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| Posted by: Mike D
- Sustainer [41831612] Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:33
As suggested by our new Wrestling Buddy Bond, James Bond, in the aptly named "Bond is Raw" thread, a vote for Blood Points.
1. Should we award Blood Points? Yes/No
2. If Yes, in what amount? 5/7/10/12, other
3. Should the amount of bleeding affect the points given, where voting could be used if necessary to quantify? Yes/No
4. Should whether someone blades or is busted open the hard way be considered, and if so, should more points be given for being busted open the hard way, where voting could be used if necessary? Yes/No
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| | | 1 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:36
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Ha ha! Love the way this shows up in the new Column format of Guru's----every post kicks this thread to the top! Lol!
Anyway, I vote:
1. Yes
2. 7
3. Yes (PPV quality crimson mask could be more than 7. Say 10, etc.)
4. Yes (because we all love to speculate! Hard way could be a few points more)
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| | | 2 | Farn
ID: 36651269
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:44
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I vote no altogether.
I for one will stop scoring Raw if this is counted. Its already difficult enough to score these things. If we try to score blood it will become chaotic. How do we expect to score that if nobody watches/scores Raw or Smackdown as its airing or if nobody tapes it? No detailed report is really going to carry this on a consistent basis so website reports won't help.
Its a funny idea but almost impossible to implement from a scoring standpoint.
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| | | 3 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:45
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1. Yes
2. 5. Or perhaps 5 on TV and 7 or 8 at PPVs.
3. No. I'm of the opinion that we should have as few discretionary issues as possibe, if any at all. Its asking for trouble. No matter how extensively we define the conditions for what amount of points to award, there will always be grey area incidents that will spark arguments that will result in someone coming away slighted.
4. No, sometimes it's hard to tell whether someone bladed or was legitimately busted open, and that brings us to another discretionary issue.
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| | | 4 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:45
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Kinda looks like you're on the fence, Farn, and we really need you to be more clear. ;)
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| | | 5 | Farn
ID: 36651269
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:46
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sorry, I was having trouble seeing the subject clearly. I had bladed and the my screen got a little messy. :)
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| | | 6 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:47
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Excellent point, Farn. I posted before seeing your post. We rely heavily on internet recaps and as far as I know none of those sources makes a point to always report bleeding. I'll retract my yes vote for now.
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| | | 7 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:51
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Well, if ya want the blood points, you gotta watch the show......or not. Farn's vote counts 1 1/2 because he bladed while at work.
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| | | 8 | wiggs
ID: 2739159
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 15:58
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I say no for blood points also for the same reason as farn said.
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| | | 9 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:02
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i'm voting no because blood could be very much subjective.
well, except in the case of the women wrestlers. i mean, once a month, do we automatically reward them with blood points?
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| | | 10 | Farn
ID: 36651269
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:05
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hahahaha lol
thanks tree; i now have to clean both blood and soda off my monitor.
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| | | 11 | Great One@ Work
ID: 18743207
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:17
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great idea, too difficult to score.
perhaps you nominate your guy like we are doing with Heel turns - and it only be with the Crimson Mask... which is pretty obvious.
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| | | 12 | Great One@ Work
ID: 18743207
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:19
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just wanted to see this back in the Forum Topics again...
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| | | 13 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:25
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LMAO!
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| | | 14 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Mon, Aug 23, 2004, 16:47
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LOL....good one, GO.
Although the idea is cool, I vote no based upon Farn's argument.
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| | | 15 | Great One
ID: 27818621
Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 22:20
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well I think Eugene would have earned his blood points tonight.
Anyone think their should be bonuses for match type? The big ones anyway?
Like a 10 point Hell-In-A-Cell bonus or something like that? Seeing the cage match made me think of that.
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| | | 16 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Mon, Sep 06, 2004, 23:59
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I thought of it too.....yeah, might we worth talkin' about.
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| | | 17 | Great One
ID: 27818621
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 00:02
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couldn't be for just any gay stipulation like - The Bullrope match or No DQ etc... but Hell in a Cell, Cage, Ladder, Elimation Chamber, TLC etc... thats something I think we completely neglected and should have considered. Easy to define and score too.
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| | | 18 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 00:14
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Right
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| | | 19 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 00:15
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Bra and panties, pool full of cream, those types.....lol
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| | | 20 | Tree
ID: 87562618
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 07:05
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why not a bullrope match?
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| | | 21 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 08:46
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cause it's never gonna happen again.
maybe we could do a generic 5 points for matches like the Bullrope match - but elevate the numbers for Hell in a Cell (the highest of course) maybe like 15 and 10 for a Cage.
