Self Editor

Forum: gen
Page 490
Subject: Current Draft Order

Posted by: Tree - Donor [337442918] Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 07:11

here we go - obviously it could change if people adjust their keepers, but currently:

1. Fock Fear, Drink Beer - Adam H
2. S.C.Y.T.H.E. - Tree
3. Team Sucka - Farn
4. Flying Jalapeno's - MITH
5. Rolling Thunder - Wiggs
6. Never Leave Your Buddy's Behind - Great Onr
7. Controlled Destruction - Kev
8. Old Italian Disorder - MIST
9. Eight Henchmen - Goat Locker
10. It's Not For Everyone - Mike D
11. Team Bring It - Blue Hen & Mach
12. Endangered - Species

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 09:28

Tree- can you post the formula to the draft order again. I am baffled as to how my 2nd to last finish plus horrible keepers isn't the #2 pick.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 09:36

ok, i found the formula, now its time to argue it.

the idea behind the keeper points is accurate. but how can me finishing 11th be worth just 2 more points than you finishing 9th. Or better yet, my team is only deemed to be worth 10 more points than Species team? Seems crazy considering the value of keeper points.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:17

i'll post it after this post, but to explain:

Farn - your keepers ranked 7th in points scored. that means there were five teams below you in that category.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:20

I don't know what the answer is to this. Straight reversal of finish could be used, as discussed in prior threads, and would typically be okay by most GMs. But when the finish is based on injuries, you'd see a team picking high and having injured guys return that ends up being stacked. That wouldn't last though more than 1 season, and would continue to allow other teams to excel. Adding in keeper "points" complicates things, but in general, it is a sound idea. The execution is still in question though.

AdamH
ID: 41710121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:33

I know the entire FA list isn't out yet, nor are certain things finalized, but since I do have the #1 pick, I'll just save some time and let you know that I'm taking Brock Lesnar.

Just in case I'm not around tomorrow night or something. I don't want to hold things up.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:33

Team	Owner	Keepers	Pts	Pts Rank	Standing	Total	Overall Rank	Draft Pick
Fock Fear, Drink Beer	Adam H	Noble	646	12	12	24	12	1
		Nidia
		Kim
		Golddust
S.C.Y.T.H.E.	Tree	Buh-Buh Ray	1048	10	9	19	9.5	2
		Chavo
		M. Jindrak
		B. Kendrick
Team Sucka	Farn	Big Show	1317	7	11	18	9	3
		Victoria
		Rosey
		Lawler
Flying Jalapenos	MITH	V. McMahon	1100	9	6	15	7.5	4
		Trish
		Rodney Mack
		Nunzio
Rolling Thunder	Wiggs	Goldberg	1399	4	10	14	7	5*
		Batista
		Flair
		Cade
Never Leave Your Buddy's Behind	Great One	Shawn Michaels	1328	6	8	14	7	6*
		Rhyno
		Torrie Wilson
		Ultimo Dragon
Controlled Destruction	Kev	Bischoff	895	11	3	14	7	7*
		Kidman
		Hurricane
		Coach
Old Italian Disorder	Mist	Test	1342	5	7	12	6	8
		C. Palumbo
		Undertaker
		Bradshaw
Eight Henchmen	Goat Locker	A-Train	1249	8	2	10	5	9
		D-Von
		R. Dupre
		Doug Basham
It's Not for Everyone	Mike D	Kane	1572	3	5	8	4	10
		Tajiri
		Jazz
		Gowan
Team Bring It	Blue Hen & Mach	Benjamin	1670	2	4	6	3	11
		Grenier
		Lita
		The Rock
Endangered	Species	Benoit	2116	1	1	2	1	12
		Christian
		M. Hardy
		S. McMahon

Pts = Keeper Pts
Pts Rank = Order of Keeper Pts
Standing = Finishing position
Total = Standing plus Pts Rank
Overall Rank = Total divided by two
Draft Pick = Ranking over Overall Rank

* Ties in Overall Rank broken by
worst finishing position getting higher
draft pick

