do much more. To what extent their testing procedures come with winks and nudges we can't know.
And it's no secret that WWE actively seeks the biggest bodies it can find to bolster the freak-show aspect of its productions. Much can be made up in lack of in-ring skill or personality if a guy is big enough.
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| | | 111 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 454491514
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 16:42
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Err... Much can be made up for lack of in-ring skill or personality...
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| | | 112 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 17:37
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The freak show aspect also leads to this I would think. You get all these giants (Andre, BigShow, Khali, Big John Stud etc) and HUGE guys like Yokuzuna, Viscera etc.
These extremes must make these men more susceptable to health problems from the strain that their bodies put on their organs.
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| | | 113 | Tree
ID: 10656516
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 18:13
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AAA, All Japan, AWA, CWA, ECW, EMLL FILL, GWF, IPW, IWA, MECW, MSW, New Japan, NWA, NWCW, NWF, Pacific Northwest Wrestling, OWW, PWF, SOW, Stampede Wrestling, SWCW, TCW, UCW, USWA, UWF, WCCA, WCW, WWA, WWE, WWF, WWWC
haha. fantastic. Many of the promotions above have been out of business for years. some, were extremely minor promotions. And others are the exact same promotion, just with a different name.
it should also be noted that in many cases, wrestlers change promotions with a regularity that makes the baseball free agent market look silly. and, until they make it to the WWE, they're often wrestling wherever there is a payday, so in a given month, a wrestler could wrestle a dozen promotions, easy.
but I believe that steriods are a problem in wrestling, and each wrestling organization needs to step up about the problem.
None of them can refuse to step up simply because there are other organizations, just like MLB shouldn't refuse to police their own simply because there are other leagues.
the above statement pretty much shows how little the non-wrestling fan knows about the wrestling business.
let me say i agree with you - i've got friends who are wrestlers, and the mere thought that some of them might be dead in 15 years due to things like steriod abuse freaks me out.
never mind the fact that the vast majority of wrestlers are not tied to one promotion, you can't expect Rinkydink Wrestling Federation to have the funds, nor power, to force their wrestlers to pass some sort of steroid testing.
these are promotions often making little or no money, and in many cases, these are wrestlers often making little or no money. getting them to commit to a program as individuals, just wouldn't work.
the WWE could, however, step up, and force wrestlers at that level to undergo some real testing procedures. which brings me to:
In truth, WWE has stepped up. Many of the (physically) biggest performers lost notable muscle mass following Eddie Guerrero's death, which initiated the testing policy. But they need to do much more. To what extent their testing procedures come with winks and nudges we can't know.
it's all relative, MITH. their testing procedures are very secret, and little is known about them. one of the few things that is known is some of the ratios - and i could be wrong here, so don't quote me - but they have a 10:1 standard for testesterone. the standard in international sports, is 4:1, so the WWE is 2 1/2 times higher than that.
you also have to look at the guys who lost mass - a lot of them were Chris Masters' type mid-carders at best. if HHH tested positive, do you think there would really be any punishment? and even though Vince is a performer, he is actually under an "announcer" contract, for the sole purpose of being able to avoid the tests.
And it's no secret that WWE actively seeks the biggest bodies it can find to bolster the freak-show aspect of its productions. Much can be made up (for) lack of in-ring skill or personality if a guy is big enough.
and we have Vince to blame for this.
prior to Vince rising to the top, wrestlers looked like fighters and tough guys. Only a handful - from Billy Graham to Ken Patera and a few others - looked like they walked off the weightlifting areas of Venice Beach.
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| | | 114 | Perm Dude
ID: 3164859
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 18:32
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the above statement pretty much shows how little the non-wrestling fan knows about the wrestling business.
Your rebuttal this is seems to be that the guys making money off wrestlers aren't making enough to force wrestlers into non-steriod agreements? This is a joke, right? This is like saying that small businesses don't make enough money to enforce minumum wage laws.
Let me amend your statement:
the above statement pretty much shows how little the non-wrestling fan knows about the wrestling business apologists.
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| | | 115 | blue hen
Leader
ID: 710321114
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 18:56
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They have to pay for the tests, don't they? Most of the wrestlers at that level are underpaid not because the promoters are making a lot of money, but because the promoters AREN'T making a lot of money.
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| | | 116 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 01629107
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 19:42
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PD I think Tree has a better point than you give him credit for. Small operations bring in hardly any money at all.