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| | | 22 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 11:34
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A proposal with specifics needs to be crafted. I would be in favor.
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| | | 23 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 11:40
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By listing specifics, +5 for no DQ, + 10 for cage, +15 for TLC (or whatever) we open ourselves up to a couple of issues. What happens if they have a no DQ/TLC/Cage match? +30? What happens if they invent a new gimick for a match? 0 extra points since it isn't on our list?
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| | | 24 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 14:11
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What happens if they have a no DQ/TLC/Cage match?
Then we would all probably actually order the PPV! :)
but seriously... just make a "no combining" rule or limit of some sort. Because obviously - for example - a Hell in a Cell is by default a no DQ match...
Taking a crack at writing out the details before the formal thread and vote -
A participant cannot recieve more than one Stipulation Bonus per match. They recieve the highest bonus they are eligible for. For example -if its a TLC/Bra+Panties match. And TLC is agreed at 10. And Bra+Panties is 5. The particpants get the 10 and thats it.
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| | | 25 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 14:17
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anyone want to take a crack at listing all known match types? At least the major ones anyway... we can make all the other random ones 5 points.
I can give it a shot tonight if nobody else can.
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| | | 26 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 14:47
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Agree with Mike D - you get the highest single "stipulation match bonus" available.
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| | | 27 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:05
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starting a rough outline and getting... cut and paste and add/subtract matches and the way you see this broken down with your opinions...
hopefully by the end here we have the numbers worked out and most matches addressed to add to a formal proposal Voting thread. If a new match comes up - we can as a group decide its point value using this as a basis. It would have to be something significant to get in the upper levels though...
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Table Match?
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
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| | | 28 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:05
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What counts as a stipulation? No DQ would be one, right? How about more than one fall? I think that pool of pudding matches and such are usually scored as in-ring vignettes in this league. How about tag matches with more than 4 people? How about mixed tag matches? What about an I quit match? What if the stipulation has something to do with the fate of a wrestler or diva not in the actual match, like a 'til death do us part' match or the Test/Steiner match for Stacy Kiebler?
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| | | 29 | Species
Leader
ID: 07724916
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:08
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I definitely vote for an increase to 15 points in a casket match where you are buried dead.
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| | | 30 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:11
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LMFAO!
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| | | 31 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:14
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I see tag matches as... well, tag matches no matter how many people involved. As far as the i.e. til death do us part match. I think that the stipulation has to relate to HOW the match is decided. Not WHAT it decides.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Table Match?
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
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| | | 32 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:16
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Isn't an 'I quit' match one where the loser must quit the WWE, like Big Show lost?
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| | | 33 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:16
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yeah, I'll give ya that one... :) lol...
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Table Match?
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
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| | | 34 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:17
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Falls count anywhere should be added, I suppose.
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| | | 35 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:17
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I was thinking the I Quit where Rock made Foley say it into the microphone and thats how they finished the match.
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| | | 36 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:28
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OK your right, after a little research, an I quit match is what you describe. So any wager based on the outcome of the match should not be considered a stipulation for our purposes?
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| | | 37 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:36
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I was pretty strongly against this at first, now I'm teetering. One thing I think the rule should be absolutely clear about is that if a match stipulation that we have not listed is brought in it should automatically get either no points or the minimum (5 points) for a stipulation, no matter how dynamic it might seem, Nuclear Holocost match or a Biblical Armegeddon match or whatever it might be.
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| | | 38 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:36
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Yeah I think that will be easiest to determine.
You see me climb the ladder and win. Thats definitive. Or climbing out of the cage. Or a match that is organized specially (as was added below)...
Getting a date with Stacy because you won (or even Til Death Do Us Part which was pretty cool) aren't really any different than normal matches IMO.
forgot a VERY important Stipulation match which is certainly deserving. The 60 minute Ironman.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Table Match?
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
2/3 Falls
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| | | 39 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:39
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did we decide on 2/3 falls type matches?
or a traditional Survivor Series match? I am not how to categorize those.
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| | | 40 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:39
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What if they do something like 4/7 falls? Maybe you should just have one stip for a multiple falls match.
Also don't forget a lumberjack match (I suggest 10 points for that).
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| | | 41 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:42
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very good.. "Multiple Falls Match" couldn't think how to word that... Lumberjack another good one.
If we could get someone to look in one of the video games that would be a good list.
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| | | 42 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:45
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There's another kind of match who's name I can't remember. You have to beat one guy, hen the next guy, then the next guy and the next and so on. We used to call it King of the Mountain in high school wrestling practice. I know that Chave won one of these kinds of matches, probably late in Season 2 or early Season 3.
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| | | 43 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:45
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getting more and more organized...