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:39

looking at the chart above - and yes, obviously i'm biased - i think the system does work.

some people leaped a few spots, some people fell.

for me - the fact that i had injuries, a bunch of late bloomers, and not really anyone that scored high - i mean, my top scorer - the guy i CAN'T keep - was the 20th overall best scorer.

in this case, it worked in my favor. Obviously, the same thing happened for MITH - Farn - you had two guys in the top 13 - one you lost, one you kept - and that's gonna work against you.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:45

Looks like I dropped 2 spots. But the close finish between 3-5 places in the league almost nullifies that. Sure, I'd rather pick 8th than 10th, but hey.........

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 10:59

So basically if I want the #2 pick all I have to do is dump say Rosie and keep Molly? That I believe would vault me into #2

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:06

Looks good Tree.
As always thanks for the effort.
Farn, I think that is right.

Cliff

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:07

This is wrong. The total of my 4 keepers is 1534. I think you must have calculated eligible points. Remember, we decided to go with the overall totals for each wrestler. I suspect my poor management with regard to which wrestlers I srtarted from week to week will probably yield the opposite effect on my draft position that this method did.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:08

Farn #9, Molly isn't yours to keep or drop. She was on my roster at season's end.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:11

oh my bad;

who are my other 3 choices? i lost track.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:12

Wait, find out where I dropped her. Cause as of week 31 I still had her.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:20

little reseach shows MITH added Molly to his roster even though I had never dropped her.

Post 80

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:26

It appears you are right, Farn. I picked up Molly in post 80 of this thread, and the pickup became "official" in post 3 here. I don't think we can go back and change points at this stage, but if you've been starting Molly often in the last 6 weeks, it seems that we've both been taking points for her. Sorry about the mishap.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 11:45

MITH - the overall points were used for determining keepers, but that was never discussed in regards to determining draft position.

i still have a really tough time using overall points for anything, especially since they weren't posted with any sort of regularlity this past season (that will change for the upcoming season), and i'd be loathe to change this too.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 27735145
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 12:47

that doesnt seem right that i finish 10 and pick as if i finished 8. I will make a change to my keepers if that is the case.

I will keep dawn and drop flair

kev
ID: 3155515
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 12:52

So by Keeping Coach, who is just about to make his "push" so to say, and not Nash, who outscored him by about 200-300 points, I vaulted 3 draft spots? Interesting.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 13:53

This is something i was afraid would happen - and why i feared giving people the opportunity to change keepers - it seems unethical to me to change keepers for the sole purpose of moving draft positions....

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 13:56

Tree,
I agree with your assessment.
We need to make a decision quickly on what we want to do.
We've had quite a discussion on this, and I thought everybody understood how it would work and planned accordingly.
Apparently not.
By the way, this is not meant to piss anybody off, just think we need to move on.

Cliff

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:05

i mean. if that's the case. there's nothing to stop me from deciding i'm just gonna keep Chavo and Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh-Buh Buh-Buh Ray, thusly improving my draft position.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:13

We don't have to keep 4, so I could just keep Doug Basham and move up one more draft pick.
Of course, that makes no sense.
I kept the four I did hoping I can guess what is happening with storylines.
I don't think we need to be making changes now that everybody set their rosters.

Cliff

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:15

You have to keep 4 though----that was the decision. To alleviate all of this, we could just go by finish. It's simpler and seems to mirror what a lot of people expected as far as draft position. wiggs shouldn't have to make that move.

Or, we can keep it as above and allow for the "strategy" of keeping a lesser point scorer (Dawn Marie) to improve draft position. Up to everyone I guess.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:30

This is frustrating, I thought we were clear on this. Post 59:

In my opinion, total points for the entire season should be counted when we are determining our highest scorers and also the scores of our keepers.

Post 66:

Frankly, with the way I've underused Vince and selected my roster so poorly in so many weeks, I'm sure I am probably going to see enough points added in (points that don't help my team in the standings) to knock me down a spot or two in the draft.