By comparing steroids and small wrestling productions to minimum wage and small businesses, you seem to suggest that if a small outfit can't afford the costs involved with strict testing standards, they shouldn't be able to afford to exist. Further, businesses are required by law to pay minimum wage. there is no law I'm aware of that requires businesses to test employees for illegal substances in their systems. Hopefully you aren't advocating such a law.
After all, aside from performance enhancing drugs, we also that the wrestling industry is rampant with recreational use of illegal drugs, perhaps accounting for as many health issues among performers, possibly more. Should these outfits be chastized for not testing for addictive or otherwise harmful recreational substances?
Further, as Tree alludes, many wrestlers on the smaller circuits work as free lancers, doing a show for one company one night and another the next, another roadblock to making mandatory testing. What about circus and carnival performers? Do you know that trapeeze artists, for example, don't use performance enhancing drugs? Should they be tested? What, exactly, is the difference between a small local wrestling outfit and a traveling carnival show?
Do semi-pro football leagues test for steroids? If a smaller outfit can't afford to test players should they not be allowed to exist?
We have testing in pro sports because of our desire to keep the integrity of their competition in tact (or to restore it, if you prefer) and the size of their audiences and its place in American society and the recognition that children idolize the athletes as role models.
As WWE productions have achieved a similar status as a national spectator events, I think it reasonable to expect them to impose similar standards upon themselves. But these smaller outfits which stage their events in VFW halls and on county fairgrounds are a much different thing.
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| | | 117 | Great One
ID: 201155199
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 19:58
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A non-WWE show is usually just happy to break even and a promoter may make enough to live on and just scrape by. Most of these guys go bankrupt and blow their life savings "for the love of the game" so to speak.
So you are gonna tell this guy that he needs to pay for steriod and drug testing on the independent contractors he has hired for that show? How in the hell can they afford that? and whats the motivation when that same wrestler is just going to work for another company the next night and may never even come back to work for you again? Its not like they are under contract (WWE and TNA being exceptions).
You can act all high and mighty about what they "should do"... but for the all reasons MITH points out as well, its just not a feasible option. Much like the reporters we just vilified for not having factual information, perhaps you should gain a greater understanding of the business before you throw your opinions around. And considering that Tree actually works in this crazy business part time, we're all more inclined to respect his point of view.
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| | | 118 | Tree
ID: 10656516
Thu, Jul 05, 2007, 20:48
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Your rebuttal this is seems to be that the guys making money off wrestlers aren't making enough to force wrestlers into non-steriod agreements? This is a joke, right? This is like saying that small businesses don't make enough money to enforce minumum wage laws.
no, this isn't a joke. this is the wrestling business. and with all due respect, this is something i know quite a bit about, and frankly, probably more than anyone else on this board. i've been a wrestling fan for 30+ years, i've got numerous friends who are wrestlers, and i do behind-the-scenes work for a pro wrestling company.
can you even name the three largest wrestling companies in the U.S.?
i'll save you the time - the World Wrestling Entertainment (WWE) is a clear number one, and arguably, Total Non Stop Action (TNA) and Ring of Honor (ROH), are two and three.
TNA - the second largest wrestling company in this country, runs in the red. extremely so. they lose millions of dollars every year, and have continued to bleed that much for the entire give years of their existence.
in the first few years of the company's existence, TNA was losing over a million dollars a month.
smaller companies aren't much different, only in that they're losing money on a much smaller scale. there is a term called a "money mark", and that's someone who puts up money in a wrestling promotion, not really caring if they lose money. they just want to be part of the business.
let me give you an example of how a lot of wrestling companies work. we'll call my imaginary company the PDW.
let's say I find a cool armory in Des Moines, that will let me rent the place for 500 bucks a night, provided i hire a security guard at 10 bucks an hour for the 5 hour show. i also have to rent chairs, and i can get 200 of them for 50 bucks, provided i pick them up. (for those keeping track at home, that's 600 bucks in expenses so far).
now, i book my card. i want 8 matches total, including two tag team matches - that's going to be 20 wrestlers total. so, i reach out to 18 local guys to round out the card, and 2 national guys to main event, so i can have something to draw fans in.