And yes, any new stipulation would recieve 0 or 5 assuming it fits into that group well. And if its really unique - then I think we would need to see a match completed before voting on how much its worth in the future.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
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| | | 44 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:48
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also remember Contract on a Pole match.. but I think that would easily just slide into the 5 point bracket.
Gauntlet?
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| | | 45 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:53
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Yes that was it, a gauntlet match. 10 points?
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| | | 46 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:55
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I would say 10 for the guy who keeps fighting yeah... not the other guys that rotate in.
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| | | 47 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:56
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Do we know exactly what the rules are? What about the rules for a traditional Survivor Series match?
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| | | 48 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:57
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why is a casket match worth more than a cage match? or a ladder match? or an i quit match, for that matter?
it's one of the lamest matches ever.
even more lame than a texas bullrope match, which, if done right, kicks ass.
even more lame than a coal miner's glove match,which, if done right, is still stupid.
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| | | 49 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 15:58
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Coal Miner's glove match. LOL. But that's one of my issues with this idea. There might be 100 different kinds of stipulations.
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| | | 50 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:00
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alright alright.. we bump casket back down to 10 where it belongs... :)
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Gauntlet (for primary participant only)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
Anything on a Pole Match
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| | | 51 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:07
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And Jello? What about the Jello?
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| | | 52 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:12
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I think the women's jello/pudding matches are usually counted as in-ring vignettes, Mike D. Sorry. But the "anything on a Pole" match conjured an image from a bachelor party I was part of over the weekend.
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| | | 53 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:12
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I would say if they ring a bell - and someone has their hand raised at the end. Then by all means... 5 point Jello or Mud bonus.
We just need to come up with generic titles for those types of matches or weapons matcheslike Tree was mentioning and have them be 5 points until we decide it deserves consideration to a higher tier on our current 3 Tier system.
will these broad categorizations do?
Weapons Match
Foreign Substance Match (Mud/Jello)
and yes Tree - Stairway to Hell would be a 15 pointer - but we will NEVER see it in WWE so its irrelevant.
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| | | 54 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:16
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but I guess what MITH says is true too - I think the mud/jello match is up to the discretion of the scorer. IF its in the ring and is like a normal match - just with mud all over the place then sure. If in a pool on the entrance way and really not official... guess we keep that as a vignette...
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| | | 55 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:19
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What about a 3 or 4 way single elimination match?
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| | | 56 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:23
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I don't know about that. or a TripleThreat/3-Way Dance. I don't think those deserve it really.
Not sure about elimination type matches. I would lean towards no but I can't explain why.
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| | | 57 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:24
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Re post 53, we could call it a "pool of fluid match". 'Foreign substance' leaves too much potential for a stip relating to something like Tajiri-mist.
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| | | 58 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 16:29
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15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Gauntlet (for primary participant only)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
Anything on a Pole Match
Pools of Fluid Match
Weapons Match
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| | | 59 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 17:02
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I've seen them be out of the ring in a corner of the arena, so as to not get the ring all messed up. But they ring the bell and have a match.
Remember the Cat flashing everyone??
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| | | 60 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 17:12
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what about a scaffold match? i think that deserves a 50 point bonus, and a 100 point bonus for the guy who takes the bump off the scaffolding.
oh, and man, don't forget the Prince of Darkness match. that deserves like a 7 1/2...it's even cooler than the coal miner's glove match...
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| | | 61 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 20:27
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Barb wire? Flaming table? Street Fight?
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| | | 62 | Great One
ID: 55827719
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 20:30
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please let me know the last time any of those occured in WWE in the last few years... added Street Fight.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Gauntlet (for primary participant only)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
Anything on a Pole Match
Pools of Fluid Match
Weapons Match
Street Fight
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| | | 63 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 20:34
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Actually Street Fights are a couple a year. The others? E-C-Dub!
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| | | 64 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 21:23
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OK, pulled out my 'Smackdown Shut Your Mouth' game instructions.
Hardcore match
Tornado Tag match
Elimination Tag match
Last Man Standing
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| | | 65 | Great One
ID: 55827719
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 23:04
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not sure if those tag matches count. at least not he tornado one - cause thats just a tag match where all four are in the ring. along the lines of the three way dance not being included.
The elmination is a question as mentioned before. I guess 5 points bonus for that format is worthwhile.
Especially for an official Survivor Series match.
Important to note Battle Royal/Royal Rumble not included because they are their own monster which has been dealt with seperately and are now scored accordingly.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Gauntlet (for primary participant only)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
Anything on a Pole Match
Pools of Fluid Match
Weapons Match
Street Fight
Hardcore Match
Last Man Standing
Elmination (i.e. Survivor Series)
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| | | 66 | Tree
ID: 87562618
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 23:07
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wait about a hair match? did we mention that?
oh yea. as long as we got the coal miner's glove match and the prince of darkness match, we can't forget the kennel from hell match.