The exact same logic that applies to using overall points for determining the keepers applies equally as apropriately to measuring the strength of the keepers. This obviously isn't a ploy on my part to help my position, as I am possibly giving up a chance to land Angle or HHH in the first round.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:31

well, we have been discussing last minute changes to keepers. so you can't rule that out now. so if we are going with this system to determine draft position I intend to make a move until I get a top 2 pick.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:32

I thought we were using overall points? If we aren't yet we should be. Not starting guys is your own fault the way I look at it. If I had known I would have benched Big Show a month ago knowing I had no chance.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:32

Mike D
Or, we can keep it as above and allow for the "strategy" of keeping a lesser point scorer (Dawn Marie) to improve draft position. Up to everyone I guess.

Yes, we should absolutely allow that strategy. We've discussed it several times and I even plan on possibly employing it myself. It was the reason I picked up Mark Henry.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:37

actually Mike D - i don't think anywhere it specifies that any team must retain four keepers - i think that was the maximum, not the minimum.

but, once again, it's one of those things i hesitate to point out, because i think what goatlocker said in post 21 was right on...

as a group, we decided on, and voted on something. it has been discussed numerous times.

i am not comfortable with all these sorts of changes on the fly, especially as the last moment.

yes, once again, i'm biased. but the current draft system is to help with parity, because let's face facts - if the same guys are hanging around the bottom of the standings every year, they won't be part of this league for long, becase they'll get bored.

i'll use myself as an example - i caught some bad breaks this season. Three of my top four draft picks (austin, chavo, orton) missed considerable time due to injuries or because they became inactive as wrestlers. my other top pick - Buh Buh Ray - spent a lot of time off of TV because of the rough style and his "brother" used, which hurt people.

these are things that happen. i'm not complaining about the breaks, but sometimes i wonder "what if" Chavo, Stone Cold, and Orton - who still scored over 500 points - had been active for more than a 1/3 of the season each.

but i've accepted it, and it helps me for next season that Chavo didn't earn a lot of points because of his injury. he has the *potential* to score some serious points this season. my squad has a lot of potential, but with the exception of mr. dudley, i don't have anyone on my team who scored 300 points this season.

look at Kev's team - he finished in third place - but his keepers are awful - he lost Eddy Guerrero and Chris Benoit, and he's got a GM and an announcer turned wrestler as keepers. His team will struggle this season, but because his keepers are fairly lousy, he'll get a decent draft pick to help him from totally being a bottom feeder all year long.

look at the flipside - Species - he's our league champ, and i hate to say it, but he's got the best keepers in the crew, and even with the last pick in the draft, he could contend next season. he doesn't move up anywhere in the draft, and that's how this system is designed.

Sure, it's gonna knock people down a few pegs - in this instance, Wiggs and Farn.

Farn's got a great leader in Big Show, a solid women's performer in Victoria, and a guy who is on TV just about every week in Rosie S.H.I.T. so he'll pick third instead of second.

Wiggs has two guys who are on TV everyweek in Flair and Goldberg, and often it's in a wrestling capacity. Batista will certainly be on TV every week, and probably with a big push, because that's where he was before he was injured. and Garrison Cade is looking like someone they're gonna give a shot to - he's got a solid chance as a rookie.

and Adam H - well brother, welcome to the league. i'll pray for you, because your team suuuuuuuuuucks... ;o)

peace,
Tree

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:51

I totally agree with tree that we should use the weighed draft order based on strength of keepers. I just believe that when most people voted to count overall points, they intended them to be applied to this formula for determining draft position.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:54

as we speak, i'm doing the math right now, with overall points.

i dont think it will make a difference, but as soon as i'm done, i will post it - probably within 30 minutes....

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 14:57

I appreciate all the work, man. I know its a pita. Thanks.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:13

::sigh:: now that i've done this, it's gonna open up a completely different can of worms. :o)

1. MITH - you got screwed the most - you fell four spots from 4th to 8th.

2. what goes up, must come down. Wiggs, you rose two spots to third. Farn, you got topped by your buddy, and you dropped a spot.