10 of the local guys will work 25 bucks, four of them for 50 bucks, and four for 100 bucks. the two national guys each demand 300 bucks, plus airfare. And, i have to have a couple refs, and they're gonna work for 25 bucks each. so, that's 1500 bucks in talent, and we'll call airfare 200 bucks, to bring that total to 1900 bucks. adding in the 600 bucks for building expenses, and that's $2500.
OH! i still have to rent a ring, don't i!! well, local wrestler Dewey Cheatum offers his ring for 400 bucks, plus i have to book a match between him and his friend Will Ripuoff. for 50 bucks each. so, now we're at 3000 bucks.
fortunately, i don't have to spend a lot on marketing. i have a stapler and some staples, and i run off a bunch of fliers at my day job. so, total cost, zippo. i put up flyers all over town, and man, i am psyched for the debut show of the PDW!
so, now is the night of the big show, and an hour before doors open, there's a line of about 10 adults and four kids outside. at 15 bucks for adults and 10 bucks for kids, there's already 190 bucks.
and slowly, but surely, they trickle in. by the time the show starts, there's 100 adults and 50 kids there. 150 people - that's a nice little draw for a small indy wrestling show.
and then, i count the money, dollar signs in my eyes. man! that is....2750 bucks!!!! YESS!!!
and then i realize, that doesn't even cover my expenses. i'm 250 bucks short. and now i gotta figure out who i'm gonna stiff. or, maybe i'll just run off with the cash box, and not pay anyone.
PD - these things go on EVERY weekend in wrestling. i've had friends who had the promoter come up to them after the show and say "sorry, all i have to pay you is a thank you, and a hand shake,", and i've had other friends who were left unpaid when the promoter split with the cash box.
and you know what? the next time that promoter has a show, there is always going to be someone willing to work for him, hoping for a pay day.
sometimes, promoters know they won't have enough money, so they have what are called "ticket-seller" matches, which is where they do a sort of deal where they hand out a bunch of tickets to kids they know, and whichever kids sell the most tickets, get to have a match on the show.
these are often UNTRAINED kids, who know what they know by watching on TV, or wrestling with their buddy in the backyard. and sometimes, these kids get hurt. earlier this year, at a show in NJ (or maybe NY), a kid broke his neck.
i'm not saying that all wrestling is filled with scumbags, but a lot of it is. for every reputable promoter putting on a show, there's two or three who aren't.
Let me amend your statement:
the above statement pretty much shows how little the non-wrestling fan knows about the wrestling business apologists.
i won't be a smart ass like you.
i know what i'm talking about, and i am FAR from an apologist. as i said earlier, i hate the fact i may very well have friends who die because of their wrestling-related abuses. i said that earlier.
so far, i've been "lucky" in that no one i knew directly - just people i had one or two degrees of seperation from - have died.
do i think you can clean up the business? yea, to a certain extent. i think the WWE has to start it, because if younger guys coming up see they can succeed in the WWE without being jacked up on steroids, then, they'll stop doing it.
but the WWE testing policy is a mystery, so it's nearly impossible to judge. but, one thing the WWE tends to do is bury smaller, better wrestlers, instead choosing to highlight the musclebound freaks.
still, going back to what you've said, and i'm not trying to be a jerk, but i really don't think you understand the wrestling business in the slightest bit, and while your intentions are noble, the realities, are not.
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| | | 119 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Fri, Jul 06, 2007, 15:10
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and, of course, the day after i make the post above, it comes to pass, once again.
The last three WSU shows were great and stacked to the gills, but not profitable at all. The DVDs are selling, but not enough to off-set the money put into it. Knowing that he was going to lose money on the shows before he even announced the shows publicly, I warned him not to run & to cut the budget. There was no need for so many flights for the June double-shot which just occurred. There was no point putting on a $5000 show in Lake Hiawatha, a place where some indy promoters go to die. And this wasn't the beginning of it.
while i'm not a big fan of the site this was posted on, and i've been known to have my beefs with the "writer" who posted this article, it is a pretty solid - in a completely f*cked up way - of how the Indy wrestling business works...
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| | | 120 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 11:31
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Post 78
i'd said to several friends and co-workers over the past couple of days that research is in its infancy stages regarding the effects that steroids and painkillers have on a brain that has been hit with multiple concussions.
lately there has been a lot of media attention on it - a few weeks ago, the NY times did a big story on it, focusing on Justin Strzelczyk, the former Pittsburgh Steeler lineman who crashed his car at 100 MPH into a truck carrying acid, while be chased by police going the wrong way on the road.