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| | | 67 | Mattinglyinthehall
ID: 217351118
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 23:32
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I thought a tornado tag match meant more than two teams.
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| | | 68 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 041831612
Tue, Sep 07, 2004, 23:57
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Tornado means they are all in the ring at one time------no tags. I've played a lot of those. ;)
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| | | 69 | blue hen
ID: 353412123
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 00:33
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What about a will you marry me match?
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| | | 70 | Farn
ID: 36651269
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 00:33
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I've been out of town all weekend so excuse my tardiness.
I'm just not a huge fan of this whole proposal. It just seems like a lot more scoring to do. And we have enough problems getting scoring done now. I have basically handled 95% of the Raw scoring. Smackdown has been hit and miss amongst a few people.
To add more scoring things to the mix will make it even harder. And we are also opening things up to subjective rulings on weird matches they make up on a random Raw. Just seems like a lot more headaches and debates.
But I can go with the flow if we can really make this ironclad without subjective material (or as best we can outside of bizzarre things).
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| | | 71 | Athletics Guy
ID: 45811717
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 00:54
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Musical chairs!
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| | | 72 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 08:30
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This hasn't been put to a vote yet.
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| | | 73 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 08:43
|
The Taker/JBL match at No Mercy will be a Last Ride match. No submission, pinfall or count out. The loser must be thrown in the back of a hearse.
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| | | 74 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 08:50
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I actually don't think there will be that much debate. The majority of these will be 5 point bonus and are pretty obvious where a match type will slide in.
Hell, WWE doesn't do anything revolutionary anyway... we have seen it all before or some variation of it.
I wouldn't mind doing the "stipulation scoring" say with another person like Mike D or Wiggs who I can easily contact if its open to discussion.
I am gonna try and do some Smackdown's this season anyway.
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| | | 75 | Great One@Home
ID: 18743207
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 08:58
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#73 has a great similarity to a Casket Match. So I would score it as such.
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| | | 76 | Tree
ID: 76471215
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 15:00
|
what about a kiss or burn the flag match? or a broiler room brawl? or a car trunk match?
or a flaming dumpster match?
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| | | 77 | Bond, James Bond
ID: 55814822
Wed, Sep 08, 2004, 23:31
|
Just back from an overextended Labor Day weekend vacation and I come back to this? LOL
In honor of the title of this thread, shouldn't there be a point stipulation for a "First Blood" match?
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| | | 78 | Great One
ID: 3481898
Thu, Sep 09, 2004, 09:33
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first blood match... very good.
15
Hell in a Cell
TLC
Elimination Chamber
Ironman
10
Cage Match
Ladder Match
Tables Match
Lumberjack
Casket Match (Buried Alive)
Gauntlet (for primary participant only)
5
No DQ
Bra and Panties
I Quit
Falls Count Anywhere
Multiple Falls
Anything on a Pole Match
Pools of Fluid Match
Weapons Match
Street Fight
Hardcore Match
Last Man Standing
Elmination (i.e. Survivor Series)
First Blood
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| | | 79 | Mattinglyinthehall
Leader
ID: 1629107
Thu, Sep 09, 2004, 09:36
|
Whats a broiler room brawl? Is it actually boiler room brawl? Either way, what is it?
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| | | 80 | Great One
ID: 3481898
Thu, Sep 09, 2004, 09:38
|
its essentially a Street Fight and would be scored the same...
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| | | 81 | Mike D
Sustainer
ID: 41831612
Thu, Sep 09, 2004, 09:59
|
Mankind was famous for them.
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| | | 82 | Bond, James Bond
ID: 1399817
Sun, Oct 10, 2004, 00:59
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With Kane blading on Monday's RAW, this was another opportunity to award blood points. In context, blood points (3, 5 or even 10 points) should be applied, IMHO, if the INTENT was to have a wrestler bleed. Clearly this one of those instances.
Obviously with such a physical sport as wrestling there will be numerous times where accidental bleeding will occur. Points should NOT be awarded under that scenerio. However, it's my contention that intentional bleeding/blading is, for the most part, quite obvious to the common viewer in regards to both the performer and the story that is being told within the context of the match.
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Sustainer
ID: 451044109
Sun, Oct 10, 2004, 09:52
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I don't think we want to differentiate. If we are gonna do blood then it shouldn't matter. If somebody bleeds at their job on accident they should still be rewarded. :)
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