3. there were few other minor changes, but the top 2, and bottom 4, positions stayed the same.

4. and this is the biggie. there are FOUR teams who's "overall" points are actually slightly less than the "eligible" points. the point differentials are small enough that they don't make a difference, but i wanted to point it out before someone noticed and called me out on it. i don't know who screwed up - me or MITH, but what's done is done, and there ain't no going back now. we're people, we make mistakes.

peace,
Can of Worms.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:16

Team	Owner	Keepers	Pts	Pts Rank	Standing	Total	Overall Rank	Draft Pick	Previous	Change
Fock Fear, Drink Beer	Adam H	Noble	873	12	12	24	12	1	1	NC
		Nidia
		Kim
		Golddust
S.C.Y.T.H.E.	Tree	Buh-Buh Ray	1087	11	9	20	10	2	2	NC
		Chavo
		M. Jindrak
		B. Kendrick
Rolling Thunder	Wiggs*	Goldberg	1353	8	10	18	9	3	5*	Up 2
		Batista
		Flair
		Cade
Team Sucka	Farn	Big Show	1454	6	11	17	8.5	4	3	Down 1
		Victoria
		Rosey
		Lawler
Never Leave Your Buddy's Behind	Great One*	Shawn Michaels	1326	9	8	17	8.5	5	6*	Up 1
		Rhyno
		Torrie Wilson
		Ultimo Dragon
Controlled Destruction	Kev	Bischoff	1283	10	3	13	6.5	6	7*	Up 1
		Kidman
		Hurricane
		Coach
Old Italian Disorder	Mist	Test	1519	5	7	12	6	7	8	Up 1
		C. Palumbo
		Undertaker
		Bradshaw
Flying Jalapenos	MITH	V. McMahon	1534	4	6	10	5	8	4	Down 4
		Trish
		Rodney Mack
		Nunzio
Eight Henchmen	Goat Locker	A-Train	1417	7	2	9	4.5	9	9	NC
		D-Von
		R. Dupre
		Doug Basham
It's Not for Everyone	Mike D	Kane	1672	2	5	7	3.5	10	10	NC
		Tajiri
		Jazz
		Gowan
Team Bring It	Blue Hen & Mach*	Benjamin	1619	3	4	7	3.5	11	11	NC
		Grenier
		Lita
		The Rock
Endangered	Species*	Benoit	2071	1	1	2	1	12	12	NC
		Christian
		M. Hardy
		S. McMahon

Pts = Keeper Pts
Pts Rank = Order of Keeper Pts
Standing = Finishing position
Total = Standing plus Pts Rank
Overall Rank = Total divided by two
Draft Pick = Ranking over Overall Rank
Previous = draft pick under "eligible pts"
Change = plus/minus from previous

* Ties in Overall Rank broken by
worst finishing position getting higher
draft pick

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:26

Back when I was initially putting the overall tallies together I figured that might happen once we compared our results. Now, are these final or is there still a window for adjusting keepers. And if so, how much longer is it open?

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:35

I believe Tree said 7pm was the cutoff to adjust keepers.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:35

i'm about to run out and do laundry, so i'll be gone for a couple hours, but right now i'm casting my vote that the only way keepers can be changed as originally posted is if someone is seriously injured - legit - on Raw tonight.

i am opposed to the whole idea of tweaking rosters for better draft positioning, because sooner or later everyone is gonna dump every player they have just to maintain, and then this might as well not be a keeper league - and i know that's ok with Mike D, but that's not the point. :o)

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:43

Tree- didn't you say we had til 7pm to change? You never said it had to be an injury. Injury only came in if you wanted to change after 7pm.

That said I am deciding who I am dropping to keep Molly or Dreamer. Falling to 4th pick would be useless to me.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:52

let me start the switching parade...

Switch Rosie to Molly Holly.

Current Keepers now:
Big Show
Victoria
Molly
Lawler

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:53

OK,
Decide what you want and I'll go with it.
I just want to draft and get back playing.
That is the whole intent of this.