Not surprisingly, the NFL and the Players Union have kind of fought the notion that brain injuries played a role in the death of Strzelczyk (and others, such as all-time great Mike Webster). The players themselves, much like wrestlers, haven't been exactly helpful either.
If this sort of thing is happening to football players, logic follows that it would happen to wrestlers too.
According to wsbtv.com out of Atlanta, the test results on Chris Benoit's brain suggest that a series of concussions may have caused the rage that led him to murder his wife, his son and commit suicide.
In the article, Dr. Julian Bailes, head of neurosurgery at WVU, said the results of tests on Chris Benoit's brain were striking. Showing a slide of Benoit's brain tissue Wednesday morning on ABC's Good Morning America Bailes pointed out what he called abnormalities. "These are dead brain cells," said Bailes.
When asked how much of that he found Bailes replied, "It was extensive, throughout Chris's brain. It was striking and maybe shocking in the extent." The researcher said Benoit's brain scan looked similar to those of Alzheimer's patients. He described Benoit's brain as "very abnormal, something you should never see in a 40-year old."
Bailes has done similar research on the brains of former professional football players who committed suicide. He found similar brain damage in their cases; theroizes that repeated concussions can lead to dementia, which can contribute to severe behavioral problems. He goes onto say that a pattern emerges, "a recurring theme of failure in their personal lives and their business lives, depression and then ultimate suicide."
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| | | 121 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 11:55
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According to wsbtv.com out of Atlanta, the test results on Chris Benoit's brain suggest that a series of concussions may have caused the rage that led him to murder his wife, his son and commit suicide.
which is basically what i said going all the way back to post 41, more than two months ago.
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| | | 122 | Great One
Sustainer
ID: 053272014
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 12:45
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But to the media, thats not as exciting as ROID RAGE!
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| | | 123 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 15:53
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these results certainly help a little to remove the steroid stigma and it being the main reason.
Here's my problem....
Why did the family and investigators use this particular institute to do the testing? This institute was founded by Christopher Nowinski, who as most people know, was a WWE wrestler a few years back. You'd think, knowing there was a conflict off interest, they'd have chosen somewhere else to do the testing.
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| | | 124 | Tree
ID: 3533298
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 16:11
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not at all Farn.
Nowinski - who's own career ended due to multiple concussions - is helping to pave the way to an understanding of just how dangerous concussions are.
well before Benoit's actions, the Sports Legacy Institute was looking at how concussions may have caused the early deaths and "freak outs" by some football players such as Justin Strzelczyk, Mike Webster, Terry Long and Andre Waters.
it was just a matter of time before it crossed over into wrestling, considering the amount of head injuries these guys get.
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| | | 125 | Farn
Leader
ID: 451044109
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 16:29
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fair enough Tree. I guess I don't mind them doing testing although I'd get another company to run tests as well to solidify these results.
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| | | 126 | Perm Dude
ID: 34811516
Wed, Sep 05, 2007, 17:11
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Truth is, though, we don't know what caused his problems, neither the marriage problems nor the final murder-suicide.
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| | | 127 | Mith
ID: 2894309
Tue, May 12, 2009, 13:50
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ESPN NEWNAN, Ga. -- The personal doctor to a professional wrestler who killed himself, his wife and their 7-year-old son was sentenced to 10 years in prison for illegally distributing prescription drugs to patients.
Dr. Phil Astin, 54, was sentenced Tuesday after pleading guilty Jan. 29 to 175 counts that including illegally distributing prescription drugs.
World Wrestling Entertainment's Chris Benoit killed his family and then himself in 2007 in their suburban Atlanta home. A medical examiner couldn't say whether the steroids Astin prescribed for Benoit played a role in the deaths.
U.S. District Judge Jack Camp said there was no doubt the 54-year-old Astin tried to help hundreds of patients at his western Georgia clinic. But the judge said he could not overlook the fact that two patients died as a result of Astin's misconduct.
Astin pleaded guilty in January to a 175-count federal indictment. He also admitted that prescriptions he issued resulted in the overdose death of a female patient in 2007.
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| | | 128 | Mike D
Leader
ID: 041831612
Tue, May 12, 2009, 17:39
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I would think a civil suit would be filed if it has not already been.
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