Cliff

kev
ID: 3155515
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 15:59

awful keepers?

Your right!

kev
ID: 3155515
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 16:01

I actually kept Coach because he is having a push right now....Nash is old, and is on TV half the time.

Bischoff is actually a nice guy to have. He has a match here and there, and is a garunteed points guy every week.

I need a Hurricane push...Kidman is back, and is going to be good.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:06

i'm sorry there was ever any suggestion of changing keepers, and i'll regret if we allow such a thing to go on.

to me, whether within the rules or not, changing one's keepers just because of what other people have, is tantamount to cheating. i'm not calling anyone a cheater here, but i see no difference between what is going on here, and being able to change one's bet in a poker game after being able to see everyone else's hand.

keepers should be posted once, and what's done is done, barring injury. i made a mistake in suggesting an opportunity to re-arrange, because i presumed people would do it just because of second thoughts, not to better a draft position.

if we wanted to do it to better a draft position, we should have posted keepers. then 24 hours have a final keeper posting. the difference is that there would have been no posting of numbers or anything like that, and no discussion, and that way, there is no tipping of the hand.

i simply think we screwed up, and the original keepers posted should be the keepers maintained.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:11

Agree with Tree 43

Cliff

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:31

What a mess! Minimum number of keepers? Maximum?

(Just throw everyone back in, and redraft, goshdarnit!)

Doesn't matter to me at all guys, really.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:40

I see both positions. My plan from the beginning was to post the 4 keepers I did and then decide wheth I wanted to replace Rodney Mack with Mark Henry, depending on my draft position and whether the difference will help it. My draft position is poor and and the change will clearly help, so I do want to make that switch. But I've made plenty enough waves as it is in the past few days, so if the established keepers in the Postseason Keepers thread are going to remain with no changes being made, then I will be happy with what I have. I'm not going to push this issue, but if any changes are allowed to the established keepers, then I want Henry rather than Mack.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:43

Given the wrench that it would throw into the keeper evalulating, I believe we must have a minimum of 4 keepers. Really, if we are allowed to carry fewer than 4, my best strategy might be to keep Vince and Trish and no one else. I don't think it would serve the league well to allow that.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 17:52

go here to vote because we've got to settle this issue.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 21337614
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 18:23

I guess i just dont understand why it isnt just reverse order for the finish. I shouldnt be punished 2 years in a row because i picked 3 guys that didnt play the whole season. I finished 10th this year, and i should get the 3rd over all pick. In any other fantasy keeper leagues the draft goes by finish, not who is eligible to be kept. Seems this system benefits Tree, kev and goatlocker and hurts farn, mike D and BH.

Athletics Guy
ID: 1818115
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 18:54

Changing keepers (Shelton Benjamin to Tim Brown)

Lita
Grenier
The Rock
Tim Brown

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 18:56

exactly why this method is crap.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:02

whatever. it's 7 pm. if we allow these changes, the following post from me is the new draft order.

and we need to find a better method for next year. period.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:05

Vince
Trish
Nunzio
Mark Henry

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:13

Team	Owner	Keepers	Pts	Pts Rank	Standing	Total	Overall Rank	Draft Pick
Fock Fear, Drink Beer	Adam H	Noble	873	11	12	23	11.5	1
		Nidia
		Kim
		Golddust
S.C.Y.T.H.E.	Tree	Buh-Buh Ray	789	10	9	19	9.5	2
		Chavo
		M. Jindrak
		B. Kendrick
Team Sucka	Farn	Big Show	1384	6	11	17	8.5	3*
		Victoria
		Molly Holly
		Lawler
Rolling Thunder	Wiggs*	Goldberg	1353	7	10	17	8.5	4*
		Batista
		Flair
		Cade
Never Leave Your Buddy's Behind	Great One*	Shawn Michaels	1326	8	8	16	8	5*
		Rhyno
		Torrie Wilson
		Ultimo Dragon
Team Bring It	Blue Hen & Mach*	Tim Brown	762	12	4	16	8	6*
		Grenier
		Lita
		The Rock
Controlled Destruction	Kev	Bischoff	1283	9	3	12	6	7
		Kidman
		Hurricane
		Coach
Old Italian Disorder	Mist	Test	1519	4	7	11	5.5	8
		C. Palumbo
		Undertaker
		Bradshaw
Flying Jalapenos	MITH	V. McMahon	1534	3	6	9	4.5	9
		Trish
		Rodney Mack
		Nunzio
It's Not For Everyone	Mike D	Kane	1672	2	5	7	3.5	10*
		Tajiri
		Jazz
		Gowan
Eight Henchmen	Goat Locker	A-Train	1417	5	2	7	3.5	11*
		D-Von
		R. Dupre
		Doug Basham
Endangered	Species*	Benoit	2071	1	1	2	1	12
		Christian
		M. Hardy
		S. McMahon

Pts = Keeper Pts
Pts Rank = Order of Keeper Pts
Standing = Finishing position
Total = Standing plus Pts Rank
Overall Rank = Total divided by two
Draft Pick = Ranking over Overall Rank
Previous = draft pick under "eligible pts"
Change = plus/minus from previous

Ties in Overall Rank broken by
worst finishing position getting higher
draft pick

blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:19

Thanks for posting Tree. Remember (and this is the most important part) - treat this like Survivor or Big Brother. None of this is personal. Mach and I are just playing the game.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:25

Check post 46. My point 'total' should be 1198 with Mark Henry rather than Rodney Mack. My 'points rank' should be 9. My 'overall rank' should be 7.5.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:26

You know what, to hell with what I said in the other thread.

Find a manager to take my team.

I'm done.

Cliff

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:33

Why in the world would you quit now? The whole thing is set, with the exception of the posted draft order needing to be corrected.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:36

We made decisions based on what we said we were going to do and I did that.
Then because people don't like the draft order we go back and change things.

Sorry guys, I'm just done.

Cliff

blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:37

MITH is right. That's an official switch in post 46. He moved up to 7th pick. Bravo for that.

Goatlocker, I can see why you'd be fed up with this, but I really think you shouldn't give up. We'll get this settled soon enough (and move into a really slow draft).

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:41

I made my move and it bought me two slots in the draft order, then everybody sees what I've done and they change to nullify that move.
That's absolute B. S.
That's why I would quit now.
If I'd have known this crap was going on, I'd have never kept Basham, I would have kept Lance Storm.
I did what I did to move up two slots.
Again, it's BS.

Cliff

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:43

sorry MITH - i didn't see that, and i'll change the spreadsheet accordingly...

that being said, i agree 100 percent with what Cliff is saying. while i don't agree with his actions - even though i nearly did it myself - and the only thing that kept me from doing so was cooling off by taking my dog for a walk - he's totally right.

we agreed on something. and then people whined and took advantage of a loophole. and it's frustrating and annoying.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:46

ugh. screw it. i can't post something right now, because it's just gonna change again.

i'm not keen on losing an owner, particularly our runner-up and the guy who led for a large portion of the year.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:47

It was my understanding that rosters would be set and that everyone would have an opportunity to make changes. This was established and the obvious thing to do seemed to be to try to improve our positions.

If you want to quit that is fine, but understand that I believe that everything that has been bickered over this weekend was in earnest attempt on everyone's part to make the league as good as possible. It's just a matter of different opinions and priorities among the members. Regardless, I fully understand if the bickering or chaos has turned you off for good, but please don't sabatoge the rest of us by dropping out so suddenly. Please, at the very least, participate in the draft and act as a interm manager until we can find a replacement for you. I personally like the way this played out. Any league like this is a constant work in progress.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 19:50

64 was not my understanding at all, and that is what I am upset about.
If I'd have known that, then I'd have kept Storm and changed to Basham at the last second.
My understanding was changes could only happen if you had a wrestler injured tonite.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:00

the closest we came to any discussion of swapping about keepers came in post 22 of this thread.

i made the suggestion in that post about possibly changing around keepers because numerous people wanted to "reserve the right" to swap keepers around, and i felt some sort of deadline had to be levied.

i made the suggestion to be a nice guy - to allow for some honest change of hearts - absolutely NOT to allow people to improve draft position.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:04

Post 2, by Species: Reserving the right to change it before the draft starts...... Your Beloved Champions, Endangered, will keep the following:

Post 4, by Goatlocker:
Also reserving the right to change it before the draft starts...... Your Sucky second or third place team, Eight Henchmen, will keep the following:

Post 22, by Tree:
1. Keepers must be finalized by 7 p.m. eastern Monday night. this allows me a little bit of time to finalize and post the draft order.

Now, nobody mentioned anything about needing to see a wrestler go down with injury until later in post 22 of that thread, when tree typed:

3. Injury exemption - if one of your keepers suffers a serious injury during raw - the kind of injury that could keep him/her out of action for a long time, you can change that keeper by 12 noon eastern on Tuesday. but you can only do this for ONE team member - if two guys break their legs, you're SOL.

I didn't understand this when I read it, as I was under the impression from the previous threads that we had the right to make a change until the deadline. This was my plan all along, since before Friday. I was going to raise the issue but when I read posts 2 and 4 in that thread back on Friday and no one raised issue with them, it seemed like my thinking was the consensus.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:16

the difference, i think, is the presumption that the purpose of "reserving the right" to change keepers was not for the purpose of getting a better draft position, but rather an honest change of heart.

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:19

Exactly, if I'd have known from the beginning I had draft choice #11, I would have kept Lance Storm and not Doug Basham.
The only reason I kept Basham was to move up.
Once I did that, then it made it obvious to others what they had to do to move around me.
I never thought I could change after the fact to move draft positions.

Cliff

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:36

Tree,
If you're still around, send me an email.

Cliff

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:39

Wow, these developments are lame. The rules have constantly changed-----or their interpretations have changed----as the season has gone on. I've chalked it up to a low stress/group created league that will evolve. I certainly prefer having laid out rules that aren't changing. I thought Tree leaving that window to change keepers was ludicrous. But figured it wouldn't really be taken advantage of anyway, as he said, unless there was injury, so whatever.

And all those "reserve the right" things were ridiculous----unless a lot of time dragged on to the draft (a week etc).

Not a whole lot of fun right now guys. That's the only reason I'm here. It ain't the cash prizes. Now I feel bad for even mentioning this league to Adam H.

Hey Tree----still like keepers? ;)

wiggs
Donor
ID: 27735145
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:42

i still havent gotten an answer to my post 49. I would really like an answer. Nothing personal tree, but i think if this would have cost you 2 spots instead of giving you 2 then you would have different feelings about all this. i dont remember reading anything about points from keepers effecting draft position for future drafts, if i missed it then that is my mistake, but either way, draft should be in reverse order from the finish reguardless of keepers.

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 141211615
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:43

Cliff,

At this point, what's one is done. Consider that all of these details will have been hammered out in plenty of time for our next draft.

Once the draft has finished, I think I will propose we elect a commish and declare specifically what his responsibilities and authority will be. A long time ago I considered doing that but the league seemed to be running really smoothly without one and I figured it wasn't broke. But it seems to me that having an elected authority figure here might have helped to avoid some or most of this weekend's chaos. But I don't want to think about that until the draft is done.

Anyhow, I'm sure that I speak for everyone when I say that we would not like to see our 2nd place manager leave the league, but if you still feel it's best, I request that you please stick around and participate long enough for us to replace you.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:43

It was in one of those old threads somewhere wiggs, so you'll get a "we discussed it" answer. Even though the formula was clear as mud.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:44

Why is what's done, done? Why ruin the good stuff that has taken place with these rash decisions?

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:45

lol. i do like keeper leagues mike d.

what i don't like is the fact that right now i feel like a heel - not in the wrestling sense - but like...i left that window open to be a nice guy - because hey, we change our minds sometimes.

because, as you said, this was a low-stress/group-created thing. it was fun. it's not fun now.

i wish i had just said - nope, once keepers are posted, they're final, with the Michael Vick Rule being the exception. by not being firm, i opened up a huge can of worms - i feel at fault, but i will say i honestly didn't even think there would be the sort of manuevering around that has happened.

it just didn't enter my mind, because of how the league has gone so far.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 27735145
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:47

i guess i just didnt understand the idea. Am i the only one that feels keepers shouldnt matter, because if i am then i will drop it, just seems pretty crappy i should be punished for having 3 good wrestlers and 2 crappy all season, leaving me in 10 or 11th place all season and still not get a top 3 draft choice.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:50

alright, as much as this crushes any hope of me getting one of the three guys I want...

1. go with the originally posted keepers, no changes allowed (barring Mike Vick).

2. Go with this crazy points system to determine the draft and lets get rolling.

3. Begin immediately determing a commish and establish a new policy for the draft for Season 3.

Mike D
Donor
ID: 23715270
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:50

It would prevent all this dancing and make things pure, IMHO, wiggs.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 20:52

Btw, i like wiggs idea as well. In any sport the worst teams always draft first, no matter who they have left on their roster.

That said I am still ok with this point system to determine draft order because that was the original plan. But I would be fine with the order of finish determines draft as well. But lets act fast.

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:02

as for the draft - we voted on a system - and at the very list, i think we have to keep it for this draft. we voted on it, and we discussed it recently, after we'd voted on it.

as i stated earlier, in a league like this with a small roster and a small talent pool, a major injury can take you out of the running for the season, and this system helps compensate for that the following season.

blue hen
Leader
ID: 331038201
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:03

For what it's worth, Mach and I never intended to keep Shelton Benjamin (as long as his keeper points lowered our draft position). That's why we picked up Tim Brown, of course.

The Mike Vick Rule is crap. In football or in here.

But the bottom line is this... you make the rules and we'll live with it. Who "you" is, I'm not so sure, but I just want to move forward with this and have wrestlers to cheer for every week.

That's right, wrestlers to cheer for every week. I stopped watching wrestling when I didn't ever have my guys on. Let's keep this league interesting or I'm sure other people will want to quit too...

wiggs
Donor
ID: 27735145
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:05

tree, please show me where i voted that we count points from the keepers and count them against the draft? I sure as hell dont remember voting in favor of that.

wiggs
Donor
ID: 27735145
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:11

post 23

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:20

BTW Cliff, i emailed you, but my regular email server isn't working right, so i dont know if you got it..if not..shoot me an email...

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:26

Wiggs - no, you didn't vote for it. in fact, while you weren't completely a dissenting opinion, you did raise an issue.

nonetheless, if you follow the threads, the whole discussion started here in post 44, when MITH said he would like to see the quality of keepers impact your draft position.

in post 45, i proposed a system, and by post 61, a majority had voted in favor. in fact, some of those in favor were enthusiastically in favor.

Farn
Sustainer
ID: 7822711
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:45

this is a disastor. someone needs to take control of this thing before it goes in the toilet completely.

Anyone want to nominate a commish to take control asap?

Tree
Donor
ID: 337442918
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:47

i'm off to bed, because my girl is off to bed. i'll check back in in the morning.

1. we voted on a system MONTHS ago, and it passed in a majority vote. that should end that part of the discussion.

2. i made a mistake in allowing and even mentioning a 24-hour window. i should never have done that. the keepers initially posted should be the keepers kept.

night,
Tree

GoatLocker
Sustainer
ID: 60151121
Mon, Sep 01, 2003, 21:53

OK,
I got in to this to begin with for much the same reason BH just commented on.(That's scary)
I'll stick around, and will leave it up to everybody else to decide what we are doing and I will live with that.
Just let me know when the draft starts.

Cliff

Mattinglyinthehall
Sustainer
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 02, 2003, 15:25

Post 34 is the correct draft order and keeper list.

Forum: genPage 490Subject: Current Draft Order

Forum: gen
Page 490
Subject: Current Draft Order